Evangelism: Acts 2 vs Acts 17

5,374 Views | 64 Replies | Last: 1 yr ago by Howdy Dammit
FIDO95
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AG


This was an interesting video. I have to admit that the concept of "Acts 2 vs Acts 17" evangelizing is a new concept to me but makes a lot of sense. I am still trying to work out various theories being presented here and thus placing it here to get other people's thoughts.

The basic premise is this:
Evangelization in this country has historically focused on an "Acts 2" style in that the audience already had/has an understanding of God. In Acts 2, Peter was sharing the Good News to the Jews and finds good success. A basic foundation of theology and tradition already existed. It was easy to demonstrate to those in attendance how Jesus was the fulfilment of an ancient prophecy they had already accepted.

In Acts 17, Paul is speaking to the Greeks who had no basic understanding of a monotheistic God and/or Jewish tradition. As such, he found their conversion much more challenging. Gen Z is the first post-Christian generation in this country (as such, more "Greek like"). They lack the basic foundation of God as presented in the first books of the Old Testament and as such, "sneer" at the idea of Christ. Instead of focusing on Christ as the fulfilment of prophecy, Paul has to start at square one with the idea that there exists one God who created the universe.
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Martin Q. Blank
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It's much worse. The Greeks at least believed in a supernatural realm.
UTExan
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Our children are handicapped by extreme protectiveness of their parents and authority figures. They need a generational challenge to inspire a hunger for God.
“If you’re going to have crime it should at least be organized crime”
-Havelock Vetinari
Jabin
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Americans and Europeans have been "vaccinated" against God and Christianity. They have been exposed enough to it that they think they understand it but, because of cultural indoctrination, they think that they know that Christianity is not true or relevant.

It is very difficult to evangelize Westerners.
JMR
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S
Thanks for posting the video, I will watch that soon.
Ken Ham has a lot of resources aimed at the younger generations in the US, and why Christian numbers are shrinking.
Have you read Already Gone? Two companion books to it are Already Compromised and Ready to Return.
Helpful to understanding what we are dealing with in relation to op, evangelizing younger post- Christian society.
barbacoa taco
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Finally a topic I am genuinely interested in.

I have a LOT to say about this topic. I can pretty much guarantee the Christians on this board will not like it. As much as I cannot stand Ken Ham, I'll try listening to it to hear his points before responding.

But in short... there is a laundry list of reasons why Gen Z is the least religious generation in... generations...
diehard03
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Quote:

But in short... there is a laundry list of reasons why Gen Z is the least religious generation in... generations...

There's not really a laundry list, right? it's pretty much 1 bullet point - they've connected Christianity to the political right and the political right is full of grifters.

So they throw the whole thing out.
barbacoa taco
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AG
huuuuuuuge oversimplification. that has a lot to do with it but there are a lot more details that are worth discussing.
The Hefty Lefty
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diehard03 said:

Quote:

But in short... there is a laundry list of reasons why Gen Z is the least religious generation in... generations...

There's not really a laundry list, right? it's pretty much 1 bullet point - they've connected Christianity to the political right and the political right is full of grifters.

So they throw the whole thing out.


Are they vehemently rejecting precepts that align with the political left since it's full of grifters?
diehard03
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Quote:

Are they vehemently rejecting precepts that align with the political left since it's full of grifters?

That's missing the point. They don't identify with the left necessarily...they've just picked their bad guy already.
Frok
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My hope is this time of spiritual emptiness leads to a revival of hope that comes from God and not from some better version of ourselves. So many podcasts and books claiming they know the 5-10 "simple" steps to do everything better.

Guess what, you will fail at it. We all have issues and we all need to fix our eyes on something greater than ourselves.



The Banned
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Frok said:

My hope is this time of spiritual emptiness leads to a revival of hope that comes from God and not from some better version of ourselves. So many podcasts and books claiming they know the 5-10 "simple" steps to do everything better.

Guess what, you will fail at it. We all have issues and we all need to fix our eyes on something greater than ourselves.






