Did you know that dexamethasone was shown to be one of the only efficacious drugs in treatment of severe COVID? Dexamethasone is also cheaper than ivermectin.snowdog90 said:
Of course, ivermectin was immediately attacked. You see, Pfizer and Moderna and all their politician investors couldn't make billions of dollars if a cheap drug like like ivermectin was shown to work.
Get the Vax
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Last: 5 days ago by snowdog90
Yes. Just like all vaccines in history, efficacy is limited by the natural evolution of the virus. Just like the influenza vaccine. SARS COV2 is an RNA virus which is highly unstable. Some RNA viruses are more unstable than others, and this is very unstable. As such there are thousands of variants that have been sequenced. However evolutionary pressure ends up selecting for a few that vaccines try to focus on.RAB91 said:It worked.... for a short time. But once a new variant came into the population, that changed. And someone can correct me, but I think that was only 5-7 months after the initial vaccine came out. If it continued to work so well...bigtruckguy3500 said:Honestly it's amazing to me that educated individuals don't believe the COVID vaccine worked.RAB91 said:It really is amazing that an 'educated' person still believes that the Covid vaccines work now. I'm guessing these same type of people still discount natural immunity (and probably wore masks outside).Sapper Redux said:snowdog90 said:Star Wars Memes Only said:
Wow, this video is so incredibly stupid.
Really glad I skipped the vax and took ivermectin when I got covid. Better immediately and back to work asap. Kinda like Joe Rogan.
Does anyone still defend the vaccines? Is there anyone who admits their complete folly and foolishness promoting that poison?
So you're glad you took a placebo? Kay. And yes, the vaccines worked then and work now.
Everyone is presenting anecdotes here, but I can tell you from the front lines when the vaccine came out there was a huge difference in people presenting to the ER that were vaccinated and those that weren't. The unvaccinated had a significantly higher chance of getting admitted or dying. The vaccinated cases were pretty mild, even in the elderly. Saw seemingly healthy people in their 40's get ICU stays, and on rare occasion die.
I personally only saw one vaccinated person die last September from COVID. But he was also morbidly obese.
Again, these are all anecdotes. I'm sure you've seen plenty of unvaccinated people not die, and plenty of vaccinated people die. But this is just what I saw in the ER and ICU.
- Why did so many people with the vaccine get Covid?
- Why did so many people with the vaccine pass Covid to others?
- Why did the medical community feel the need to change the definition of what a vaccine was?
Like most people, I'm not anti-vaccine. If you're elderly, it is worth the risk to take it IMO. I'm just anti mandated vaccine. I'm also anti to the overreaction that we had to Covid (ex. not letting family in with their dying relatives, forcing mandates on people who had already had it, etc). Hopefully we learned...but I doubt it.
-Not sure if you really care - but just like the flu vaccine, people with the COVID vaccine will still get COVID. For reasons above, as well as waning immunity over time.
-Again, the vaccine was shown to shorten illness duration and severity, which decreased transmission rates, but if you still get covid, you get covid. The study for pfizer and moderna actually was never designed to study whether it prevented infection, it was only designed to see if it prevented symptomatic infection.
-I'm not sure how to answer this question.
Sapper Redux said:
Kory? The guy who was found to be falsifying his data? That Kory? Kay.
This is not true. You are lying again.
- There's a reason most people call it a flu shot, and not a flu vaccine. The Covid response was positioned as a full on vaccine. But maybe you're right, I hear of a lot of people getting vaccines for polio, whooping cough, mumps, and measles and still coming down with those diseases.bigtruckguy3500 said:Yes. Just like all vaccines in history, efficacy is limited by the natural evolution of the virus. Just like the influenza vaccine. SARS COV2 is an RNA virus which is highly unstable. Some RNA viruses are more unstable than others, and this is very unstable. As such there are thousands of variants that have been sequenced. However evolutionary pressure ends up selecting for a few that vaccines try to focus on.RAB91 said:It worked.... for a short time. But once a new variant came into the population, that changed. And someone can correct me, but I think that was only 5-7 months after the initial vaccine came out. If it continued to work so well...bigtruckguy3500 said:Honestly it's amazing to me that educated individuals don't believe the COVID vaccine worked.RAB91 said:It really is amazing that an 'educated' person still believes that the Covid vaccines work now. I'm guessing these same type of people still discount natural immunity (and probably wore masks outside).Sapper Redux said:snowdog90 said:Star Wars Memes Only said:
Wow, this video is so incredibly stupid.
