Jabin said:

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You made a well-reasoned analysis, even though I may disagree on many of your assumptions. I also have to disagree with your conclusion.

None of what you said is causing Gen Z to turn away. Rather, that is a problem that has plagued God's people since the beginning of time. Adam's son Cain turned away, the people of Israel turned away within the first generation of entering Canaan, and the children of the Pilgrims turned away from the faith within one or two generations, even though the original Pilgrims were deeply Godly people.

None of those previous turnings away from God can be blamed on YEC teaching, political involvement, or the like. I'm not sure what the root cause is other than the desperately wicked natural state of man's heart.

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I don't think modern trends are comparable to Biblical characters turning away. Completely different world, completely different circumstances.

Different worlds for sure but the sins are the same. Nothing new under the sun.

dermdoc said:

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Klaus Schwab said:

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Even the demons believe. Free will is a necessary part of salvation.

No this is Klaus.

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Fair enough. And sure demons believe but they do not accept.

Guess I should have stated it differently.

And sure, we strive to be more Christlike. But faith in Jesus is the reason for our salvation.

Not any of our works or purification.

What did the prodigal son have to do to be reconciled to the Father?

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I'm sure this has been discussed many times here but the prodigal son came to himself and realized how sinful his life was. His action was returning home to be a servant under his father. His free will worked with his faith. Humans must will to do the good along with receiving grace from God. Luther's idea of the bondage of the will comes from many different false assumptions and emotional baggage, although there is some insight there and how difficult is actually is.

As far as faith alone goes that is a teaching of different reformation groups. These groups didn't even agree on how to interpret faith alone and they also had differing views on sola scriptura. Regardless of those dogmas, James plainly refutes the idea of faith alone-

"21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

CS Lewis has a good quote on faith/works-"Regarding the debate about faith and works: It's like asking which blade in a pair of scissors is most important."

We have gone round and round on this topic on here for years.
Famous theologians have done the same.

I have a very simple almost child like faith. I want to do good works because I love my neighbor and God.

I firmly believe Romans 10:13
Whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Gospel means literally "good news".
Seems like some soteriologies do not stress that.

And can anyone tell me what kind of, which, and how many "works" are "necessary"?

Seems to vary not just from denomination to denomination but even from clergy to clergy. In the same denomination.

Do you believe humans have a sinful nature?

Klaus Schwab said:

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Different worlds for sure but the sins are the same. Nothing new under the sun.

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the reason I dont like it is it attempts explain it all away with "humans are sinful" or some platitude like that. And I'm saying no, it's much deeper than that. and the more people ignore it, the worse it will get.

Taco,

I read everything, so thank you for an impassioned reflection. I want to address each point, hopefully over the weekend, because these points are important. Mainly because I think there is a lot to unpack, but the good news is that a lot of it has been unpacked and continues to be unpacked in our time.

In the end, God will not judge us by the number of sins we committed- but rather by how much we loved one another. Heard that quote by Russell Crow in a movie recently. Spot on.

To be continued!

Hardwired in the sense that God created man to know love and be loved.

I love our dog, but not the same as the love I have for my wife and family. Love transcends time and space. Love endures all…. What did Paul write? Love never fails, he was on to something. THAT is the key.

thanks Pablo. looking forward to reading it.

Didn't even read my post. Not all of the examples I provided were Biblical. And it's a pattern that has repeated itself throughout all of human history, including American history. America has a history of rising and falling commitment to Christianity and Christian principles.

Klaus Schwab said:

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Do you believe humans have a sinful nature?

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Of course.

That is why we need a Savior.
And like I said, knowing the Lord I want to do good works.
But it is a real slippery slope when clergy try to define what and how many works are necessary.

dermdoc said:

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Klaus Schwab said:

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Do you believe humans have a sinful nature?

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Of course.

That is why we need a Savior.
And like I said, knowing the Lord I want to do good works.
But it is a real slippery slope when clergy try to define what and how many works are necessary.

