Should Christians tell transgender females that they are, indeed, female?

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M1Buckeye
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4:43a, 9/1/21
Jesus said, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Jesus also said, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself".

Does that mean that we are to tell males, who self-identify as females, that they are, indeed, female? Is it loving to go along with the person's wishes and refer to him as "she" and "her"? In other words, does Jesus expect us to say something that we KNOW to be untrue in order to be considerate of another's feelings? Did Jesus ask us to LIE?

For the sake of this discussion, let's presuppose that the answer is "YES". Does it follow, then, that we are to treat others in the same manner?

For instance, there are some grown adults that claim to be infants. Should we go along with their claim?

What about a person who claims to be Jesus? Are we to treat them as if they are Jesus in order to be considerate of their feelings?

Clearly, the answer is, NO.

While we must love one another, lying to another is NOT a loving act. We must NOT condemn them, however. If you're going to condemn another, start with yourself for your own plethora of sins. Better yet, don't condemn anyone, unless you want Jesus to condemn you.

If I was close to a transgender person, I would gently and lovingly inform them that I will not refer to them as something that I know they are not. That's not to say that I would go out of my way to "rub it in their face", so to speak, but if put on the spot, I'm going, to tell the truth, and so should any Christian.



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swimmerbabe11
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5:06a, 9/1/21
sigh. this thread has happened enough times, hasn't it?
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dermdoc
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In reply to swimmerbabe11 • 5:25a, 9/1/21
AG
swimmerbabe11 said:
sigh. this thread has happened enough times, hasn't it?


Yep. It gets so tiresome.

Love God, love your neighbor.

Don't be a busybody.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

I am not Jesus and neither are you. I know and love him, but I am not Him.
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M1Buckeye
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In reply to dermdoc • 5:32a, 9/1/21
dermdoc said:
swimmerbabe11 said:
sigh. this thread has happened enough times, hasn't it?


Yep. It gets so tiresome.

Love God, love your neighbor.

Don't be a busybody.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

I am not Jesus and neither are you. I know and love him, but I am not Him.

Well, I'm new here so the topic is new to me as well.

Is my view mistaken? Do you believe that Jesus would tell us to affirm to transgender women that they are, in fact, women?
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PacifistAg
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In reply to swimmerbabe11 • 5:39a, 9/1/21
AG
swimmerbabe11 said:
sigh. this thread has happened enough times, hasn't it?

Yes. This thread, like all of them, will turn into nothing but mocking and insults of trans people. It's textbook "punching down".

Heck, even the thread title implies I'm not a Christian, yet this guy believes he asks this in good faith.
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dermdoc
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In reply to M1Buckeye • 5:41a, 9/1/21
AG
I do not know.

Do you?

It just baffles me why this topic seems so important to Christians.

And please show me one time Christ condemned anyone except religious leaders. Not the adulteress. Not the prostitute. Not the tax collector.

He seemed to really dislike the holier than thou crowd.

May I ask why this one subject bothers you so much?

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PacifistAg
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5:44a, 9/1/21
AG
This will be the last I'll say on this, especially before the usual suspects show up. Greg Boyd and Dan Kent address this question in this short podcast:



But, in the end, I'm sure most won't listen to the podcast, and most won't listen to the actual trans person. There will be a lot of "but it's truth in love" nonsense, mocking, and insults from trolls and those who literally want to emulate the Taliban. So have at it. Your approval isn't needed, nor does it impact my faith. Misgendering me intentionally will just let me know who to avoid.
Quote:
If I was close to a transgender person

And therein lies part of the OP's problem. He's likely never had a real conversation with a trans person, and his approach will guarantee that he'll never be close to a trans person. He's talking about a group he doesn't know or understand. All the while implying that we cannot be Christians every time he frames his bad faith questions as "Christian vs trans". Now, I'm done.
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dermdoc
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In reply to PacifistAg • 6:12a, 9/1/21
AG
I listened to the podcast and agree with Boyd.
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PacifistAg
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In reply to dermdoc • 6:23a, 9/1/21
AG
dermdoc said:
I listened to the podcast and agree with Boyd.

