AggieRain said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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K - change everywhere I said church of Satan to Islam and reread the post. I think that you think technicality stops my argument, but it really doesn't. How will Christina react when we start having Muslim prayers on the loudspeakers?

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Honestly don't care. Throw a Jewish prayer in there as well.

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I get that. And if we all decided on a rotating system of letting everyone get a chance, then fine. I'm skeptical about it working and part of my instinct to have no prayer may be a "if the kids are gonna fight over what we watch on tv, no one gets to watch anything." Sorta reaction on my part.

kurt vonnegut said:

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AggieRain said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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K - change everywhere I said church of Satan to Islam and reread the post. I think that you think technicality stops my argument, but it really doesn't. How will Christina react when we start having Muslim prayers on the loudspeakers?

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Honestly don't care. Throw a Jewish prayer in there as well.

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I get that. And if we all decided on a rotating system of letting everyone get a chance, then fine. I'm skeptical about it working and part of my instinct to have no prayer may be a "if the kids are gonna fight over what we watch on tv, no one gets to watch anything." Sorta reaction on my part.

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So just curious, were you raised in a Christian background?

kurt vonnegut said:

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K - change everywhere I said church of Satan to Islam and reread the post. I think that you think technicality stops my argument, but it really doesn't. How will Christina react when we start having Muslim prayers on the loudspeakers?

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It's not a technicality; it's the entire point as it pertains to satanists. An invocation's purpose is to invoke something. If you don't believe in anything that can be invoked it's absurd to complain about not being included.

There was a time when a man demanding tampons would have been equally absurd…

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Quote:

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The African Christian churches are shining beacons to the rest of the world right now if you're a conservative Christian.

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Didn't Uganda just make being gay a capital offense? Is that what you mean by a "shining beacon"?

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And then Sapper drops in with the philosophical equivalent of "how long have you been beating your wife?"

Just for fun, how do you feel about these laws? What do you think should be done about it?

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African Christian leaders have been behind or supportive of legislation like this.

Are you really asking how I feel about laws that threaten to execute people for who they are, who are not harming others? Not a fan. What should be done? Until the law is repealed, any financial support to Uganda should be placed under a microscope and cut where it makes sense.

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So you feel that we know better than them, their beliefs are wrong, and it is our duty to punish them until they agree with your beliefs?

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Are you defending a law that punishes being gay with the death penalty? Should we monetarily support a government or churches that support that? I'm not claiming Uganda had no right to pass that law, I'm suggesting we should not support such a law and I question what is valued when you hold up those who support it as exemplars of the faith.

Sapper Redux said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Quote:

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The African Christian churches are shining beacons to the rest of the world right now if you're a conservative Christian.

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Didn't Uganda just make being gay a capital offense? Is that what you mean by a "shining beacon"?

---

And then Sapper drops in with the philosophical equivalent of "how long have you been beating your wife?"

Just for fun, how do you feel about these laws? What do you think should be done about it?

---

African Christian leaders have been behind or supportive of legislation like this.

Are you really asking how I feel about laws that threaten to execute people for who they are, who are not harming others? Not a fan. What should be done? Until the law is repealed, any financial support to Uganda should be placed under a microscope and cut where it makes sense.

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So you feel that we know better than them, their beliefs are wrong, and it is our duty to punish them until they agree with your beliefs?

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Are you defending a law that punishes being gay with the death penalty? Should we monetarily support a government or churches that support that? I'm not claiming Uganda had no right to pass that law, I'm suggesting we should not support such a law and I question what is valued when you hold up those who support it as exemplars of the faith.

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Someone tell me why we should respect their "right" to pass that type of law?

Macarthur said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Quote:

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The African Christian churches are shining beacons to the rest of the world right now if you're a conservative Christian.

---

Didn't Uganda just make being gay a capital offense? Is that what you mean by a "shining beacon"?

---

And then Sapper drops in with the philosophical equivalent of "how long have you been beating your wife?"

Just for fun, how do you feel about these laws? What do you think should be done about it?

---

African Christian leaders have been behind or supportive of legislation like this.

Are you really asking how I feel about laws that threaten to execute people for who they are, who are not harming others? Not a fan. What should be done? Until the law is repealed, any financial support to Uganda should be placed under a microscope and cut where it makes sense.

---

So you feel that we know better than them, their beliefs are wrong, and it is our duty to punish them until they agree with your beliefs?

---

Are you defending a law that punishes being gay with the death penalty? Should we monetarily support a government or churches that support that? I'm not claiming Uganda had no right to pass that law, I'm suggesting we should not support such a law and I question what is valued when you hold up those who support it as exemplars of the faith.

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Someone tell me why we should respect their "right" to pass that type of law?

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I'm not sure the pro-abortion, pro-transitioning minors lobby should opine on the morality of Africans. Stop colonizing bipoc countries and peoples.

Macarthur said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Quote:

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The African Christian churches are shining beacons to the rest of the world right now if you're a conservative Christian.

---

Didn't Uganda just make being gay a capital offense? Is that what you mean by a "shining beacon"?