---

There aren't any works that merit salvation and if you run across any Catholic clergy that tell someone 'how many works are necessary', they are teaching completely against Church doctrine (though I think most often its the misperception of someone else, even other Catholics)
Salvation is by God's grace through faith. If we did not have the free gift of God's grace, our faith would still not save. But the term 'faith' is key to understanding. In fact in Catholicism, the term 'works' is not even in the Cathechism section on justification. It actually states elsewhere that there are no works we can do to merit salvation. And technically, the initial 'act' of faith could be construed as a work... but it does not merit us salvation. It is our response to God's grace. But the Bible does tell us that to receive God's grace we must respond through our faith working through love. Our initial faith brings us initial justification and we continue to increase our justification through following Christs teachings. There isn't a scorecard or a number of things we do, we just have to persevere. A Protestant would say these things would flow naturally once someone has faith and if there isn't anything flowing, then they likely didn't really have 'real' faith to begin with. And is a way, I would agree. With faith we also received the Holy Spirit which helps give us the kick in the pants we need to keep persevering, but we are not on autopilot and can falter from time to time. I go back to Matt 19 16-21. He tells us what we must do. As Catholics we just look at this as following Christ's teachings, but unfortunately some Protestants think we see these as meritorious works. We still have the ability, however likely/unlikely, to refuse.

Agree with what you posted.

dermdoc said:

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Klaus Schwab said:

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Do you believe humans have a sinful nature?

---

Of course.

That is why we need a Savior.
And like I said, knowing the Lord I want to do good works.
But it is a real slippery slope when clergy try to define what and how many works are necessary.

---

This could just be a issue of definitions but if you believe humans have a sinful nature then you would have to hold the idea that Christ has a sinful nature since he has a full human nature. God does not create evil so it's impossible to have an evil nature as God created natures. Sin is not a thing. Sin is an act of the will. Persons sin when they act by will. The idea that natures are evil (which would include God as the author of evil) is Manichaeism/pagan dualism.

Nature-what (divine nature, human nature, angelic nature, etc..)
Hypostasis- who (Father, Son, Holy Spirit, Adam, Eve, etc.)
Will- choice
Energy- action

FIDO95 said:

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barbacoa taco said:

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It's worth noting that Gen Z is only the least religious generation so far. Prior to them, the millennials were. But one could argue we've reached a turning point since Gen Z is described as the "first post-Christian generation." Overall point being, religion is on the decline in the USA and the western world.

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Appreciate your contributions to this thread but I have to admit I find your conclusions/observations wrong. I should first clarify what I mean as "wrong" in the sense of the philosophical discussion we are having here. I was born and raised here in Texas. As such, I find 45 degrees cold (...maybe just because I'm getting old, but I digress). If I was having a conversation with someone from Alaska about the weather, they would likely state that 45 degrees is quite comfortable. To which I would say, "you are wrong". Same fact, 45 degrees, but very different perspective.

I believe we all develop a lens through which to view the world around us. The lens is shaped by our experiences and our exposures. It sharpness on things we find pleasing, and it generates blind spots to things we are likely to miss. I am just as capable as anyone else of being blind to another persons' perspective. What I would ask you to consider is the narrow view of religion that you may have. It appears that you paint religion as a subject build around a god. I would argue that religion is based on something that you give most worth and as such, something you worship (Worth and worship being derived from the same word). Gen Z is very religious. However, their religion is based around climate change, social justice, sexuality, etc. Those things provide the, as you said, "community, sense of identity". Asking them to denounce those things would bring a similar reaction as a Christian being asked to denounce Christ.

Jonathan Haidt, an atheist I might add, has done amazing work on the origins of morality and religion. One of his theories, that I believe to be true, is that all humans have a "god shaped hole" in their heart. It is going to get filled with something, either it's religious philosophy or a secular one. Which then brings me back to my original question in OP. Evangelizing to someone with a religious philosophy based around a monotheistic God is very different then having that a discussion with someone with a completely different view of the world. I'm going to find more common ground talking to a fellow Texan about the weather. Trying to get an Alaskan to see my view of the weather is going to entail a much different and difficult conversation. If Christians are going to find success, we are going to have to find ways of having those conversations.

I'd like to address one final point to the statement as "religion a very effective tool to control the people" by politicians. Is that not happening today with "religion" of climate policies dictating what cars we can drive and stoves we can use in our homes and/or social policies dictating what words and thoughts we are allowed have? We are witnessing the beginning of a modern-day inquisition, but people seem blind to it because it's not being led by an "organized religion". You seem to be critical of the Western Culture that was built on Judeo-Christian values but neglect the stability, prosperity, and freedom that it has provided. Most importantly, and at the basis of our nation's founding, is the idea that there is a Creator and our rights come from Him. Take God out of the picture and rights become dictated by the whim's government and bureaucrats. Society will eventually serve another master and I suspect it will be less free and less pleasant. My concern is that we are watching the unravelling of that society real time today. People will be rejoicing in their moral relativism until the truth of the Emperor's new clothes is revealed. And then of course, it will be too late.

