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You stated no one believes this, and it's simply not true, its a sentiment commonly espoused

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So let's follow this argument to it's conclusion. Where are you going with this, because it smells like a might makes right sort of nonsense.

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We are clear that no one can watch that video and come out with a better understanding of what's going on and what has transpired in the past right? That its forcefully biased and incomplete? If you want to discuss any of the oslo negotiations I'm happy to do so. But let's stop with the moronic video. I'll spare you posting some video stating (truthfully) that the PLO recognized Israel's right to exist and accepted UN resolutions 242 and 338 and acting like there is nothing but the other side's unwillingness for peace. If you want to go into detail and learn why those negotiations fell apart in various ways at various times you are going to find a lot of fingers to point at Israel. Much more than poor mister Prager understands.

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Some have, others, including yasar arafat have literally stated Israel has a right to exist.

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again, we can talk about the ways in which two-state solution proposals have broken down. But again, you will not find them one sided at all. Some reading on the subject and fewer prager videos will do you some good.

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In more ways than you seem to understand yes they share responsibility for that.

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See how this can be flipped around to make boorish attempts at logic. It's what you are doing.

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Have a look at oslo

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FIFY. How is that any less true?

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Clinton said, somewhat surprisingly, that he never expected to close the deal at Camp David. But he made it clear that the breakdown of the peace process and the nine months of deadly intifada since then were very much on his mind. He described Arafat as an aging leader who relishes his own sense of victimhood and seems incapable of making a final peace deal. "He could only get to step five, and he needed to get to step 10," the former president said. But Clinton expressed hope in the younger generation of Palestinian officials, suggesting that a post-Arafat Palestinian leader might be able to make peace, perhaps in as little as several years. "I'm just sorry I blew this Middle East" thing, Clinton said shortly before leaving. "But I don't know what else I could have done."

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Do you think the only thing standing in the way of peace on Israel's side is Bibi?

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If fits reasonably well with the poster I responded to, and frankly your views don't seem far from here as well. You allow for tiny bits of nuance but doesn't appear much more.

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For "a national home for the Jewish people" is not equivalent to making Palestine into a Jewish State; nor can the erection of such a Jewish State be accomplished without the gravest trespass upon the "civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine." The fact came out repeatedly in the Commission's conference with Jewish representatives, that the Zionists looked forward to a practically complete dispossession of the present non-Jewish inhabitants of Palestine, by various forms of purchase.

In his address of July 4, 1918, President Wilson laid down the following principle as one of the four great "ends for which the associated peoples of the world were fighting"; "The settlement of every question, whether of territory, of sovereignty, of economic arrangement, or of political relationship upon the basis of the free acceptance of that settlement by the people immediately concerned and not upon the basis of the material interest or advantage of any other nation or people which may desire a different settlement for the sake of its own exterior influence or mastery." If that principle is to rule, and so the wishes of Palestine's population are to be decisive as to what is to be done with Palestine, then it is to be remembered that the non-Jewish population of Palestine-nearly nine tenths of the whole-are emphatically against the entire Zionist program. The tables show that there was no one thing upon which the population of Palestine were more agreed than upon this. To subject a people so minded to unlimited Jewish immigration, and to steady financial and social pressure to surrender the land, would be a gross violation of the principle just quoted, and of the people's rights, though it kept within the forms of law

It is to be noted also that the feeling against the Zionist program is not confined to Palestine, but shared very generally by the people throughout Syria as our conferences clearly showed. More than 72 per cent-1,350 in all-of all the petitions in the whole of Syria were directed against the Zionist program. Only two requests-those for a united Syria and for independence-had a larger support This genera] feeling was only voiced by the "General Syrian Congress," in the seventh, eighth and tenth resolutions of the statement. (Already quoted in the report.)

The Peace Conference should not shut its eyes to the fact that the anti-Zionist feeling in Palestine and Syria is intense and not lightly to be flouted. No British officer, consulted by the Commissioners, believed that the Zionist program could be carried out except by force of arms. The officers generally thought that a force of not less than 50,000 soldiers would be required even to initiate the program. That of itself is evidence of a strong sense of the injustice of the Zionist program, on the part of the non-Jewish populations of Palestine and Syria. Decisions, requiring armies to carry out, are sometimes necessary, but they are surely not gratuitously to be taken in the interests of a serious injustice. For the initial claim, often submitted by Zionist representatives, that they have a "right" to Palestine, based on an occupation of 2,000 years ago, can hardly be seriously considered.