This is potentially where AI and the metaverse render God "obsolete". The problem with most of today's highs are that you have to come off of them and enter back into the real world to some degree. This will continue for quite some time but if AI can truly render most jobs useless AND give people the technology to live in an alternate universe most of the day ala Ready Player One, reaching people would be essentially impossible.

I'd really like barbacoa to expound upon his thoughts. I see a major disconnect in the missionary efforts of the past 20-30 years and how it reaches the younger generations. It's almost like even asking the question "what is the purpose of life?" Is speaking a foreign language

ETA: it seems like relativism has destroyed any concept of why anyone would "need" a god or anything outside of their own truth. Even bringing in concrete concepts of good and evil get gray very quickly.
barbacoa taco
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AG
I plan to write a long winded response when I have some time, maybe over the weekend. This is a complicated subject and the answer really is not simple. Honestly i could discuss this for hours, it will be hard to condense it into a text post, but I'll try.
PabloSerna
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AG
1. Man is "hardwired" to know God.
2. Gen Z is no different. Bar none- the most engaged our 8th grade RE students are is the session on the existence of God.
3. This alone is why so many keep coming back. Yours truly included.

That said- BTaco will be must read! Lol

barbacoa taco
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Alright, so here we go. Long post alert.

I'm not going to directly respond to most of what Ken Ham says in that video, partly because he pushes the ridiculous young earth nonsense and goes at this from a fundie Christian POV. He likes to blame modern science education and culture war stuff for the lack of faith in Gen Z. And he's partly right! But his premise is all wrong. But I digress...

It's worth noting that Gen Z is only the least religious generation so far. Prior to them, the millennials were. But one could argue we've reached a turning point since Gen Z is described as the "first post-Christian generation." Overall point being, religion is on the decline in the USA and the western world.

If I could boil down the main reasons why this is the case, here they are:

1) Gen Z no longer sees religion as relevant or necessary.
2) Religion does not appeal to Gen Z, at all.
3) Gen Z (and millennials for that matter) have a negative view of religion in general, because they were hurt in some way by their church or religious community.

On to bullet point 1. The relevance of religion.

Here's the generation argument and where I make some concessions about religion.

I can totally see the appeal of religion/Christianity. It has a lot to offer. It provides community, helps people get through hard times, provides a meditative and spiritual experience to people, gives people comfort about death, and provides a sense of identity.

Back in the day, church was the main thing that offered all of these things. That's no longer the case. Younger people find community in a number of places now, and for a lot of them, it's a much better fit than church. That was certainly true for me. It's also a foregone conclusion that one does NOT need religion to have a sense of morality or be a good person, and that there is no correlation between the two. Gen Z rejects the notion that we need church/religion to be moral, and generally has a different sense of morality than generations before (eg being gay is not wrong, premarital sex is not wrong, MJ use is not wrong, abortion should be legal, etc).

As for the science stuff, this is where Ken Ham loses me and a lot of people. Even a rudimentary understanding of biology, astronomy, geology, or paleontology shows that the young earth, literal creation story is complete nonsense. Evolution denial, while still rampant, is much less common with younger people. So if he and others are going to push the YEC theory, that's going to turn off young people fast. Especially those young people who grew up in the church and are questioning things.

Also with internet use being commonplace and more people living in cities, people are now exposed to more people and ideas than before. That affects people's worldview. Religion has outlived its utility for a lot of people. Gen Z does not see it as relevant to everyday life anymore. Europe is already there. Religion is really just a relic of history in Europe and churches are museums.

But you know what religion in America is? A very effective tool at controlling people, which is why it's so prevalent in politics.

Next bullet point, the lack of appeal to Gen Z.

There's really no nice way to say this. Gen Z and a lot of millennials are very turned off by religion. Partly for the reasons above, but largely due to Christians in America (specifically evangelicals). I'm speaking for myself here, but I think a lot of people agree with me: When I think of evangelical American Christians, the words that come to mind are: closeminded, hateful, bigoted, nationalistic, cruel, intolerant, anti-science, anti-LGBT. Am I being harsh? Yes, but in my opinion, it's deserved.