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Klaus Schwab said:

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Different worlds for sure but the sins are the same. Nothing new under the sun.

---

I don't think there is a good historical parallel for a population wide turn to away from divine beliefs.

For most time periods you look at beliefs dominated particular geographic areas for long periods interspersed with relatively short periods of upheaval.

I don't think there is any thoughtful speculation on just how many Jews turned to Ashera worship or any other local god. Suffice to say it wasn't enough to stick. We see the rise and fall of various beliefs often associated with a dominant culture or empire.

Christianity and Islam flipped the script to some extent as they were a common ground even among competing nations and maintained stability in areas for a long time.

The US is actually lagging as far as the post Christian west compared to many Western European countries or Israel.

Post Islamic will be a trend I look forward to but it's, for various reasons, more entrenched in the places it's grabbed hold.

And while I sympathize with the "there's nothing new under the sun" or "history doesn't repeat itself but it rhymes" point of view. There are exceptions.

The internet is new. And I'm speaking less of the technology than the impact. Same goes for social media (which I largely hate even as I complain about it on my universities fan football social media platform).

And also:

Let's remember this statement directly out of the mouth of the New Testament Christ:

Matt 11:18-24


18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon.' 19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' But wisdom is justified by her children."

20 Then He began to rebuke the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent: 21 "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you." NKJV

Even to this day, we do not know exactly where Capernaum was located.

I have hear all these same tired old arguments many times in my 65 years and 50 years of KNOWING GOD (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) . There truly is nothing new under sun. This has nothing to do with 'religion' or 'one's faith'. Everyone has some sort of faith (belief) about God, (If one does not believe in God, that is itself a 'faith statement'. If God is a Spiritual being. - Which Jesus His Son claims that He is - John 4:24 - then we humans who are part of His creation are extremely limited in our ability to 'verify' this claim as it is totally outside of our domain.

However, Here is the real deal, the real center of it all. it's totally about the person and claims of. Jesus Christ who directly claims to be the only "BEGOTTEN" Son of God in the flesh (John 1:1-3, John 1:14)

John 3:16-21

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." NKJV

Please note that He clearly says that He is that ONE BEGOTTEN Son of the Most High God whom He calls His Father,

John 14:6

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. NKJV

and

Mark 14:61-62

Again the high priest asked Him, saying to Him, "Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?"
62 Jesus said, "I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven." NKJV

Also please note from John 3:18-20 that Jesus say that those WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN HIM (and that does NOT mean a passive belief in His existence, even the demons 'believe' in Christ and tremble - James 2:19) - ARE ALREADY CONDEMNED! He then goes on to explain why they are condemned - because they do not believe that He is the Christ, the Son of God, Lord and savior.

So to cut to the chase and get to the real and simple point. Either Jesus Christ is either who He claims and is God in flesh and His Father is God Most High with full authority and power to make rules and judgements or He is not and entirety of the scripture is just bogus man made 'religion' a lie or it is truth. You cannot have it both ways.

I have people tell me all the time that they 'don't believe in God', or they don't believe in the Genesis account or that "all religions are man made myths'. My normal response is something like. "So?? What does it matter what you "believe" or don't "believe" --
(believe is a 'faith' word by the way and what ever you believe about God or the beginning of the world you are going to believe by 'faith' this idea that 'science' is the real truth and that God only exist in gaps is sheer nonsense, delusional thinking.. "The fool says in his heart there is not God" Psalm 53:1. In any case I digress)
-- has any impact on reality or the 'truth' is a delusional arrogance that basically makes YOU GOD and there is the real problem, from the beginning! Here are some stone cold facts that your belief or non belief in them has Zero impact on.

1. Gravity -- Gravity does not care about what you believe about it or don't believe about it. It will not cease to exist or go away because one believes in it or not! It will remain and be what it is and has been from the beginning. You cannot change it or alter it. It is a truth that will not conform to your 'faith' or belief about it.