Really glad I skipped the vax and took ivermectin when I got covid. Better immediately and back to work asap. Kinda like Joe Rogan.
Does anyone still defend the vaccines? Is there anyone who admits their complete folly and foolishness promoting that poison?
So you're glad you took a placebo? Kay. And yes, the vaccines worked then and work now.
Everyone is presenting anecdotes here, but I can tell you from the front lines when the vaccine came out there was a huge difference in people presenting to the ER that were vaccinated and those that weren't. The unvaccinated had a significantly higher chance of getting admitted or dying. The vaccinated cases were pretty mild, even in the elderly. Saw seemingly healthy people in their 40's get ICU stays, and on rare occasion die.
I personally only saw one vaccinated person die last September from COVID. But he was also morbidly obese.
Again, these are all anecdotes. I'm sure you've seen plenty of unvaccinated people not die, and plenty of vaccinated people die. But this is just what I saw in the ER and ICU.
- Why did so many people with the vaccine get Covid?
- Why did so many people with the vaccine pass Covid to others?
- Why did the medical community feel the need to change the definition of what a vaccine was?
Like most people, I'm not anti-vaccine. If you're elderly, it is worth the risk to take it IMO. I'm just anti mandated vaccine. I'm also anti to the overreaction that we had to Covid (ex. not letting family in with their dying relatives, forcing mandates on people who had already had it, etc). Hopefully we learned...but I doubt it.
-Not sure if you really care - but just like the flu vaccine, people with the COVID vaccine will still get COVID. For reasons above, as well as waning immunity over time.
-Again, the vaccine was shown to shorten illness duration and severity, which decreased transmission rates, but if you still get covid, you get covid. The study for pfizer and moderna actually was never designed to study whether it prevented infection, it was only designed to see if it prevented symptomatic infection.
-I'm not sure how to answer this question.
- Same as above... I hear of a lot of people getting vaccines for polio, whooping cough, mumps, and measles and still passing those diseases to others.
- I'll answer it for you. It wasn't as effective as they thought it would be so they changed the definition multiple times to keep lowering the bar.
It's a flu vaccine. It's colloquially called a shot. Research on the flu shots explicitly call them vaccines. To claim that a vaccine is only a vaccine if 100% of recipients never ever get the illness misrepresents what a vaccine is and the history of vaccines. We've known that herd immunity is an important factor in the effectiveness of many vaccines including flu, measles, and COVID.
While it may technically be a vaccine, it is interesting that CVS and Walgreens call it a flu shot on their web sites. It is amusing how much you've lowered the bar for the Covid vaccine. But I guess you have to do that in order to keep claiming that it is still successful. Who knew the Branch Covidians migrated over to this board from F84.Sapper Redux said:
It's a flu vaccine. It's colloquially called a shot. Research on the flu shots explicitly call them vaccines. To claim that a vaccine is only a vaccine if 100% of recipients never ever get the illness misrepresents what a vaccine is and the history of vaccines. We've known that herd immunity is an important factor in the effectiveness of many vaccines including flu, measles, and COVID.
I dunno what to tell you man. Lots of people call tomatoes vegetables, and it's usually in the vegetable section of the grocery store. But it's actually a fruit. If you're applying the same kind of logic here, I have nothing further.RAB91 said:While it may technically be a vaccine, it is interesting that CVS and Walgreens call it a flu shot on their web sites. It is amusing how much you've lowered the bar for the Covid vaccine. But I guess you have to do that in order to keep claiming that it is still successful. Who knew the Branch Covidians migrated over to this board from F84.Sapper Redux said:
It's a flu vaccine. It's colloquially called a shot. Research on the flu shots explicitly call them vaccines. To claim that a vaccine is only a vaccine if 100% of recipients never ever get the illness misrepresents what a vaccine is and the history of vaccines. We've known that herd immunity is an important factor in the effectiveness of many vaccines including flu, measles, and COVID.
bigtruckguy3500 said:I dunno what to tell you man. Lots of people call tomatoes vegetables, and it's usually in the vegetable section of the grocery store. But it's actually a fruit. If you're applying the same kind of logic here, I have nothing further.RAB91 said:While it may technically be a vaccine, it is interesting that CVS and Walgreens call it a flu shot on their web sites. It is amusing how much you've lowered the bar for the Covid vaccine. But I guess you have to do that in order to keep claiming that it is still successful. Who knew the Branch Covidians migrated over to this board from F84.Sapper Redux said:
It's a flu vaccine. It's colloquially called a shot. Research on the flu shots explicitly call them vaccines. To claim that a vaccine is only a vaccine if 100% of recipients never ever get the illness misrepresents what a vaccine is and the history of vaccines. We've known that herd immunity is an important factor in the effectiveness of many vaccines including flu, measles, and COVID.