---

And then Sapper drops in with the philosophical equivalent of "how long have you been beating your wife?"

Just for fun, how do you feel about these laws? What do you think should be done about it?

---

African Christian leaders have been behind or supportive of legislation like this.

Are you really asking how I feel about laws that threaten to execute people for who they are, who are not harming others? Not a fan. What should be done? Until the law is repealed, any financial support to Uganda should be placed under a microscope and cut where it makes sense.

---

So you feel that we know better than them, their beliefs are wrong, and it is our duty to punish them until they agree with your beliefs?

---

Are you defending a law that punishes being gay with the death penalty? Should we monetarily support a government or churches that support that? I'm not claiming Uganda had no right to pass that law, I'm suggesting we should not support such a law and I question what is valued when you hold up those who support it as exemplars of the faith.

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Someone tell me why we should respect their "right" to pass that type of law?

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I'm not going to say the US should be dictating how governance happens in other countries. Doesn't mean we should turn a blind eye or support it or fail to help those harmed.

dermdoc said:

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So just curious, were you raised in a Christian background?

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yes

kurt vonnegut said:

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dermdoc said:

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So just curious, were you raised in a Christian background?

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yes

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May I ask what made you change?

AGC said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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K - change everywhere I said church of Satan to Islam and reread the post. I think that you think technicality stops my argument, but it really doesn't. How will Christina react when we start having Muslim prayers on the loudspeakers?

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It's not a technicality; it's the entire point as it pertains to satanists. An invocation's purpose is to invoke something. If you don't believe in anything that can be invoked it's absurd to complain about not being included.

There was a time when a man demanding tampons would have been equally absurd…

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No, it is a technicality. As far as I'm concerned, a Satanist could invoke or make appeal to some principle ideal in their ideology. And if you disagree with that definition of 'invocation', then fine. Satanism is the example used, but my argument has never been contingent on Satanism specifically. A muslim demanding the right to provide an invocation at a small town Texas city council meeting or provide a prayer at a school football game may not elicit quite the same level of protest, but it has and will draw some.

dermdoc said:

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May I ask what made you change?

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Probably more than you wanted, but -

Just stopped believing it around age 18 or 19. But, I also think there were a few people that inadvertently influenced it. I never had any 'bad' experiences, if that is what you mean.

I went to a Catholic school until about age 13 and I remember always being skeptical about things being taught. . . . like some of the things being taught just didn't make sense. Why would God create a race of beings to worship Him? Or, if you are going to create a race of beings, stick them in Utopia / Heaven to begin with - why mess with all this? Why create a Hell? And of course, I was given an answers to all of those questions, but they never made sense to me.

Dated a Jewish girl in high school and was questioned by family and friends on my plans for converting her to Christianity. And this girl was universally loved, kind as can be, straight A's, all honors classes, ivy-league bound, involved in about every philanthropic and charitable group at school and at her temple that you can imagine. The idea proposed that she was someone that was bound for Hell or in need or moral saving or guidance from my far less philanthropic brother and friends was absurd to me. Their intentions were totally good, but it still seemed absurd. I only bring up the old girlfriend because it served to push questions and doubts to the forefront.

We amicably broke up before college, I went to church for about 6 more months before realizing I had a very superficial level of understanding and belief and that the more I dove into Christianity the more I couldn't ignore those doubts and questions. Stopped going to church, started dating my future wife 6 months after that. . . also Jewish. I never set out to pursue Jewish women, just sorta happened. One of my wife's childhood best friends is gay. And again, here was another highly intelligent, high achieving, and massively empathetic person and I just couldn't wrap my brain around all of the hate directed toward him.

And I'm fully aware of the shallowness of the incidental criticism of Christianity in the paragraphs above. I didn't leave the faith because I assumed all Christians hated gays and expected all Jews to burn in Hell. These are just moments that forced me to stop being a half-ass Christian. They pushed me to decide if I was 'in' or 'out'.

kurt vonnegut said:

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dermdoc said:

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May I ask what made you change?

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Probably more than you wanted, but -

Just stopped believing it around age 18 or 19. But, I also think there were a few people that inadvertently influenced it. I never had any 'bad' experiences, if that is what you mean.

I went to a Catholic school until about age 13 and I remember always being skeptical about things being taught. . . . like some of the things being taught just didn't make sense. Why would God create a race of beings to worship Him? Or, if you are going to create a race of beings, stick them in Utopia / Heaven to begin with - why mess with all this? Why create a Hell? And of course, I was given an answers to all of those questions, but they never made sense to me.

Dated a Jewish girl in high school and was questioned by family and friends on my plans for converting her to Christianity. And this girl was universally loved, kind as can be, straight A's, all honors classes, ivy-league bound, involved in about every philanthropic and charitable group at school and at her temple that you can imagine. The idea proposed that she was someone that was bound for Hell or in need or moral saving or guidance from my far less philanthropic brother and friends was absurd to me. Their intentions were totally good, but it still seemed absurd. I only bring up the old girlfriend because it served to push questions and doubts to the forefront.