2. My wife and family -- I am married I have 4 kids. Often if I am flying I will engage in conversation with my fellow passenger. It is not unusual for the conversation to turn to "are you married' or 'do you have kids', etc. I then pull out my phone and show them a pic of my wife and family pic and talk a bit about them. I have never yet had anyone not believe me when I told them this was a pic of my wife and kids. Yet, WHAT IF THEY DIDN'T BELIEVE ME? What if they went on to say, "Unless I see them and meet them personally and have them tell me that you are the husband and father I will not believe you." What would be my response to such a statement? Would my wife and children cease to exist? Even further, would they even be impacted in anyway by this 'fool's' unbelief? Would I now begin to 'doubt that I have a wife and children? Would that change or have any impact at all on the truth?!? Of course not.

I don't have 'faith' or 'believe' I have a wife and children I KNOW I DO!

And the same can be said about God specifically Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. I have met them, I know them, I am just a witness. They just happen to exist in a different dimension a Spiritual dimension. I find it funny that everyone I talked to believes me when I say this is my wife and kids but yet when I say I have met God, talked to Him, have had revelation of Jesus Christ, they do not believe me! If they do not believe me they are basically saying that I am one of two things. A liar or am insane, delusionally so.

However, I am neither. I live in reality both in the natural/physical and spiritual dimensions, I do have a wife and four kids and I do know Jesus Christ and am filled with His Holy Spirit like He promised for those who repent, believe and surrender their lives to Him (Acts 2:38).

God, did create the heavens and earth, He is the master artist, whether we believe this or not has no impact on the truth, We are part of the art work. Evolutionist, who in their extremely limited point of view, study the art work intensely and then declare with confidence, "We have done a diligent search of this art work and we could not find the artist therefore there is not artist!" Are just absolutely insane. Lol what pack of fools.

Rom 1:18-2:11

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

2 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. 3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds": 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God. NKJV

OPAG said:

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And also:

Let's remember this statement directly out of the mouth of the New Testament Christ:

Matt 11:18-24


18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon.' 19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' But wisdom is justified by her children."

20 Then He began to rebuke the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent: 21 "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you." NKJV

Even to this day, we do not know exactly where Capernaum was located.

---

I've always wondered how insane Capernaum must have been to say Sodom was worse. I would imagine a modern man would be in a constant state of shock.

Aggrad08 said:

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Klaus Schwab said:

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Different worlds for sure but the sins are the same. Nothing new under the sun.

---

I don't think there is a good historical parallel for a population wide turn to away from divine beliefs.

For most time periods you look at beliefs dominated particular geographic areas for long periods interspersed with relatively short periods of upheaval.

I don't think there is any thoughtful speculation on just how many Jews turned to Ashera worship or any other local god. Suffice to say it wasn't enough to stick. We see the rise and fall of various beliefs often associated with a dominant culture or empire.

Christianity and Islam flipped the script to some extent as they were a common ground even among competing nations and maintained stability in areas for a long time.

The US is actually lagging as far as the post Christian west compared to many Western European countries or Israel.

Post Islamic will be a trend I look forward to but it's, for various reasons, more entrenched in the places it's grabbed hold.

And while I sympathize with the "there's nothing new under the sun" or "history doesn't repeat itself but it rhymes" point of view. There are exceptions.

The internet is new. And I'm speaking less of the technology than the impact. Same goes for social media (which I largely hate even as I complain about it on my universities fan football social media platform).

---

Ya I don't think it's a surprise that most Jews aren't religious given their history. That might sound harsh but it's in their own stories and obviously the Christians have their view on why they fell.

I don't think Islam will last against the secular view for much longer because of globalization and as you mentioned the internet. Yes the tech is new but my point is that the actions and decisions stemming from the use of that tech will be the same from the Christian perspective. Grand ideas of individualism will get swallowed up by inclusivity in the same fashion as the west.

Klaus Schwab said:

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OPAG said:

---

And also:

Let's remember this statement directly out of the mouth of the New Testament Christ:

Matt 11:18-24


18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon.' 19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' But wisdom is justified by her children."

20 Then He began to rebuke the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent: 21 "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you." NKJV

Even to this day, we do not know exactly where Capernaum was located.

---

I've always wondered how insane Capernaum must have been to say Sodom was worse. I would imagine a modern man would be in a constant state of shock.