Add in the fact that Christianity in America has become so intertwined with patriotism/nationalism (i.e. Christian nationalism), it's created a very weird and cultlike mentality. As if, we're less American if we aren't Christian. I and many others have a huge problem with that, considering our form of government is explicitly secular and allows for people to freely exercise their religion, or to have no religion.

And now, it's become more aggressive. The bill to put the Ten Commandments in public schools, churches openly supporting political candidates in violation of the law and paying no taxes, and explicit. outward embracing of Christian nationalism. Gen Z sees this and finds it weird and sometimes downright disturbing. Why is the government so aggressively pushing Christianity on people?

Also extreme laws that are clearly based on a (quite fundamentalist) Christian belief. Laws banning abortion with (essentially) no exceptions, laws trying to legislate trans people out of existence, laws intended to make it harder for young people to vote (ok this one is less about religion), laws banning books, and then the blatantly unconstitutional laws mentioned above. It's hard to put into words how repellent and abhorrent Gen Z finds these laws. They are extremely unpopular, and will continue to be a thorn in the GOP's side for years to come.

Now, I'm getting political and I know that. And it's because we've reached a point where religion and politics are intertwined, and you really cannot divorce the two. Evangelicals own the GOP.

Now to the third and most serious point, the fact that many young people have been hurt by religion. Not just religion, but also the incredible influence of religion in government and politics and the effects it has had.

I speak from personal experience, but I know many others have much more serious stories than mine. It can be summed up with the common phrase "there's no hate like Christian love."

The first obvious one is the church's treatment of LGBT people. I am not gay, but I imagine growing up gay in the church (other than the more accepting denominations) must be extremely difficult. Being told time and time again that you are flawed and sinful for your attractions, and that you must change. This causes enormous psychological damage to LGBT young people (and older, for that matter). And now it's gotten worse with people like Abbott and DeSantis actively trying to make their lives more difficult and censor their very existence from others.

But for someone like me who grew up in the church, I simply feel betrayed and lied to. I was an avid participant in my church youth group throughout middle and high school. I went almost every Sunday, I went on frequent weekend retreats, and went to Christian summer camp. I was taught about the teachings of Jesus, the value of caring for others and especially the poor and weak, loving your enemies, and being good stewards of the earth.

American evangelicals are none of these things. The amount of hatred we see coming from Christians and Christian leaders is shocking at times. One that's pretty fresh on my mind is Abbott having the nerve to call 5 dead in Cleveland "illegal immigrants" in an official government statement. They are human beings (one of them was 9). That is an absolutely monstrous level of hate to immediately go there (even though it hadn't been verified). Or Ken Paxton, a self-described Christian. Known for his criminal conduct, unethical conduct, and uses his power to bully people under him (be them his employees or citizens of Texas). Tormenting families of trans kids, cruelly bullying people who unintentionally make a mistake while voting. That man is absolutely consumed by hate.Abbott and Paxton are the faces of evangelical Christians in our state government.

Or as another recent example, we are seeing the gun violence problem getting worse and we are told that after a mass shooting the only thing we should do is pray. What good has come of that? What conclusion can we draw from this other than the fact that God must not care that much?

We also see things like leaders passing problems to future generations without any regard to what they are doing. A selfish mindset of "i'll be dead and gone, so this is your problem." The most obvious example is climate change, a reality that an entire political party denies and always votes against any environmental regulation to address it. Because the money we make now is more important than the future we're creating. Also true with guns, social programs, and education. The boomer attitude of "I got mine, so F you." Passing problems to future generations and not giving a **** about the consequences is just seen as careless and selfish. The older generations (more religious) genuinely seem like they do not care about leaving a better world for younger people. This is seen as very hypocritical.