We amicably broke up before college, I went to church for about 6 more months before realizing I had a very superficial level of understanding and belief and that the more I dove into Christianity the more I couldn't ignore those doubts and questions. Stopped going to church, started dating my future wife 6 months after that. . . also Jewish. I never set out to pursue Jewish women, just sorta happened. One of my wife's childhood best friends is gay. And again, here was another highly intelligent, high achieving, and massively empathetic person and I just couldn't wrap my brain around all of the hate directed toward him.

And I'm fully aware of the shallowness of the incidental criticism of Christianity in the paragraphs above. I didn't leave the faith because I assumed all Christians hated gays and expected all Jews to burn in Hell. These are just moments that forced me to stop being a half-ass Christian. They pushed me to decide if I was 'in' or 'out'.

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Thanks for that. I had basically the same experience with my faith. Went to med school at Baylor College of Medicine and this little ol' East Texas boy's eyes were opened wide.

Noted that a lot of the non Christian's were nicer and more loving than the Christians. Completely stopped going to church except when home with family for about ten years. Then I had an encounter with Jesus and everything changed.

I quit looking at Christian people's actions and focused on the Lord.

Finally found shalom.

kurt vonnegut said:

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AGC said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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K - change everywhere I said church of Satan to Islam and reread the post. I think that you think technicality stops my argument, but it really doesn't. How will Christina react when we start having Muslim prayers on the loudspeakers?

---

It's not a technicality; it's the entire point as it pertains to satanists. An invocation's purpose is to invoke something. If you don't believe in anything that can be invoked it's absurd to complain about not being included.

There was a time when a man demanding tampons would have been equally absurd…

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No, it is a technicality. As far as I'm concerned, a Satanist could invoke or make appeal to some principle ideal in their ideology. And if you disagree with that definition of 'invocation', then fine. Satanism is the example used, but my argument has never been contingent on Satanism specifically. A muslim demanding the right to provide an invocation at a small town Texas city council meeting or provide a prayer at a school football game may not elicit quite the same level of protest, but it has and will draw some.

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Purpose matters. Definitions matter. Do you understand now why we seem so stubborn and uncooperative? You argument strips things of meaning (words, ideas, concepts) and renders them worthless. Do we want a free speech moment before council meetings for someone to sing nickelback? Why? How does it contribute to civil government or shared societal values? Might as well do away with it at that point which is the point of satanists' antics! I mean let's face it you're not actually talking about how virtuous they are or how great their ideas are because there is already a group of people that believe the same thing: democrats.

When you look at a definition of a word in a dictionary, why do they sometimes give you multiple definitions? Do we render all words useless by utilizing them differently in different contexts. Do a dictionary search on both 'invoke' and 'invocation'. In both cases, I get two definitions which refer to a deity and one definition that refers to appeal to "principles and methodologies."

You simply cannot accuse me of reckless abandonment of the meaning of words because of a difference of variation on an accepted definition. I very clearly pointed out in my last post that Satanists could appeal to something like an ideology. This tells you the definition of invocation I am using. If you think I've chosen the wrong definition for the context of this discussion, that is totally fine. Completely valid position. But, can you see why I might be frustrated by your accusation that I've stripped 'invocation' of meaning? I applied the definition of invocation that was listed FIRST in my dictionary.

Again, we have to get past the Satanists. I'm willing to concede that they have nothing to invoke if you really think I'm applying the word wrong. Lets stop talking about the Satanists. For literally the third time, the Satanist position is irrelevant to my arguments. This whole thing is a sidebar distraction.

In order to answer your Nickelback question, we first have to define the purpose of civil government and what values we wish for it to enforce. We probably both agree that while playing Nickelback before a city council meeting is relatively harmless, I doubt either of us hold the very specific opinion that local government OUGHT to uphold the value of the greatness of that band.

So, what are the values they should uphold? Rule of law, popular sovereignty, accountability, transparency . . . . ? You tell me! SHOULD local governments uphold religious principles? If so, which ones. How do you decide?

At this point, I'm not even sure I know what you are advocating for beyond you think Christian invocations before public events should be allowed and other invocations that you deem unacceptable should be prohibited.

I think its pretty easy to agree if there are a group of people who want to pray before a meeting and it not be a Christian prayer, thats allowed. Knock yourself out, have a christian prayer, followed by a muslim one, followed by a jewish one, followed by a buddhist one at every football game, sporting event, and public meeting for those who want to sign up and do so.

Where it gets sticky is like in Minneapolis where there are now islamic public calls to prayer over loud speakers. Does free speech/freedom of religion extend to using public PA systems five times a day? Of course, muslims love the public prayer, the non muslims don't.

Again, laws are only a conduit between the morality of people to rules of governing all in a society. If there are a majority of people who think public calls to prayer over loudspeakers, you better get used to the sound of public prayer.

Birthrates and religious affiliation dictate the fates of countries. Over a long enough time frame, everything related to law and law creation is just window dressing.