---

I don't think Capernaum was 'morally' worse than Sodom, nor do I think Chorazin or the other cities he condemned in this passage were morally worse then Nineveh.

The whole point the Lord is making is that if Jesus had appeared in Sodom and done what He did in those cities, they would of humbly repented of their immoralities and turned to God!

This is a very severe warning actually. Jesus absolutely 'goes off' on the 'religious self righteous' Jew -- the "Christians" of His day in Matt 23.

Isn't it interesting that the greatest persecutors of "The Way" was the old order of the Jews?
What happened to them?

isn't it interesting that of all the old testament prophets that the Lord sent to His people to call them to repent they never really listened to one of them. And yet the one prophet he sent to the extremely corrupt and evil Assyrian empire (Nineveh) they heeded. And isn't interesting to note that Jonah's message to them was simple "In 40 days you are bar b que" LOL. The word repent was never offered! Yet, they themselves not only believed Jonah they held the greatest mass repentance in Biblical history.

Capernaum and the cities Jesus preached and did His works in, never really repented,, they didn't think they needed too! They were the righteous ones. No they were not.

It's not much different than most the of the 'church" today.

Scripture is clear, there will be a great falling away before the revealing of the "man"of sin' the son of perdition.

2 Thess 2:1-3

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; FOR THAT DAY WILL NOT COME UNLESS THE FALLING AWAY COMES FIRST, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition .....NKJV

I have never seen such a mass 'falling away' from the Lord, like I have in the last 20 to 30 years.

As in the days of Noah.

Oh nice user name. LOL

If you look at polling on religious identification in this country there's a pretty clear trend in which the number of people considered "Unaffiliated" has been steadily increasing for the last thirty years or so. At this point, most polls put this category at somewhere around 30%.

What's interesting to me is what these new generations who aren't being raised believing in miracles or the supernatural are going to believe in adulthood. If you already believe in ghosts and astrology and miracles than the claims of Christianity, for example, might not seem that strange. But without that conditioning I suspect there might be a rise in skepticism.

I don't see any current trends that would indicate the rise of the "Unaffiliateds" is going to slow or stop.

Barbacoa Taco,

I have a couple of kids graduating from HS and JHS this month and have not had the time to respond, however, I have thought about your analysis almost daily. Mainly because, I have 8 kids that are living out this very scenario in their lives. Let me explain.

My wife and I, were still students (1988) at Texas A&M when our first kiddo was given to us by God (found out we were pregnant, well not me exactly, but us). Cecilia and I were both what you call, "Cradle Catholics", she went from Pre-K to 12th grade all in Catholic schools (El Paso) and I attended "O.L.P.H.", Our Lady of Perpetual Help, or Our Little Prison Home as we called it, for my elementary school years. We loved God, Jesus, Mary and Joseph, but had no real understanding. Like so many youth, we went through the motions; went to mass weekly, received the sacraments of initiation (baptism, reconciliation/eucharist, confirmation) and were generally good kids. I did have a wonderful experience as an altar boy in which I felt the presence of Jesus during the mass while at school. I have never forgotten it and it remains with me to this day. This was not some passing feeling, it was a bit overwhelming and I can honestly say -is the single reason I am here today.

Fast forward to this past May 19, 2023. All 8 kiddos attended my youngest kiddo, Carlos', 8th grade graduation at the Cathedral School of Saint Mary (Austin). It marked the 31st year we have had a kid at St. Mary's since 1992. Cecilia and I decided early on that we would sacrifice to send all of our kids to Catholic school (K-8) and by gosh, we had no idea what that meant and what the cost would be- however, by the grace of God, we made it! There were times that I seriously thought- no way we can afford this, but I remembered what Catholic school mean to me and my faith walk- that time as an altar boy- and put the hand to the plow. Cecilia never wavered, she's a rock. There was a time we had 5 kids attending St. Mary's! It was incredible.

If you have ever been to the Cathedral of Saint Mary in Austin, it is blocks away from the ARCH, former head quarters for the large homeless population in Austin. We saw many of the same folks pan handling around the church and got to know a few of them. Some really needed help, some were just bouncing around from place to place. It was an opportunity for my kids to experience something only we had worked so hard to shield them from - poverty. My kids, from the earliest age, were very sympathetic and wanted to share with Steven, Leslie, etc. I know we gave them change and stuff, however, my kids would go beyond and give them food, their allowance, whatever they had. They would walk over and do it themselves.