Then you have Donald Trump. We can debate all day over whether or not he's a sincere Christian (he's not). But he enjoyed wildly high approval from evangelicals. They ****ing loved the guy. He blew George Bush out of the water. I've long wondered why evangelical Christians were so crazy about a guy who is pretty much the least Christian guy ever. Why is that? I'll tell you why: because he is aggressive. He speaks to them and says he'll fight for them. He satisfied their biblical need for vengeance because he promised to destroy their enemies and win at all costs. And to their credit, he did. Trump was a great president for evangelicals, with their biggest victory being him ruthlessly shoving through a Supreme Court nominee, in violation of the precedent the GOP themselves set, in an aggressive ploy to overturn Roe v. Wade.

Which made me and many others come to a realization: the reason Christianity is so prevalent in politics is because it is an extremely effective tool. Trump knew that, and took full advantage of it. Others follow suit.

And it's extremely frustrating for someone like me who truly cares and wants what is best for Texas and America. I want Texas to fix its broken foster care system, fix their broken public schools, do more to fight gun violence, stop interfering in the private lives of LGBT people, and do more to help working people. And then to see them pass laws like forcing schools to display the Ten Commandments and legislating drag shows? it's just heartbreaking at this point.

And we feel very helpless because you really cannot reason with someone who believes God is on their side. All bets are off. If God is on your side, I am automatically wrong.

Basically, I and a lot of others feel betrayed. Being taught all these things as kids and then seeing adults be pretty much the complete opposite of that. "Do as I say not as I do."

This really is just the tip of the iceberg and there's a lot more I could say, but in a nutshell, younger generations notice this stuff. We see the world differently than the generations that came before and the differences are really starting to shine through.

What can reverse this trend? I do not know. In my opinion this ship has sailed, the damage is done. Religion is on its way out. The best thing that Christians can do is to actually be Christlike and loving.

If you read this whole post, thank you. If you were offended by some of the things I said, know that I do not write anything solely to offend. I am not here to make people mad, but to give an honest opinion of how I see things and to not hold anything back.
AGC
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AG
diehard03 said:

Quote:

But in short... there is a laundry list of reasons why Gen Z is the least religious generation in... generations...

There's not really a laundry list, right? it's pretty much 1 bullet point - they've connected Christianity to the political right and the political right is full of grifters.

So they throw the whole thing out.
Klaus Schwab
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What's your framework for morality? I read a lot of "is" and "should" in your post. Do you have anything that avoids relativism?

Also, when you say "Christlike" do you include Christ destroying Sodom and Gomorrah, judging every human soul, calling Jews snakes, etc…? Your post sounds like an average take on Marcionism.

stbabs
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AG
First, before addressing Pablo's "hardwired" assertion, lemme say that b taco's post, while long, was very readable. I'm in general agreement with his comments but back off on the LGBT issue a bit. The left has crawled so deeply into the politics of LGBT that counter reaction from the right and center right is not only predictable but necessary.

Now to Pablo's "hardwired" comment.
While it might seem that humans are some how genetically or supernaturally "hardwired" to knowing God, I believe other factors are at play.
1. Human intellect pushes us to search for answers where answers aren't obvious; origin of life, origin and future of the cosmos, etc. In early and pre-history there wasn't enough scientific knowledge to provide answers, thus "God did it." Science comes along and begins providing answers, but gaps remain. Humans look to God to fill those gaps. Science acts, gaps get smaller. God of the gaps. Humans looking to God for answers where science has yet to provide them? Sure, but hardwired?

2. Cultural/sociological inoculation with religion. All religions, and especially Christianity, begin the inoculation (indoctrination) early. Starting in infancy and early childhood it is intense and ubiquitous in religious families. Implanted during the most formative periods of human development it becomes a part of a person. No thinking required, authority figures told me, that's the way it is. Hardwired? Indoctrination? I think so.

3. Arrogance of humanity: This life can't be all there is. I'm too important for it to all end at death. Thus, the afterlife. There it is! Religion, especially Christianity provides the path to eternal life. Comforting and cause for humans to seek the God who provides eternal life? Sure, but hardwired?

Then there's Ken Ham who wants me to base my faith in God on the foundation laid in Genesis. Packed with glaring errors in cosmology, astronomy, biology and just plain departure from common sense and Ham wants me to base my faith on Genesis. Fundies who want GenZ, or any other age group (I'm solidly in the boomer group) will lose all but those who refuse to think their way out of the indoctrination of their early childhood. YEC fundies and literal interpreters are doing more to lose Gen Z than anything atheism could ever do.