Oh, I figured you would listen. You're one of the good ones. There are many of my brothers and sisters here who, regardless of their views on my transition, have done nothing but treat me with love and respect. There are many who have never condemned my faith. People like you and those others are the reason I come back to this board. Thank you.
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M1Buckeye
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In reply to dermdoc • 6:27a, 9/1/21
dermdoc said:
And please show me one time Christ condemned anyone except religious leaders.
Who said anything about "condemning" anyone? On the contrary, I said that we must NOT condemn anyone lest we be condemned.

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dermdoc
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In reply to PacifistAg • 6:36a, 9/1/21
AG
PacifistAg said:
dermdoc said:
I listened to the podcast and agree with Boyd.

Oh, I figured you would listen. You're one of the good ones. There are many of my brothers and sisters here who, regardless of their views on my transition, have done nothing but treat me with love and respect. There are many who have never condemned my faith. People like you and those others are the reason I come back to this board. Thank you.


Thanks but only God is good. Just try to live like I believe the Lord would want me to.

And that cross is light. Jesus paid the price.
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dermdoc
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In reply to M1Buckeye • 6:37a, 9/1/21
AG
M1Buckeye said:
dermdoc said:
And please show me one time Christ condemned anyone except religious leaders.
Who said anything about "condemning" anyone? On the contrary, I said that we must NOT condemn anyone lest we be condemned.



Fair enough. I jumped to a conclusion that I should not have.

May I ask why this subject seems to dwell on you so much?
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PacifistAg
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In reply to dermdoc • 6:40a, 9/1/21
AG
But he really does condemn, at least our faith, when he frames every question as "Christian vs trans". It carries the implication that trans people are not Christian, and it's a point I've made to him before, yet he continues to ignore it. He even asked after I made several comments about how my important my faith is if I believed in Jesus. At least I think it was him.

But I understand why he would think in those terms, as he hasn't taken the time to become close enough to a trans person to understand that there are many trans Christians. In fact, my wife and I are helping several Christian couples through the early stages of transition right now.
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dermdoc
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6:53a, 9/1/21
AG
And instead of worrying over stuff like this, I have learned to be proactive. Visit a home bound church member or take them communion. Pray with people. Tell people what God has done for you.

Seems to work for me.
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PacifistAg
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In reply to dermdoc • 6:59a, 9/1/21
AG
dermdoc said:
And instead of worrying over stuff like this, I have learned to be proactive. Visit a home bound church member or take them communion. Pray with people. Tell people what God has done for you.

Seems to work for me.

Speaking of, we need to grab a drink sometime. Especially with the season starting up. Traffic though...whoa it's been worse than usual around campus.
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kurt vonnegut
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In reply to dermdoc • 7:14a, 9/1/21
AG
dermdoc said:

May I ask why this subject seems to dwell on you so much?

I think its just a 'new' topic. Or, 'new' in that previous generations put little thought into it or very rarely discussed the topic.
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M1Buckeye
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In reply to dermdoc • 7:21a, 9/1/21
dermdoc said:
M1Buckeye said:
dermdoc said:
And please show me one time Christ condemned anyone except religious leaders.
Who said anything about "condemning" anyone? On the contrary, I said that we must NOT condemn anyone lest we be condemned.



Fair enough. I jumped to a conclusion that I should not have.

May I ask why this subject seems to dwell on you so much?

That seems passive-aggressive. How many prior threads have I created on the topic?

As a Christian, do you try to live your life according to God's standards or your own?
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M1Buckeye
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In reply to PacifistAg • 7:22a, 9/1/21
PacifistAg said:
He even asked after I made several comments about how my important my faith is if I believed in Jesus. At least I think it was him.
That is not accurate.
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M1Buckeye
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7:26a, 9/1/21
Should Christians adhere to this commandment or should Christians go with the flow in order to please the world?

I've noticed in this forum a number of Christians that, apparently, don't believe the bible.

Romans 12:2

English Standard Version

2 Do not be conformed to this world,[a] but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.[b]
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PacifistAg
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In reply to M1Buckeye • 7:27a, 9/1/21
AG
M1Buckeye said:
PacifistAg said:
He even asked after I made several comments about how my important my faith is if I believed in Jesus. At least I think it was him.
That is not accurate.

https://texags.com/forums/15/topics/3221529/replies/60020172

You responded to my long post, where I mentioned how my faith is Christ is so much deeper today after transition literally by asking if I believe in Jesus.