Where am I going with this? Your bullet point 1, was a good synopsis of "the appeal" of religion, however, it left out the connection, some say personal relationship, built between Jesus and you. Not saying you cannot get this in nature, in silence, or on your own- however, it was my experience, my wife, and all 8 of our kids experience through the loving environment that existed at home, in school, and at church that "softened our hearts" and we were open to life, love for neighbor, love for the poor, and love for God. I do think that unless one opens their heart to the love of God, it is nearly impossible to understand what it means to love your enemies, to do good to those that want to harm you, to turn your cheek, to visit the imprisoned- all that sermon on the mound stuff.

Now, to your other point about "the lack of appeal to Gen Z." Seven of our 8 kids were born between 1995 and 2009. So, we know a little bit about this age group. Indeed, they struggle with "the faith" and have in some ways have rejected the RCC over the very concerns they have about personal freedoms, sexuality, and clerical scandals. What hasn't changed though is their love for neighbor and treatment of the poor, marginalized. In a way this is their guiding principal and at least two of my daughters are working with youth that struggle with behavioral problems and one will be a social worker after graduation. Do they still go to church every Sunday? I don't think so. Some are more involved with Church organizations than the others. However, everyone of them would give you the shirt off their back. So I do agree with your assessment that fewer youth are embracing the organized aspect of religion, but I know that it was precisely their exposure to works of mercy that impacted their lives and shaped who they are today.

Jesus gave a chilling account about how the seeds of faith (MT 13:3-9) are scattered among the rocks, pathways, weeds, thorns, and some on good soil. When I think about my kids, I think about this parable. I am comforted though in also knowing that Jesus also said (JN 13:35) that everyone will know we are his disciples by the love we have for one another. So you have to weigh the two. I would rather have my kids (now mostly adults) have real love for their neighbor than to blindly go to church to check off a box and not really "know" and love Jesus through the people God has created.

Smugness, a callous heart, and hypocrisy are what turns off my kids from those who say they are "religious" because they can see with their own eyes the harm that those who say they "see" and choose to exclude people because of their sexual orientation, gender, poverty, immigration status, homelessness, or even their fallen state- has wrought upon their spiritual lives. They make the connection and say -that's why I don't go to church. I get it and then I think about my mother, grandmother, and great grandmother. They knew maybe a fraction of the teachings of the RCC, but were resolute in their love and faith in Jesus. I think it takes time is what I am saying. Like the seeds that fell on the path and were eaten up by the birds, that can be us at anytime. I still believe we are "hardwired" to know and love God. Given time and loving examples, the truth will win out, because it is true.

Your last point about feeling "betrayed" is a tough one and I apologize on behalf of all Christians for your hurt. I can only hope that one day you find someone who is living out the gospel of love that Jesus brought and you see for yourself that this is what Jesus wants us to cling to more so than all the theology by the brightest minds or all the dogma in Rome. Not that those things aren't important, but as Paul wrote, if we do all those things but do not love- we are like noisy gongs.

dermdoc said:

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As far as perseverance, totally agree. But once you have really met Jesus, why would you leave?

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People leave all the time. Myself included. Through mortal sin. Which by definition is a rejection of Gods love.

Howdy Dammit said:

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dermdoc said:

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As far as perseverance, totally agree. But once you have really met Jesus, why would you leave?

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People leave all the time. Myself included. Through mortal sin. Which by definition is a rejection of Gods love.

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Curious.. what are the requirements for "mortal sin"?

Aren't you Catholic?

Indeed.

I was trying to understand your response to dermdoc's question about leaving Jesus. It would seem that you equate committing a mortal sin with leaving Jesus? As you already know, grave matter, free will (consent), and full knowledge are required.

It would seem that few people who know Jesus would out right reject him. Rather, I think many people know of Jesus, maybe were raised in the faith, but do not have that intimate knowledge/personal relationship to flat out reject Jesus. Do people commit sin, absolutely! Does that sin separate them from God, in a way yes- but not in the same sense as rejecting the mercy of God's forgiveness (blasphemy against the Holy Spirit).

I think very, very few people leave Jesus in that way, where all 3 conditions are met in order to be considered a mortal sin.

I think all three condition are met very frequently.