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From the very beginning the Extremists among the Zionists both in their writings and speeches adopted one interpretation only of the Balfour Declaration. There was no question of moderate colonisation or a National Home, but a declaration of Palestine as a Jewish State, "as Jewish as England is English" (Mr. Joseph Cohen in a letter to The Times of September 19th, 1919). The loose language of the politicians was seized upon and elaborated into a naked demand for the expulsion of the Arabs. Mr. Eperlin wrote a pamphlet entitled "An open book by one Zionist to the Arabs" telling the Arabs they must leave Palestine and emigrate to the Hedjaz. It is true that the more sober minded among the Zionists assisted in the suppression of the pamphlet, but the mischief was done. Mr. Israel Zangwill added his literary gifts to fan the flame. Mr. Leon Simon wrote an article in the Zionist Review which, in spite of the apparent moderation of its conclusion was hardly calculated to pacify a panic stricken people. He begins by a reference to the Arab population: "There will be", he says, "a state of Palestine containing a number of Arab inhabitants, etc." One might almost imagine he was referring to a handful of gipsy nomads such as infest the waste lands of Alexandria rather than to the great majority of the population of a country. Later he goes on to state: "There are in theory at least three possible policies, any one of which the Zionists might advocate now and might strive to get carried out whenever their influence in the state of Palestine becomes strong enough. These are (1) to remove the Arabs from the country by force if they would not go of their own free will; (2) to leave the Arabs in the country, but to put them in a position inferior to that of the Jews; and (3) to leave the Arabs in the country and invite them to take as much share as they are or may become capable of taking in its [p22] development, making no distinction between Jew and Arab from the point of view of political or economic rights."

It is hardly important that Mr. Simon ultimately accepted the third alternative. The effect of the mere statement of these monstrous propositions on a proud people who consider themselves rightly masters of the soil may be easier imagined than described. The mere fact that Mr. Simon was driven to write such an article in reprobation of the excesses of his fellow Zionists may well pardon the wildest fears of the existing population.
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To the native, they [the zionists] seem to have adopted an attitude at first contemptuous and peremptory, and later, when they became aware of the growing feeling aroused by their attitude, a resentment not unmingled with fear.

Cet animal est tres mechant Si en l'attaque il se defend. (Roughly if the animal is attacked he will defend himself)

Towards the Administration they adopted the attitude of "We want the Jewish State and we won't wait", and they did not hesitate to avail themselves of every means open to them in this country and abroad to force; the hand of an Administration bound to respect the "Status Quo" and to commit it, and thereby future Administrations, to a policy not contemplated in the Balfour Declaration.. It is not to be wondered at that the Arab population complained of bias on the part of the Administration in favour of the Jews. They see the Administration repeatedly overruled by the Zionist Commission; they see the Zionist Commission intermeddling in every department of Government, in Justice, Public Health, Legislation, Public Works, and forcing the Administration as in the case of the Wilhelma Concession to interfere in their favour, in a purely business transaction. They see Jews excluded from the operations of the Public Custodian with regard to enemy property: they have seen the introduction of the Hebrew language on an equality with Arabic and English: they have seen considerable immigration not effectively controlled: they see Zionist stamps on letters and Zionist young men drilling publicly in the open spaces of the town. Finally they have seen them proceeding to the election of a Constituent Assembly. What more natural than that they should fail to realise the immense difficulties the Administration was and is labouring under and come to the conclusion that the openly published demands of the Jews were to be granted and the guarantees in the Declaration were to become but a dead letter?
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We have then arrived at a condition of affairs where the native population, disappointed of their hopes, panic-stricken as to their future, exasperated beyond endurance by the aggressive attitude of the Zionists, and despairing of redress at the hands of an Administration which seems to them powerless before the Zionist organisation, lies a ready prey for any form of agitation hostile to the British Government and the Jews. Such agitation was not and is not wanting.

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craigernaught said:

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The Palestinian people have the power to fix their problem

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What power is that?

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craigernaught said:

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The Palestinian people have the power to fix their problem

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What power is that?

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Zobel said:

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Their "Ireland" is currently being lived in by other people. I feel like this a fairly important point.

Also, seriously - navel gazing? This dismissive attitude promotes aggressive, arrogant ignorance. How we got here is only irrelevant if you approve of the idea that pragmatism is the only deciding factor. In that case, of course, you have no grounds for decrying terrorism or any other kind of war fighting in the name of "civilized" political entities. It's hypocrisy of the highest order.

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craigernaught said:

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Terrorism is a non starter for just about every civilized, political entity outside of that region.

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I liked this sentence. Which civilized political entity in the region approves of terrorism? Bizarre.

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HarleySpoon said:

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craigernaught said:

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The Palestinian people have the power to fix their problem

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What power is that?

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See my post.

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craigernaught said:

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Terrorism is a non starter for just about every civilized, political entity outside of that region.

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I liked this sentence. Which civilized political entity in the region approves of terrorism? Bizarre.

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craigernaught said:

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HarleySpoon said:

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craigernaught said:

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The Palestinian people have the power to fix their problem

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What power is that?

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See my post.

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I'm confused. Explain it to me. I must be missing something.

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Yes, it's about the only region where a significant portion of political entities approve of terrorism.

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one MEEN Ag said:

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I think you're confusing terrorism with guerilla warfare.

A terrorist harms strikes civilian populations in the name of an ideology.

A guerilla soldier strikes an unsuspecting military targets without visually identifying themselves.

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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one MEEN Ag said:

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I think you're confusing terrorism with guerilla warfare.

A terrorist harms strikes civilian populations in the name of an ideology.

A guerilla soldier strikes an unsuspecting military targets without visually identifying themselves.

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Again, that's still a matter of perspective. Israel has one of the highest percentage of gun ownership and mandatory military service. So from one perspective Israel has very few "civilians ". Not my perspective, but a perspective

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Agthatbuilds said:

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Kill the children because they will one day be soldiers? I dont see how that is an argument.

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