M1Buckeye said:
PacifistAg said:

But I transitioned and haven't had any suicidal thoughts since.
Do you believe in Jesus?
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M1Buckeye
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In reply to PacifistAg • 7:32a, 9/1/21
PacifistAg said:
M1Buckeye said:
PacifistAg said:
He even asked after I made several comments about how my important my faith is if I believed in Jesus. At least I think it was him.
That is not accurate.

You responded to my long post, where I mentioned how my faith is Christ is so much deeper today after transition literally by asking if I believe in Jesus.

M1Buckeye said:
PacifistAg said:

But I transitioned and haven't had any suicidal thoughts since.
Do you believe in Jesus?
Yea, because I was BRAND NEW here and it was my first interaction with you. I was curious if you were a Christian, an atheist, or something else.

Please do not attribute statements or arguments to me that I have NOT made. To do so is to bear false witness. Thank you.

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dermdoc
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In reply to M1Buckeye • 7:32a, 9/1/21
AG
M1Buckeye said:
Should Christians adhere to this commandment or should Christians go with the flow in order to please the world?

I've noticed in this forum a number of Christians that, apparently, don't believe the bible.

Romans 12:2

English Standard Version

2 Do not be conformed to this world,[a] but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.[b]
I bet you and I interpret that a lot differently.

From my understanding, that meant do not conform to worldly thinking like greed, hatred, etc. To love your enemies. And to do stuff like I posted above which obviously brings no benefit to us in a worldly sense.

But whatever.

And I am not trying to be passive aggressive. It just really baffles me the concern of Christians with this topic.

Do you even know any transgender folks?

And if not, what is the purpose of this thread?
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PacifistAg
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In reply to M1Buckeye • 7:36a, 9/1/21
AG
M1Buckeye said:
PacifistAg said:
M1Buckeye said:
PacifistAg said:
He even asked after I made several comments about how my important my faith is if I believed in Jesus. At least I think it was him.
That is not accurate.

You responded to my long post, where I mentioned how my faith is Christ is so much deeper today after transition literally by asking if I believe in Jesus.

M1Buckeye said:
PacifistAg said:

But I transitioned and haven't had any suicidal thoughts since.
Do you believe in Jesus?
Yea, because I was BRAND NEW here and it was my first interaction with you. I was curious if you were a Christian, an atheist, or something else.

Please do not attribute statements or arguments to me that I have NOT made. To do so is to bear false witness. Thank you.


Get over yourself. You were caught in a lie, yet accuse me of bearing false witness. You responded to a post where I even talked about how much deeper my faith in God is since I transitioned.

Then you continually frame questions as "Christian vs trans". So yeah, you have condemned me. You've just done so in flowery language that you can hide behind and deny.
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M1Buckeye
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In reply to dermdoc • 7:36a, 9/1/21
dermdoc said:
M1Buckeye said:
Should Christians adhere to this commandment or should Christians go with the flow in order to please the world?

I've noticed in this forum a number of Christians that, apparently, don't believe the bible.

Romans 12:2

English Standard Version

2 Do not be conformed to this world,[a] but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.[b]
I bet you and I interpret that a lot differently.

From my understanding, that meant do not conform to worldly thinking like greed, hatred, etc. To love your enemies. And to do stuff like I posted above which obviously brings no benefit to us in a worldly sense.

But whatever.

And I am not trying to be passive aggressive. It just really baffles me the concern of Christians with this topic.

Do you even know any transgender folks?

And if not, what is the purpose of this thread?

This is the religion forum. As a Christian, I am discussing the topic from a Christian perspective. You can participate by sharing biblical truths that advance our understanding of this topic. Everything else is immaterial.
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dermdoc
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In reply to M1Buckeye • 7:38a, 9/1/21
AG
M1Buckeye said:
dermdoc said:
M1Buckeye said:
Should Christians adhere to this commandment or should Christians go with the flow in order to please the world?