Then, as the less religious generations have kids, and the tendency toward religious indoctrination decreases, the speed of religious demise increases.

I consider the demise of Christianity in America to be a net negative. The teachings of Christ are a positive influence on society. Then again, the happiest, lowest crime rate countries around the world are also the least religious.
Frok
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AG
The thing is of you remove religion it's just replaced by another religion. Our society is now replacing Christianity with secular humanism which has all the indoctrination techniques as any religion. Man is in the center instead of God.

Political grifting is hurting the reach of Christianity but I do think of you get off your phone and interact with people in real life you get a different perspective. The internet wants you to be enraged so they dramatize everything to get you to click.
Klaus Schwab
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1. God of the gaps has nothing to do with Christianity. Christianity is based on encountering the divine. It's not a lack of knowledge, it's experience.

2. Yes human beings raise children in their community for better or worse. This is a universal experience. Secular folk have plenty of issues. Nihilism is the only logical option they ultimately have. Everything else is completely arbitrary, including stating your opinion on this forum if your belief is materialism. This is one reason why depression and suicide are increasing. For example I have a friend who was never raised in church and in college he adopted nihilism. He has good days and bad days but he admits that his life is ultimately meaningless. At one time I would ask him was his wedding meaningless? Family? Moral actions? Unfortunately it's an absurd position so from the Christian perspective prayer is the most powerful tool to help soften the heart of these people. From our perspective this is an illness.

3. The idea of life after death isn't as comforting as you think. Christians are called to purify their souls before judgement and the resurrection. This is why the Ten Commandments are the starting point and from our perspective a very good thing to have in schools. What isn't purified during life carries over to the departed soul. The soul grasps at the passions it once used but with no body it is tormented as there is no resting place for the passion. Christians are called to purify their souls now to prepare for this and unite themselves to uncreated energies that are eternal. This is a very difficult process.
barbacoa taco
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AG
Klaus Schwab said:

What's your framework for morality? I read a lot of "is" and "should" in your post. Do you have anything that avoids relativism?
Do I need to? Morality is relativistic for a lot of people. Mormons see drinking coffee and alcohol as immoral but most Christians do not (at least for coffee). And the younger generations have a different sense of morality from the older generations. There are some constants, like the things most of society considers immoral.

Quote:

Also, when you say "Christlike" do you include Christ destroying Sodom and Gomorrah, judging every human soul, calling Jews snakes, etc…? Your post sounds like an average take on Marcionism.
Are you talking about Christ or the God of the Old Testament? I know Christ was not sunshine and rainbows all the time.
Klaus Schwab
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Everyone has a framework for morality, some sort of principle. Just curious what yours is. Stating that groups have different beliefs is just an observation.

Ya I would say Christ destroying an entire city isn't sunshine and rainbows, although it's pretty based given the state of the city. If you are trying to compare Christ in the New Testament to the God in the Old Testament then you are caught in a dialectic. Christ destroys Sodom as He is the Angel of the Lord. Besides that, the three Divine Persons share the same will. There's no such thing as mean OT God vs Loving Hippy NT Jesus. The Logos contains all of reality.
barbacoa taco
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AG
I've already had a lengthy debate with another poster about objective/subjective morality and I'd rather not go down that path again, at least not in this thread.

And when I say Christlike I'm certainly not referring to the Old Testament God. I'm not going to act like I'm a scholar on the Jesus of the Bible but I do believe that he was quite ahead of his time with his teachings, and he certainly is not the "Republican Jesus" he's made out to be in America.
Klaus Schwab
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I don't know exactly what you mean by republican Jesus but if you think Jesus accepts the LBGTQ lifestyle then you have a misunderstanding of the Bible and pretty much all of Christianity. There are modern affirming pastors but they are more like cults or social clubs depending on their message. Some pastors are highly indoctrinated by post modern philosophers in the critical theory fields so they view scripture with that lens. It's a powerful twist on the gospels to accept everyone as they are instead of the original message of free will and communion with Christ.
dermdoc
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AG
Klaus Schwab said:

1. God of the gaps has nothing to do with Christianity. Christianity is based on encountering the divine. It's not a lack of knowledge, it's experience.