Bottom line: covid vaccine never worked and hurt or killed many thousands. I personally know 4 people who were harmed by the vaccine, all young. Thank God none were my 2 kids who were forced to get it to go to college. They got it without my knowledge.
My oldest graduated and works at an Austin children's hospital. He was forced to get a flu shot. And wouldn't you know, he got really sick with the flu a few months back.
I never get a flu shot and I never get the flu.
snowdog90 said:bigtruckguy3500 said:I dunno what to tell you man. Lots of people call tomatoes vegetables, and it's usually in the vegetable section of the grocery store. But it's actually a fruit. If you're applying the same kind of logic here, I have nothing further.RAB91 said:While it may technically be a vaccine, it is interesting that CVS and Walgreens call it a flu shot on their web sites. It is amusing how much you've lowered the bar for the Covid vaccine. But I guess you have to do that in order to keep claiming that it is still successful. Who knew the Branch Covidians migrated over to this board from F84.Sapper Redux said:
It's a flu vaccine. It's colloquially called a shot. Research on the flu shots explicitly call them vaccines. To claim that a vaccine is only a vaccine if 100% of recipients never ever get the illness misrepresents what a vaccine is and the history of vaccines. We've known that herd immunity is an important factor in the effectiveness of many vaccines including flu, measles, and COVID.
Bottom line: covid vaccine never worked and hurt or killed many thousands. I personally know 4 people who were harmed by the vaccine, all young. Thank God none were my 2 kids who were forced to get it to go to college. They got it without my knowledge.
My oldest graduated and works at an Austin children's hospital. He was forced to get a flu shot. And wouldn't you know, he got really sick with the flu a few months back.
I never get a flu shot and I never get the flu.
This is objectively false.
Macarthur said:snowdog90 said:bigtruckguy3500 said:I dunno what to tell you man. Lots of people call tomatoes vegetables, and it's usually in the vegetable section of the grocery store. But it's actually a fruit. If you're applying the same kind of logic here, I have nothing further.RAB91 said:While it may technically be a vaccine, it is interesting that CVS and Walgreens call it a flu shot on their web sites. It is amusing how much you've lowered the bar for the Covid vaccine. But I guess you have to do that in order to keep claiming that it is still successful. Who knew the Branch Covidians migrated over to this board from F84.Sapper Redux said:
It's a flu vaccine. It's colloquially called a shot. Research on the flu shots explicitly call them vaccines. To claim that a vaccine is only a vaccine if 100% of recipients never ever get the illness misrepresents what a vaccine is and the history of vaccines. We've known that herd immunity is an important factor in the effectiveness of many vaccines including flu, measles, and COVID.
Bottom line: covid vaccine never worked and hurt or killed many thousands. I personally know 4 people who were harmed by the vaccine, all young. Thank God none were my 2 kids who were forced to get it to go to college. They got it without my knowledge.
My oldest graduated and works at an Austin children's hospital. He was forced to get a flu shot. And wouldn't you know, he got really sick with the flu a few months back.
I never get a flu shot and I never get the flu.
This is objectively false.
You believe what you want. I got covid really bad once and got significantly better within hours of taking ivermectin. I've never gotten it again. People I know that are vaccinated and boosted are still getting covid. Thank God they're still alive.
But hey, be sure to get your next booster. Pfizer and Moderna are counting on it.
snowdog90 said:bigtruckguy3500 said:I dunno what to tell you man. Lots of people call tomatoes vegetables, and it's usually in the vegetable section of the grocery store. But it's actually a fruit. If you're applying the same kind of logic here, I have nothing further.RAB91 said:While it may technically be a vaccine, it is interesting that CVS and Walgreens call it a flu shot on their web sites. It is amusing how much you've lowered the bar for the Covid vaccine. But I guess you have to do that in order to keep claiming that it is still successful. Who knew the Branch Covidians migrated over to this board from F84.Sapper Redux said:
It's a flu vaccine. It's colloquially called a shot. Research on the flu shots explicitly call them vaccines. To claim that a vaccine is only a vaccine if 100% of recipients never ever get the illness misrepresents what a vaccine is and the history of vaccines. We've known that herd immunity is an important factor in the effectiveness of many vaccines including flu, measles, and COVID.