I've noticed in this forum a number of Christians that, apparently, don't believe the bible.

Romans 12:2

English Standard Version

2 Do not be conformed to this world,[a] but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.[b]
I bet you and I interpret that a lot differently.

From my understanding, that meant do not conform to worldly thinking like greed, hatred, etc. To love your enemies. And to do stuff like I posted above which obviously brings no benefit to us in a worldly sense.

But whatever.

And I am not trying to be passive aggressive. It just really baffles me the concern of Christians with this topic.

Do you even know any transgender folks?

And if not, what is the purpose of this thread?

This is the religion forum. As a Christian, I am discussing the topic from a Christian perspective. You can participate by sharing biblical truths that advance our understanding of this topic. Everything else is immaterial.


Cool. Please cite Jesus saying anything about transgender folks.

Thanks.

Oh and please do not imply(as you did) that people who do not agree with you are not Christians.

Thanks again and God bless.
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M1Buckeye
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In reply to PacifistAg • 7:38a, 9/1/21
PacifistAg said:
M1Buckeye said:
PacifistAg said:
M1Buckeye said:
PacifistAg said:
He even asked after I made several comments about how my important my faith is if I believed in Jesus. At least I think it was him.
That is not accurate.

You responded to my long post, where I mentioned how my faith is Christ is so much deeper today after transition literally by asking if I believe in Jesus.

M1Buckeye said:
PacifistAg said:

But I transitioned and haven't had any suicidal thoughts since.
Do you believe in Jesus?
Yea, because I was BRAND NEW here and it was my first interaction with you. I was curious if you were a Christian, an atheist, or something else.

Please do not attribute statements or arguments to me that I have NOT made. To do so is to bear false witness. Thank you.


Get over yourself. You were caught in a lie, yet accuse me of bearing false witness. You responded to a post where I even talked about how much deeper my faith in God is since I transitioned.

Then you continually frame questions as "Christian vs trans". So yeah, you have condemned me. You've just done so in flowery language that you can hide behind and deny.

Wow. I will now "shake the dust from my sandals" (Matthew 10:14) and put you on "ignore". Good bye.
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PacifistAg
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In reply to dermdoc • 7:40a, 9/1/21
AG
Quote:
Do you even know any transgender folks?

No, he doesn't. His OP even says "If i was close to any transgender people..."

Quote:
And if not, what is the purpose of this thread?

My guess, he wants to be told how "right" he is. He certainly isn't interested in listening to any trans people. There is no apparent desire to learn and grow.

And look, he's now ignoring the one trans person on this board because I called him out on a lie.
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M1Buckeye
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In reply to dermdoc • 7:42a, 9/1/21
dermdoc said:
M1Buckeye said:
dermdoc said:
M1Buckeye said:
Should Christians adhere to this commandment or should Christians go with the flow in order to please the world?

I've noticed in this forum a number of Christians that, apparently, don't believe the bible.

Romans 12:2

English Standard Version

2 Do not be conformed to this world,[a] but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.[b]
I bet you and I interpret that a lot differently.

From my understanding, that meant do not conform to worldly thinking like greed, hatred, etc. To love your enemies. And to do stuff like I posted above which obviously brings no benefit to us in a worldly sense.

But whatever.

And I am not trying to be passive aggressive. It just really baffles me the concern of Christians with this topic.

Do you even know any transgender folks?

And if not, what is the purpose of this thread?

This is the religion forum. As a Christian, I am discussing the topic from a Christian perspective. You can participate by sharing biblical truths that advance our understanding of this topic. Everything else is immaterial.


Cool. Please cite Jesus saying anything about transgender folks.

Thanks.
I made my case in the OP. Thus far you've ignored all of it.

I initially appreciated your perspective on a number of topics, but now I am learning that your perspective is not rooted in Christianity but rather, the ways of the world.

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dermdoc
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In reply to M1Buckeye • 7:46a, 9/1/21
AG
M1Buckeye said:
dermdoc said:
M1Buckeye said:
dermdoc said:
M1Buckeye said:
Should Christians adhere to this commandment or should Christians go with the flow in order to please the world?

I've noticed in this forum a number of Christians that, apparently, don't believe the bible.