2. Yes human beings raise children in their community for better or worse. This is a universal experience. Secular folk have plenty of issues. Nihilism is the only logical option they ultimately have. Everything else is completely arbitrary, including stating your opinion on this forum if your belief is materialism. This is one reason why depression and suicide are increasing. For example I have a friend who was never raised in church and in college he adopted nihilism. He has good days and bad days but he admits that his life is ultimately meaningless. At one time I would ask him was his wedding meaningless? Family? Moral actions? Unfortunately it's an absurd position so from the Christian perspective prayer is the most powerful tool to help soften the heart of these people. From our perspective this is an illness.

3. The idea of life after death isn't as comforting as you think. Christians are called to purify their souls before judgement and the resurrection. This is why the Ten Commandments are the starting point and from our perspective a very good thing to have in schools. What isn't purified during life carries over to the departed soul. The soul grasps at the passions it once used but with no body it is tormented as there is no resting place for the passion. Christians are called to purify their souls now to prepare for this and unite themselves to uncreated energies that are eternal. This is a very difficult process.
Jesus purifies us. He makes us appear righteous before God. All we need to do is believe. As the old hymn goes "Jesus Paid it all".

And Jesus makes it easy for us. His yoke is light.

Is this codker?
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AGC
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AG
dermdoc said:

Klaus Schwab said:

1. God of the gaps has nothing to do with Christianity. Christianity is based on encountering the divine. It's not a lack of knowledge, it's experience.

2. Yes human beings raise children in their community for better or worse. This is a universal experience. Secular folk have plenty of issues. Nihilism is the only logical option they ultimately have. Everything else is completely arbitrary, including stating your opinion on this forum if your belief is materialism. This is one reason why depression and suicide are increasing. For example I have a friend who was never raised in church and in college he adopted nihilism. He has good days and bad days but he admits that his life is ultimately meaningless. At one time I would ask him was his wedding meaningless? Family? Moral actions? Unfortunately it's an absurd position so from the Christian perspective prayer is the most powerful tool to help soften the heart of these people. From our perspective this is an illness.

3. The idea of life after death isn't as comforting as you think. Christians are called to purify their souls before judgement and the resurrection. This is why the Ten Commandments are the starting point and from our perspective a very good thing to have in schools. What isn't purified during life carries over to the departed soul. The soul grasps at the passions it once used but with no body it is tormented as there is no resting place for the passion. Christians are called to purify their souls now to prepare for this and unite themselves to uncreated energies that are eternal. This is a very difficult process.
Jesus purifies us. He makes us appear righteous before God. All we need to do is believe. As the old hymn goes "Jesus Paid it all".

And Jesus makes it easy for us. His yoke is light.

Is this codker?


Jesus made Klaus Schwab
All to him I owe
I don't own a house or car
He financed my soft screen glow
Klaus Schwab
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Even the demons believe. Free will is a necessary part of salvation.

No this is Klaus.
dermdoc
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AG
Klaus Schwab said:

Even the demons believe. Free will is a necessary part of salvation.

No this is Klaus.


Fair enough. And sure demons believe but they do not accept.

Guess I should have stated it differently.

And sure, we strive to be more Christlike. But faith in Jesus is the reason for our salvation.

Not any of our works or purification.

What did the prodigal son have to do to be reconciled to the Father?
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Jabin
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You made a well-reasoned analysis, even though I may disagree on many of your assumptions. I also have to disagree with your conclusion.

None of what you said is causing Gen Z to turn away. Rather, that is a problem that has plagued God's people since the beginning of time. Adam's son Cain turned away, the people of Israel turned away within the first generation of entering Canaan, and the children of the Pilgrims turned away from the faith within one or two generations, even though the original Pilgrims were deeply Godly people.