Bottom line: covid vaccine never worked and hurt or killed many thousands. I personally know 4 people who were harmed by the vaccine, all young. Thank God none were my 2 kids who were forced to get it to go to college. They got it without my knowledge.
My oldest graduated and works at an Austin children's hospital. He was forced to get a flu shot. And wouldn't you know, he got really sick with the flu a few months back.
I never get a flu shot and I never get the flu.
Do you rely entirely on anecdotal information and conclusions drawn from personal bias for all your medical decisions?
Sapper Redux said:snowdog90 said:bigtruckguy3500 said:I dunno what to tell you man. Lots of people call tomatoes vegetables, and it's usually in the vegetable section of the grocery store. But it's actually a fruit. If you're applying the same kind of logic here, I have nothing further.RAB91 said:While it may technically be a vaccine, it is interesting that CVS and Walgreens call it a flu shot on their web sites. It is amusing how much you've lowered the bar for the Covid vaccine. But I guess you have to do that in order to keep claiming that it is still successful. Who knew the Branch Covidians migrated over to this board from F84.Sapper Redux said:
It's a flu vaccine. It's colloquially called a shot. Research on the flu shots explicitly call them vaccines. To claim that a vaccine is only a vaccine if 100% of recipients never ever get the illness misrepresents what a vaccine is and the history of vaccines. We've known that herd immunity is an important factor in the effectiveness of many vaccines including flu, measles, and COVID.
Bottom line: covid vaccine never worked and hurt or killed many thousands. I personally know 4 people who were harmed by the vaccine, all young. Thank God none were my 2 kids who were forced to get it to go to college. They got it without my knowledge.
My oldest graduated and works at an Austin children's hospital. He was forced to get a flu shot. And wouldn't you know, he got really sick with the flu a few months back.
I never get a flu shot and I never get the flu.
Do you rely entirely on anecdotal information and conclusions drawn from personal bias for all your medical decisions?
Lol. No, genius. As I described above, I listen to medical professionals and use my judgment and experience to make my own decisions.
I don't get the flu, so I don't want a flu shot. People I know that get the flu, many times have gotten it after getting the flu shot. My son is just the latest example.
My nurse practitioner friend and several doctors said "take ivermectin to protect against covid". I started taking it and didn't get covid.
I stopped taking it because I thought I was Superman and wouldn't get covid. I was wrong. I got covid 3 or so months after stopping ivermectin. I took ivermectin immediately. I felt 90% better in hours.
A rational person would see this and say, "hey maybe ivermectin works. Maybe all those doctors who were prescribing ivermectin were on to something. Maybe those countries that used ivermectin (Japan, India, Peru) and got great results knew what they were doing. Maybe the *******s that said said ivermectin doesn't work were lying so they could profit from a poorly tested, rushed vaccine".
That's what a rational person might think. But you're not rational. You immediately yell "placebo"!! Even though my story mirrors EXACTLY what thousands of others experienced after taking ivermectin, you still say it's a placebo. This includes Joe Rogan, who called the best guy he knew and that guy prescribed him ivermectin.
But you know better than the best doctor Joe Rogan could find. Yeah, whatever. Rogan was better in a day, just like me. But Anthony Fauci was too busy telling hospitals and doctors to use Remdesivir... REMDESIVIR!!! Remdesivir killed thousands, thanks to Fauci.
See, Remdesivir was expensive, so big pharma liked giving it. Thousands of dollars a dose as opposed to less than 10 dollars a dose for ivermectin. So, they killed thousands with Remdesivir, but at least they got paid.
I saw a report that Fauci made 300 million dollars during the pandemic. You should send him a picture so he can think of you while spending his money.
The covid vaccine was a money grab that would not have been possible if they admitted ivermectin cures covid. They hoped the vaccine would work, but it didn't. Blood clots, myocarditis, Bells Palsey, citokine storm, pericarditis, strokes... In the end, they didn't care. Pfizer and Moderna had billions in profit to make, as did Fauci.
It's like AI wrote a rant for RFK, Jr.
Sapper Redux said:
It's like AI wrote a rant for RFK, Jr.
This is exactly the vapid response I expected. You have nothing.
RFK jr is awesome, btw. Easy to see why you would hate him. The left is telling you to. Must obey.