Romans 12:2

English Standard Version

2 Do not be conformed to this world,[a] but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.[b]
I bet you and I interpret that a lot differently.

From my understanding, that meant do not conform to worldly thinking like greed, hatred, etc. To love your enemies. And to do stuff like I posted above which obviously brings no benefit to us in a worldly sense.

But whatever.

And I am not trying to be passive aggressive. It just really baffles me the concern of Christians with this topic.

Do you even know any transgender folks?

And if not, what is the purpose of this thread?

This is the religion forum. As a Christian, I am discussing the topic from a Christian perspective. You can participate by sharing biblical truths that advance our understanding of this topic. Everything else is immaterial.


Cool. Please cite Jesus saying anything about transgender folks.

Thanks.
I made my case in the OP. Thus far you've ignored all of it.

I initially appreciated your perspective on a number of topics, but now I am learning that your perspective is not rooted in Christianity but rather, the ways of the world.



Just like clockwork. As long as I agree with you, I am a "good" Christian. If I don't, I am "of the world".

Might want to look in a mirror sir.

God bless.
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PacifistAg
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In reply to M1Buckeye • 7:46a, 9/1/21
AG
M1Buckeye said:
dermdoc said:
M1Buckeye said:
dermdoc said:
M1Buckeye said:
Should Christians adhere to this commandment or should Christians go with the flow in order to please the world?

I've noticed in this forum a number of Christians that, apparently, don't believe the bible.

Romans 12:2

English Standard Version

2 Do not be conformed to this world,[a] but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.[b]
I bet you and I interpret that a lot differently.

From my understanding, that meant do not conform to worldly thinking like greed, hatred, etc. To love your enemies. And to do stuff like I posted above which obviously brings no benefit to us in a worldly sense.

But whatever.

And I am not trying to be passive aggressive. It just really baffles me the concern of Christians with this topic.

Do you even know any transgender folks?

And if not, what is the purpose of this thread?

This is the religion forum. As a Christian, I am discussing the topic from a Christian perspective. You can participate by sharing biblical truths that advance our understanding of this topic. Everything else is immaterial.


Cool. Please cite Jesus saying anything about transgender folks.

Thanks.
I made my case in the OP. Thus far you've ignored all of it.

I initially appreciated your perspective on a number of topics, but now I am learning that your perspective is not rooted in Christianity but rather, the ways of the world.


Goodness. What self-righteous tripe. Derm is one of the finest brothers on this board.
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kurt vonnegut
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In reply to M1Buckeye • 7:47a, 9/1/21
AG
M1Buckeye said:
Jesus said, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Jesus also said, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself".

Does that mean that we are to tell males, who self-identify as females, that they are, indeed, female? Is it loving to go along with the person's wishes and refer to him as "she" and "her"? In other words, does Jesus expect us to say something that we KNOW to be untrue in order to be considerate of another's feelings? Did Jesus ask us to LIE?

For the sake of this discussion, let's presuppose that the answer is "YES". Does it follow, then, that we are to treat others in the same manner?

For instance, there are some grown adults that claim to be infants. Should we go along with their claim?

What about a person who claims to be Jesus? Are we to treat them as if they are Jesus in order to be considerate of their feelings?

Clearly, the answer is, NO.

While we must love one another, lying to another is NOT a loving act. We must NOT condemn them, however. If you're going to condemn another, start with yourself for your own plethora of sins. Better yet, don't condemn anyone, unless you want Jesus to condemn you.

If I was close to a transgender person, I would gently and lovingly inform them that I will not refer to them as something that I know they are not. That's not to say that I would go out of my way to "rub it in their face", so to speak, but if put on the spot, I'm going, to tell the truth, and so should any Christian.

