it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea. Matt. 18:6

Why is this? I'm thinking of a child who comes to Jesus in faith, yet is caused to sin by an adult. A parent raises their child to hate God's law, an uncle sexually abuses a child to turn them into a lifelong homosexual, a teacher mocks a child for believing the things in the Bible.

The adult essentially takes a person with a child like faith (which in the preceding verse Jesus says are the greatest in the kingdom of heaven) and converts them into a lifelong doubter, destining them to hell.

It is such a wicked act that Jesus says it would be better for that adult to die.

All I know is we need a lot of Millstones for these days.

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an uncle sexually abuses a child to turn them into a lifelong homosexual

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You should update your stereotypes.

I'm probably not getting your tongue-in-cheek style, but the audience was the disciples. This lesson is essentially addressed to Christians, not non-Christians.

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an uncle sexually abuses a child to turn them into a lifelong homosexual

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What

diehard03 said:

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I'm probably not getting your tongue-in-cheek style, but the audience was the disciples. This lesson is essentially addressed to Christians, not non-Christians.

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That's fine and I don't intend to respond further. The trolling, however, is clearly intended for people outside the putative audience. I'm not sure if he's hoping to have the thread derailed so he can claim some kind of trollish victory or just wants to be a dick.

My apologies, my post was not intended to be a response to yours, but to the OP.

Your post is fine.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea. Matt. 18:6

Why is this? I'm thinking of a child who comes to Jesus in faith, yet is caused to sin by an adult. A parent raises their child to hate God's law, an uncle sexually abuses a child to turn them into a lifelong homosexual, a teacher mocks a child for believing the things in the Bible.

The adult essentially takes a person with a child like faith (which in the preceding verse Jesus says are the greatest in the kingdom of heaven) and converts them into a lifelong doubter, destining them to hell.

It is such a wicked act that Jesus says it would be better for that adult to die.

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Is there a concern about the implications of saying that we can be corrupted at a young age by others in a manner that affects our eternal fate? That verse seems to suggest our free will is, at a minimum, affected by external factors outside of our control. Asking all of this another way, would God allow for punishment of a person who was, through no fault of their own, influenced negatively at an impressionable age by an adult? Your commentary on the verse appears to undermine the idea of humans having free will to choose God or not choose God.

A more extreme reading of this could suggest that any adult raising a child in a manner not consistent with God's teachings (at a minimum this would be every non-Christian) should be drowned and murdered. Are there actions that are justifiable by Christians through this verse?

No, I don't think Jesus is making a political statement - anybody that fits this category should be executed. And it's not every non-Christian. Just those children who believe in Jesus, and the adult uses their influence to cause them to steer them away.

I'm not following your questions on free will. Children are impressionable for sure. Adults, especially parents, influence their children's thinking (even those who actively try not to like the so called free-range parents). This puts the child on a path that affects their entire life. My parents did, teachers, coaches. But it doesn't remove my free will. I still freely choose to sin. And yes, God is justified to punish me for it.

When Jesus says these adults are "causing" the children to sin, I think he means influence. Nobody can make a person sin. Sin originates in the heart.

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But it doesn't remove my free will. I still freely choose to sin. And yes, God is justified to punish me for it.

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How can you claim influence is this powerful on children in one sentence and then claim you are free to choose in the next? Either the influence affects any possible choice and brings significant weight to the process or it doesn't. If it doesn't, your choice is free and there is no significant influence. In which case the verse is moot. If it does, your choice isn't actually free but is instead a result of conditioning.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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I'm not following your questions on free will. Children are impressionable for sure. Adults, especially parents, influence their children's thinking (even those who actively try not to like the so called free-range parents). This puts the child on a path that affects their entire life. My parents did, teachers, coaches. But it doesn't remove my free will. I still freely choose to sin. And yes, God is justified to punish me for it.

When Jesus says these adults are "causing" the children to sin, I think he means influence. Nobody can make a person sin. Sin originates in the heart.

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The adult essentially takes a person with a child like faith (which in the preceding verse Jesus says are the greatest in the kingdom of heaven) and converts them into a lifelong doubter, destining them to hell.

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Yes, no one can force you to sin and its all still a choice. . . . but in the sentence above, you are also very clearly and directly stating that a person's influence on a child can be a factor in the child "convert[ing] into a lifelong doubter, destining them to hell."

Take my story for example. I grew up Christian and left my religion when I was about 18. Perhaps there was someone that influenced me in such a manner that caused me to leave God. IF, I had never met that person, maybe I would still be a devout believer today and not destined for Hell.

While not breaking the rule that says we all have free will, make our own choices, and no one forces us to sin . . . your post seems (to me) to allow for an element of random chance in what influences a child will receive and to promote the idea that the likelihood or unlikelihood that a child achieves salvation is influenced by that random chance.

Is it that a Christian child that receives a corrupting influence and goes to Hell was always going to be destined for Hell? If that is the case, then the anger toward the influencer is entirely misplaced. The only way the verse makes sense and that anger toward the influencer makes any sense is if the influencer has affected a child's likelihood of reaching Heaven. And in that case. . . . .What? We chalk up our individual likelihoods of reaching salvation to luck/chance?

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A more extreme reading of this could suggest that any adult raising a child in a manner not consistent with God's teachings (at a minimum this would be every non-Christian) should be drowned and murdered. Are there actions that are justifiable by Christians through this verse?