Covid pissed me off. The vaccines pissed me off. Complete morons who continue to believe the insane, blatant, obvious lies and propaganda the covid overlords spouted piss me off. Blood is on their hands and I'll never let them forget.
But again, don't be late for your next booster.
I appreciate your honesty about having no answers to the lower standards for the Covid vaccine. Thanks.bigtruckguy3500 said:I dunno what to tell you man. Lots of people call tomatoes vegetables, and it's usually in the vegetable section of the grocery store. But it's actually a fruit. If you're applying the same kind of logic here, I have nothing further.RAB91 said:While it may technically be a vaccine, it is interesting that CVS and Walgreens call it a flu shot on their web sites. It is amusing how much you've lowered the bar for the Covid vaccine. But I guess you have to do that in order to keep claiming that it is still successful. Who knew the Branch Covidians migrated over to this board from F84.Sapper Redux said:
It's a flu vaccine. It's colloquially called a shot. Research on the flu shots explicitly call them vaccines. To claim that a vaccine is only a vaccine if 100% of recipients never ever get the illness misrepresents what a vaccine is and the history of vaccines. We've known that herd immunity is an important factor in the effectiveness of many vaccines including flu, measles, and COVID.
snowdog90 said:Sapper Redux said:
It's like AI wrote a rant for RFK, Jr.
This is exactly the vapid response I expected. You have nothing.
RFK jr is awesome, btw. Easy to see why you would hate him. The left is telling you to. Must obey.
Covid pissed me off. The vaccines pissed me off. Complete morons who continue to believe the insane, blatant, obvious lies and propaganda the covid overlords spouted piss me off. Blood is on their hands and I'll never let them forget.
But again, don't be late for your next booster.
There's been plenty of discussion here and elsewhere about the actual science behind the vaccines and the response to Covid. You're not providing anything except your personal anecdotes, one thoroughly disgraced doctor, and Joe Rogan (for some ****ing reason) as some kind of medical authority.
All I know is I know more people (4), including my mother, who ended up in the hospital after taking the """"vaccine """" than ended up dying from the covid (1).
I've seen multiple people die of Covid. Haven't seen a single vaccine death or injury. My anecdote beats your anecdote. If only there was a systematic method for analyzing data rather than relying on personal claims.
I have seen both. Still seeing probable vax reactions and have healthy patients who got the vax who have had strange thrombotic cardiac events which I have not seen before the vax. So those are my anecdotal stories.Sapper Redux said:
I've seen multiple people die of Covid. Haven't seen a single vaccine death or injury. My anecdote beats your anecdote. If only there was a systematic method for analyzing data rather than relying on personal claims.
My personal observation is that the vax probably reduced morbidity and mortality in 2021. Not sure after that. And from my reading and research the data is all over the place.
I got the first two shots as I was 65 in 2020 and kept seeing patients. Got one booster after that and in retrospect I regret that. Unlike the flu shot, I now believe every time your body is exposed to the spike protein there can be problems.
If my patients ask (and they ask me about everything related to their health), I always say that I am not getting any more Covid shots.
And it is their decision. As long as there are no government mandates, then patients should be able to gather information and make their own decisions.
I personally do not think it is near as cut and dried as the pro vaxxers and anti vaxxers make it.
If I was 25 rather than 65 I would never have gotten the vax.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Sapper Redux said:
I've seen multiple people die of Covid. Haven't seen a single vaccine death or injury. My anecdote beats your anecdote. If only there was a systematic method for analyzing data rather than relying on personal claims.
Dude, the amount of mental energy you're putting into this debate isn't worth it. It's like trying to win an argument with a child. No matter how much evidence or logic you produce, they'll just say you're wrong because you're just wrong and they're right. When someone creates their own framework of logic to justify their beliefs, you are just in 2 different bubbles and communication won't reach the other.
As someone who is turning 69 tomorrow, I hope you are calling me a child.bigtruckguy3500 said:Sapper Redux said:
I've seen multiple people die of Covid. Haven't seen a single vaccine death or injury. My anecdote beats your anecdote. If only there was a systematic method for analyzing data rather than relying on personal claims.
Dude, the amount of mental energy you're putting into this debate isn't worth it. It's like trying to win an argument with a child. No matter how much evidence or logic you produce, they'll just say you're wrong because you're just wrong and they're right. When someone creates their own framework of logic to justify their beliefs, you are just in 2 different bubbles and communication won't reach the other.