My 2 cents -
To reject the pronouns as a lie, seems to me, to be a rejection that some people are transgender. And if that is the case, then I can understand seeing the pronouns as a lie. However, I would offer the following thought - I know what its like to be me and no one else. M1Buckeye knows what its like to be M1Buckeye and no one else. We all share common experiences, but it seems that it should be quite clear to anyone who has ever known someone else deeply, that many of our experiences are not the same. That is to say that we experience the world uniquely. We can listen to other people and learn something about who they are, how they think, and how they experience the world, but never fully know what its like to be them. Now, if I tell you that I believe I am an immortal half man - half alien from the planet Glorp and that this is how I experience the world. . . . well, I may just be nuts. But when millions of people share a common experience of feeling as though their biological sex and gender association are different, then it seems to ignore this is to, at least in part, to reject the idea that other people have experiences that are not the same as yours. If there was no issue with acknowledging that transgender people exist, I can't see an issue with using a pronoun that relates to a gender identity. I can call a trans woman 'she' and still understand that she was born with a *****. I don't see the dissonance in doing so.

edit - weird that the bleeped out a part of the anatomy. . . . I trust you all can figure out what I typed though.
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PacifistAg
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In reply to kurt vonnegut • 7:51a, 9/1/21
AG
kurt vonnegut said:

My 2 cents -
To reject the pronouns as a lie, seems to me, to be a rejection that some people are transgender. And if that is the case, then I can understand seeing the pronouns as a lie. However, I would offer the following thought - I know what its like to be me and no one else. M1Buckeye knows what its like to be M1Buckeye and no one else. We all share common experiences, but it seems that it should be quite clear to anyone who has ever known someone else deeply, that many of our experiences are not the same. That is to say that we experience the world uniquely. We can listen to other people and learn something about who they are, how they think, and how they experience the world, but never fully know what its like to be them. Now, if I tell you that I believe I am an immortal half man - half alien from the planet Glorp and that this is how I experience the world. . . . well, I may just be nuts. But when millions of people share a common experience of feeling as though their biological sex and gender association are different, then it seems to ignore this is to, at least in part, to reject the idea that other people have experiences that are not the same as yours. If there was no issue with acknowledging that transgender people exist, I can't see an issue with using a pronoun that relates to a gender identity. I can call a trans woman 'she' and still understand that she was born with a *****. I don't see the dissonance in doing so.

edit - weird that the bleeped out a part of the anatomy. . . . I trust you all can figure out what I typed though.
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bmks270
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8:00a, 9/1/21
AG
Truth vs delusion.

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M1Buckeye
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In reply to dermdoc • 8:09a, 9/1/21
dermdoc said:
M1Buckeye said:
dermdoc said:
M1Buckeye said:
dermdoc said:
M1Buckeye said:
Should Christians adhere to this commandment or should Christians go with the flow in order to please the world?

I've noticed in this forum a number of Christians that, apparently, don't believe the bible.

Romans 12:2

English Standard Version

2 Do not be conformed to this world,[a] but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.[b]
I bet you and I interpret that a lot differently.

From my understanding, that meant do not conform to worldly thinking like greed, hatred, etc. To love your enemies. And to do stuff like I posted above which obviously brings no benefit to us in a worldly sense.

But whatever.

And I am not trying to be passive aggressive. It just really baffles me the concern of Christians with this topic.

Do you even know any transgender folks?

And if not, what is the purpose of this thread?

This is the religion forum. As a Christian, I am discussing the topic from a Christian perspective. You can participate by sharing biblical truths that advance our understanding of this topic. Everything else is immaterial.


Cool. Please cite Jesus saying anything about transgender folks.

Thanks.
I made my case in the OP. Thus far you've ignored all of it.

I initially appreciated your perspective on a number of topics, but now I am learning that your perspective is not rooted in Christianity but rather, the ways of the world.



Just like clockwork. As long as I agree with you, I am a "good" Christian. If I don't, I am "of the world".

Might want to look in a mirror sir.

God bless.

That's not fair nor accurate. I never said nor implied any such thing. You are not charitable and are not even attempting to make a biblical argument. It seems that you don't want the topic to even be discussed.
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PacifistAg
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In reply to M1Buckeye • 8:16a, 9/1/21
AG
And this is charitable when all he did was disagree with you? If say derm is being very accurate.
Quote:
but now I am learning that your perspective is not rooted in Christianity but rather, the ways of the world.

And did you listen to the podcast from the pastor and theologian Ishared? It covered this very subject? But can you really claim to want to discuss it when you put the only trans person here on ignore?
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