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So, Matthew 18 starts with the disciples asking Jesus who the greatest is and he gives an answer that is rather unexpected: he points to a child and say you need to be like the child...then goes on to says the verse that OP mentioned. Again, rather odd reply to the question. After this, Matthew continues in theme with the famous verses about chopping off limbs if they cause you to sin.

What do we do with this? I read his reply as "you are very far away from being the greatest... you need to focus your attention elsewhere." I don't think the verse mentioned is prescriptive (ie, something we should do), but rather a warning that sin is dangerous and he uses the extreme example that it would be better for you kill yourself than to lead someone into sin.

To me, this makes the following verses about maiming yourself make more sense.

And again, his audience here isn't everyone and it carries a basic "buy in" to the concept of sin and everything else.

kurt vonnegut said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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I'm not following your questions on free will. Children are impressionable for sure. Adults, especially parents, influence their children's thinking (even those who actively try not to like the so called free-range parents). This puts the child on a path that affects their entire life. My parents did, teachers, coaches. But it doesn't remove my free will. I still freely choose to sin. And yes, God is justified to punish me for it.

When Jesus says these adults are "causing" the children to sin, I think he means influence. Nobody can make a person sin. Sin originates in the heart.

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The adult essentially takes a person with a child like faith (which in the preceding verse Jesus says are the greatest in the kingdom of heaven) and converts them into a lifelong doubter, destining them to hell.

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Yes, no one can force you to sin and its all still a choice. . . . but in the sentence above, you are also very clearly and directly stating that a person's influence on a child can be a factor in the child "convert[ing] into a lifelong doubter, destining them to hell."

Take my story for example. I grew up Christian and left my religion when I was about 18. Perhaps there was someone that influenced me in such a manner that caused me to leave God. IF, I had never met that person, maybe I would still be a devout believer today and not destined for Hell.

While not breaking the rule that says we all have free will, make our own choices, and no one forces us to sin . . . your post seems (to me) to allow for an element of random chance in what influences a child will receive and to promote the idea that the likelihood or unlikelihood that a child achieves salvation is influenced by that random chance.

Is it that a Christian child that receives a corrupting influence and goes to Hell was always going to be destined for Hell? If that is the case, then the anger toward the influencer is entirely misplaced. The only way the verse makes sense and that anger toward the influencer makes any sense is if the influencer has affected a child's likelihood of reaching Heaven. And in that case. . . . .What? We chalk up our individual likelihoods of reaching salvation to luck/chance?

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Saying that the person influenced you AND you are still responsible for your apostasy are not diametric ideas. The person who convinced you Jesus cannot save you from your sins is to blame, but so are you. I think what makes it so bad for children is they are so impressionable. Statutory rape is "rape" because, even if the child consents, the amount of influence an adult has over a child is so lopsided that the adult is more to blame.

I'm not big into the "what if" games or "was he always destined to hell". It requires knowledge that we don't possess and it doesn't enter into our choice making abilities anyway.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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Saying that the person influenced you AND you are still responsible for your apostasy are not diametric ideas. The person who convinced you Jesus cannot save you from your sins is to blame, but so are you.

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Generally, I agree. But, none of this solves the eternal concern and the possibility of outside persons having affect over the likelihood of someone else being saved. It seems to me that one of the two statements below would have to be true, or at least more true than the other (assuming Salvation or Damnation is not pre-determined):

Statement 1 - God's judgement is so Just and perfect that it has the ability to 'correct' for environmental conditions of a person's life as well as influences from others that were beyond their control. In this scenario, God's judgement is truly based on what is in the person's heart and not what they may have been manipulated into on Earth.

Statement 2 - A child may be influenced, from no fault of their own, by a person with poor intentions in such a way that they are convinced to abandon God. The child still made a choice and is subject to the consequences, but their choice was influenced by factors beyond their control and they are simply unlucky to have been subject to those negative influences. In this scenario, God's judgement is based, in part, on what we've been manipulated into while on Earth rather than what is in our heart.

I guess I'm not that interested in finding excuses for my actions.

In that case, why the special anger towards those pushing others away from God? Those being pushed away are responsible for their own actions - no excuse.

kurt vonnegut said:

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In that case, why the special anger towards those pushing others away from God? Those being pushed away are responsible for their own actions - no excuse.

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It is special because of the disparity in age.

Let me try to lay out another way to look at this. First, there were flavors of Judaism around the first century that was solely focused on the physical. So basically, you had to do an sinful act to be sinning. As an example, you point a gun in anger and pull the trigger and it misfires. No harm, no foul, you did nothing wrong despite having the full intent of murdering someone.

Second, we know God forgives ignorance. In fact, in the OT the only sins that are automatically forgiven are sins of ignorance. There are no OT guarantees of forgiveness for willfully committed sins.

Put those things together and you have a nice little exploit. If you want to steal something, you just trick an innocent child to do it for you. You've committed no physical crime; the child has. But the child is ignorant of their sins and is guaranteed forgiveness on the day of Atonement, even if they never learn they did anything wrong.

Now Jesus completely refuted the idea that sins are only external actions. Just to hate someone makes you as guilty as a murderer. So clearly getting an innocent so do your dirty work doesn't make you any less guilty. On top of that, you are taking advantage of an innocent person which only compounds with the intended sin. It's like sin^2

You are mis-reading the text.
It is a warning to those who play on the innocence of children and are the cause leading them into a sinful life.

If you don't get the horror in the child sex trade today you are lost.