Will just leave this here.
https://www.floridahealth.gov/newsroom/2023/02/20230215-updated-health-alert.pr.html
And you can get studies that support your views. This is very common in medicine. Taking absolute unwavering positions is usually a fool's game.
As long as there are not mandates, I am all for patient's garnering all the info and making the best choice for them.
I will not get any more Covid shots or advise patients to get them.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
And for all you Covid warriors, let's do masks. And how stupid and useless mask mandates were.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
While I don't 100% agree with your views, your position is reasonable and thought out, and shows an understanding of evidence. You admitted that the vaccine works, and that those that are elderly or frail in some manner should get it. You didn't espouse anecdotes as proof, nor did you think a colloquial name for a vaccine means it's not actually a vaccine. Plus a number of other surprising things I've read in this thread.
As someone as that still is in close contact with patients (potentially within inches of their face), I'd prefer to continue to get my vaccines, including flu and COVID.
As someone as that still is in close contact with patients (potentially within inches of their face), I'd prefer to continue to get my vaccines, including flu and COVID.
dermdoc said:As someone who is turning 69 tomorrow, I hope you are calling me a child.bigtruckguy3500 said:Sapper Redux said:
I've seen multiple people die of Covid. Haven't seen a single vaccine death or injury. My anecdote beats your anecdote. If only there was a systematic method for analyzing data rather than relying on personal claims.
Dude, the amount of mental energy you're putting into this debate isn't worth it. It's like trying to win an argument with a child. No matter how much evidence or logic you produce, they'll just say you're wrong because you're just wrong and they're right. When someone creates their own framework of logic to justify their beliefs, you are just in 2 different bubbles and communication won't reach the other.
Will just leave this here.
https://www.floridahealth.gov/newsroom/2023/02/20230215-updated-health-alert.pr.html
And you can get studies that support your views. This is very common in medicine. Taking absolute unwavering positions is usually a fool's game.
As long as there are not mandates, I am all for patient's garnering all the info and making the best choice for them.
I will not get any more Covid shots or advise patients to get them.
Hey dermdoc. Thanks for your input. You going to the baseball game later?
Since bigtruckguy and sapper probably won't click your link, I've quoted it below...
"In Florida alone, there was a 1,700% increase in VAERS reports after the release of the COVID-19 vaccine, compared to an increase of 400% in overall vaccine administration for the same time period (Figure 1).
The reporting of life-threatening conditions increased over 4,400%. This is a novel increase and was not seen during the 2009 H1N1 vaccination campaign. There is a need for additional unbiased research to better understand the COVID-19 vaccines' short- and long-term effects."
That is so incredibly damning to the vaccines.
And I disagree with you that the vaccines helped anyone. I concede that I could be wrong. Maybe they did some good, though it is totally unproven. But the amount of harm they've done totally destroys whatever good anyone thinks they might have done.
I have some more things to say, but I'll leave it at this for now. For those that do not concede that the vaccines have caused harm is to have your head in the sand to a degree that I just don't understand. It's like believing OJ was innocent.
I see 50-60 people a day. So I am "high risk". To my knowledge, have never had the flu. Or Covid even though we saw patients all through 2020 before the vaccines. Have only missed one day for being sick since 1981.bigtruckguy3500 said:
While I don't 100% agree with your views, your position is reasonable and thought out, and shows an understanding of evidence. You admitted that the vaccine works, and that those that are elderly or frail in some manner should get it. You didn't espouse anecdotes as proof, nor did you think a colloquial name for a vaccine means it's not actually a vaccine. Plus a number of other surprising things I've read in this thread.
As someone as that still is in close contact with patients (potentially within inches of their face), I'd prefer to continue to get my vaccines, including flu and COVID.
I firmly believe the less exposure of the spike protein to your body, the better. And I do not believe the new Covid vax keeps you from getting Covid.
With the vax, you choose to get a spike protein exposure. You may or may not get Covid.
I honestly do not know why anyone would get a Covid vaccine unless they had co morbidities. And the only reason I get a flu shot is the hospital makes me.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
it's not damning and the 2009 H1N1 flu shot is not a good analog. since the covid vaccines were not FDA approved, they had different reporting requirements for medical professionals (i.e., stricter). All things being equal, we would expect higher rates of VAERS reports. that's what we saw.
more heads i win tails you lose approach here, because it says we need "unbiased" research. translated: research that agrees with my preconceived notions.
the "amount of harm" you're presenting mostly exists in your imagination.
more heads i win tails you lose approach here, because it says we need "unbiased" research. translated: research that agrees with my preconceived notions.
the "amount of harm" you're presenting mostly exists in your imagination.