None of those previous turnings away from God can be blamed on YEC teaching, political involvement, or the like. I'm not sure what the root cause is other than the desperately wicked natural state of man's heart.
BluHorseShu
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AG
dermdoc said:

Klaus Schwab said:

Even the demons believe. Free will is a necessary part of salvation.

No this is Klaus.


Fair enough. And sure demons believe but they do not accept.

Guess I should have stated it differently.

And sure, we strive to be more Christlike. But faith in Jesus is the reason for our salvation.

Not any of our works or purification.

What did the prodigal son have to do to be reconciled to the Father?
I agree. Faith in Christ through Gods grace is why we are saved. However, I think its important to give saving faith a more full description in that it means not only intellectual assent (belief), but trust and love in Christ (what I think you mean by 'accept'. When we have this, we are still called to persevere and still have the ability (however unlikely) to wane in our perseverance. We are still saved through our repenting and continuing in the faith but we still must go through a purification before we enter the kingdom. Some may experience more or less purification but they are still saved.
Many of the authors of the new testament provide warnings about the possibility of losing ones faith and turning away from God and the importance of persevering. In Matthew Jesus told the man who asked him 'What shall I do to get eternal life". And Jesus doesn't just say 'Believe in Me'. He tells him to keep the commandments, and additionally to sell all he has and follow him. The man believed who Jesus is, but more was required as an expression of faith.
dermdoc
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AG
I am not Catholic so we will agree to disagree on the purgatory aspect of purification.

As far as perseverance, totally agree. But once you have really met Jesus, why would you leave?
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88Warrior
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dermdoc said:

I am not Catholic so we will agree to disagree on the purgatory aspect of purification.

As far as perseverance, totally agree. But once you have really met Jesus, why would you leave?


Reminds me of a story a former co-worker told me. He was once a young Baptist preacher and was having a conversation with one of his congregation members about heaven when the church member asked "Brother Bill…when we get to heaven do you think we can change our mind??". He didn't know what to say…
BluHorseShu
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AG
dermdoc said:

I am not Catholic so we will agree to disagree on the purgatory aspect of purification.

As far as perseverance, totally agree. But once you have really met Jesus, why would you leave?
Well that's why I say 'unlikely'. I think once you experience Christ, it would take alot to move away from him. I'm of the belief that it's highly unlikely unless something happened in ones life that was just so devastating that they could no longer find solice in their faith. But mostly its something most Christians won't contend with. I will say that the idea that we are comfortable knowing that if we continue to sin we can still be saved, tends to lend itself to a slippery slope. Jesus even speaks to the unforgivable sin in Matthew 12:32. But again, thats a pretty heavy thing that most Christians would never contend with.
As a former protestant, I had a big misunderstanding of purgatory. Purgatory is for the saved and it may be instantaneous. The idea is that sin cannot enter into Gods presence. Of course Christ's death/resurrection was enough to save us, but the stain of sin, especially unrepentant sin must be cleansed before we enter. And remember that after death, "the fire will test what sort of work each one has done".I Corinthians 3:11-15 . This is a purification and completed before we enter.
dermdoc
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When I met Jesus, I no longer wanted to sin.

Sure I fail sometimes, but I know I am always forgiven.
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BluHorseShu
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dermdoc said:

When I met Jesus, I no longer wanted to sin.

Sure I fail sometimes, but I know I am always forgiven.
I agree. You feel like you've let him down when you do. But the desire still exists in us, but hopefully as we continually work toward righteousness, it becomes less and less of a desire. I also think most people tend to categorize sin like definite, maybe, not sure. Adultery definitely, being snarky toward someone maybe, not being charitable toward someone as we should..not sure. My point is there can be a tendency to pat ourselves on the back because we're faithful to our spouse, we don't steal, and never lie. But there are nuances that can still be sinful that we may not even be aware of. Which is why we continually pray for God to show us where we need to improve.
Could there be things we do that we don't think are sins, or we think are so insignificant that we don't raise them to the level of repentance? I think its certainly possible. So if we die in this state, then we still have to be sanctified completely before entering heaven.
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