Do you understand how VAERS works and the problems with claiming it as evidence of anything?
bigtruckguy:
You're a doctor, iirc, correct? If so, would like your opinion on something. To clear the air, I believe that the Covid vaccines appear to have worked very well on the early versions of the virus. Although I hoped strongly that ivermectin would work, I've seen no convincing evidence that it does and seen study after study that it does not. I had both of the original Covid shots and two boosters and have had no ill effects from them. I've never had Covid, as far as I know.
When I saw a pulmonologist on an unrelated matter about a year ago, he asked if I had received the latest booster. I replied that I had not because 1) the boosters seem to be designed for the last, previous version of Covid, not what's prevalent when they're released, and 2) their effectiveness is now really short, say 3 months or less. His response was that he could not argue with that. Do you agree? If not, why not?
I'm not at all trying to argue with you, but rather trying to get your perspective and any additional info you might have.
You're a doctor, iirc, correct? If so, would like your opinion on something. To clear the air, I believe that the Covid vaccines appear to have worked very well on the early versions of the virus. Although I hoped strongly that ivermectin would work, I've seen no convincing evidence that it does and seen study after study that it does not. I had both of the original Covid shots and two boosters and have had no ill effects from them. I've never had Covid, as far as I know.
When I saw a pulmonologist on an unrelated matter about a year ago, he asked if I had received the latest booster. I replied that I had not because 1) the boosters seem to be designed for the last, previous version of Covid, not what's prevalent when they're released, and 2) their effectiveness is now really short, say 3 months or less. His response was that he could not argue with that. Do you agree? If not, why not?
I'm not at all trying to argue with you, but rather trying to get your perspective and any additional info you might have.
I think threads like this show why even claimed atheists have more faith than most Christians.
After COVID, everybody is far more aware of what VAERS is and does.
But the position you're trying to defend is essentially unfalsifiable.
Yes VAERS has it's limitations, but it's what we have and what the government says is the best they can do. You could be a cynic and say there's a reason they created a limited system, but until something else shows up it's the best we've got.
The counter though is that in most cases, these vaccines have gone through years or decades of testing and trials and so VAERS can be good because there "should" only be outliers.
But clearly the COVID vaccines are different. They didn't go through years of testing and trials and the tech is relatively new in this application. So it "should" be expected because the trials are essentially occurring in real time.
So now we have a dilemma. The promises of the vaccines are certainly not correct and VAERS is showing problems. So we could acknowledge there are significant problems that should be looked into or we could put our fingers in our ears and hum really loud so we don't hear the truth.
So we have a government who does not want to find issues. A medical community who we know is bought and paid for, and a reporting system not designed for this, yet being asked to deal with it.
After COVID, everybody is far more aware of what VAERS is and does.
But the position you're trying to defend is essentially unfalsifiable.
Yes VAERS has it's limitations, but it's what we have and what the government says is the best they can do. You could be a cynic and say there's a reason they created a limited system, but until something else shows up it's the best we've got.
The counter though is that in most cases, these vaccines have gone through years or decades of testing and trials and so VAERS can be good because there "should" only be outliers.
But clearly the COVID vaccines are different. They didn't go through years of testing and trials and the tech is relatively new in this application. So it "should" be expected because the trials are essentially occurring in real time.
So now we have a dilemma. The promises of the vaccines are certainly not correct and VAERS is showing problems. So we could acknowledge there are significant problems that should be looked into or we could put our fingers in our ears and hum really loud so we don't hear the truth.
So we have a government who does not want to find issues. A medical community who we know is bought and paid for, and a reporting system not designed for this, yet being asked to deal with it.
VAERS is a self-reported system to allow researchers to identify and explore possible problems. It is not at all a peer-reviewed source. It is not a list of known vaccine-related problems. It is people (literally anyone) claiming a medical condition that they believe may be due to a vaccine. To use it uncritically as evidence of a problem with a vaccine is asinine.
VAERS isn't showing problems. That's the whole issue with the argument. VAERS is showing reports. Mandatory reporting for a vaccine under EUA is guaranteed to generate more reports. The volume of entries into VAERS has no correlation to vaccine problems in and of itself.
Yes.Jabin said:
When I saw a pulmonologist on an unrelated matter about a year ago, he asked if I had received the latest booster. I replied that I had not because 1) the boosters seem to be designed for the last, previous version of Covid, not what's prevalent when they're released, and 2) their effectiveness is now really short, say 3 months or less. His response was that he could not argue with that. Do you agree? If not, why not?
Bottom line up front: Overall I'd agree, but with some nuance, explained below:
-You're kinda of correct, in that the most recent COVID vaccine seems to be targeted towards the most dominant strain at time of production. This may OR may not be the most dominant strain at the time you get your booster. And even if it is the most dominant strain at the time people start getting the booster, that will create a selective pressure that will make that strain less dominant over time.
-There is data that shows that even if you are infected by a strain not covered by the vaccine, that you'll still have a faster immune response/less severe infection than if you hadn't had any exposure at all.
-Each vaccine will give your immune system a slight "memory." In fact there are these "memory T cells" that your body produces that will circulate looking for virus. However if there is no repeat exposure, that cellular memory gradually fades. The people with robust reactions to the vaccine or infection will likely have a longer immune system memory, but it's dependent on multiple factors.
-So if you were vaccinated, and then exposed to COVID within a month, you would likely have a minimally symptomatic illness. And then if you keep getting exposed, say monthly, to one strain after another (the next evolution of each strain) you'd likely never get COVID again until there's a big shift in proteins of the virus.
I remember the early doctors that were getting hospitalized and dying were because they were intubating patients without masks on. Intubation is a very close procedure and they were getting large viral loads. I do intubate people in respiratory failure every so often, and while I do not believe current strains of COVID are lethal, I do not want to get a big puff in the face of anything that could take me down for days. Most of us now wear masks and safety glasses while intubating, which was not common at all prior to COVID. But even still I've had to run into a room without my protection before.
That being said, I don't plan on getting every booster. My plan is likely to get every other booster, as I'm exposed to all kinds of colds and viruses all the time, and I'm pretty sure I've been exposed to COVID a few dozen times without developing symptoms over the past year.
Thanks. Good explanation.
Sapper Redux said:
VAERS is a self-reported system to allow researchers to identify and explore possible problems. It is not at all a peer-reviewed source. It is not a list of known vaccine-related problems. It is people (literally anyone) claiming a medical condition that they believe may be due to a vaccine. To use it uncritically as evidence of a problem with a vaccine is asinine.
This is just laughable. You will grasp at anything to defend your precious vaccine. VAERS is the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System. It's the only system used for vaccine adverse events. The covid vaccine caused more reports from 2021 than all other vaccines combined since VAERS was created.
It's THE system. Most doctors say the events are UNDER reported.
You act like this data is all of a sudden unreliable since covid came out, as if it's just a bunch of pranksters thinking it would be fun to hoax covid adverse events.
Covid vaccine adverse events are numerous and serious. Blood clots, strokes, heart issues, neurological issues, the list goes on and on. To act like this doesn't exist is naive or just a lie.
VAERS data alone cannot determine if the vaccine caused the reported adverse event.
This specific limitation has caused confusion about the publicly available data, specifically regarding the number of reported deaths. In the past there have been instances where people misinterpreted reports of death following vaccination as death caused by the vaccines; that is a mistake.
VAERS accepts all reports of adverse events following vaccination without judging whether the vaccine caused the adverse health event. Some reports to VAERS might represent true vaccine reactions, and others might be coincidental adverse health events not related to vaccination at all.
Generally, a causal relationship cannot be established using information from VAERS reports alone.
The number of reports submitted to VAERS may increase in response to media attention and increased public awareness.
It is not possible to use VAERS data to calculate how often an adverse event occurs in a population.
HTH
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/ensuringsafety/monitoring/vaers/index.html#anchor_1595527172335
This specific limitation has caused confusion about the publicly available data, specifically regarding the number of reported deaths. In the past there have been instances where people misinterpreted reports of death following vaccination as death caused by the vaccines; that is a mistake.
VAERS accepts all reports of adverse events following vaccination without judging whether the vaccine caused the adverse health event. Some reports to VAERS might represent true vaccine reactions, and others might be coincidental adverse health events not related to vaccination at all.
Generally, a causal relationship cannot be established using information from VAERS reports alone.
The number of reports submitted to VAERS may increase in response to media attention and increased public awareness.
It is not possible to use VAERS data to calculate how often an adverse event occurs in a population.
HTH
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/ensuringsafety/monitoring/vaers/index.html#anchor_1595527172335
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