Serious question

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Zobel
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AG
Patriot101 said:

We are going to try to go one step at a time?

"...but not all sins are transgression."

Just so I can understand where you are coming from, please give me an example of a sin that is not a transgression of God's law?


"where there is no law, there is no transgression."
"Just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned. For sin was in the world before the law was given; but sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who did not sin in the way that Adam transgressed."

Very clear.
Patriot101
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In what sense was there ever no law? When did God's moral law ever lower? When was God's law never written on the hearts of men?


"First, let me admit that there are scholars who understand the law written on the heart in Romans 2:15 and the law written on the heart in these new covenant passages like Hebrews 10:14 as referring to the same experience of transformation by the Holy Spirit in the heart of the Christian. That view is more common today. Very few took that view historically. It is not my view. So, let me read those texts, say what my view is, try to explain what the implications are, and hopefully be of some help...

Let's start with Romans 2:14: "For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature" and I emphasize that phrase because it ties this passage in to Romans 1 where Paul was not dealing with redeemed people and what they do by virtue of the Holy Spirit in their heart, but things that they do by virtue of being created in a human nature or a male and female nature.

So, let's start over: "For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law" meaning the law of Moses. "They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them" (Romans 2:15).

"Every human being in the world has an inborn knowledge of God and his law." Tweet Share on Facebook
So, the picture here, I think, is not of a born again, redeemed people who are enabled to walk in a way pleasing to the Lord by the Holy Spirit, but of the Gentile world in general who have enough knowledge of the moral law of God in their hearts by virtue of being created in God's image so that their consciences are conflicted: sometimes approving, sometimes disapproving.

The other passage is Hebrews 10:1617. He is quoting the new covenant promise in Jeremiah 31: "'This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,' then he adds, 'I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.'" Now, the point here is that Christ has purchased the new covenant promise, and it includes the forgiveness of our sins and the replacement of an old, unbelieving, rebellious heart with a new heart of faith and obedience. So, I think these two passages Romans 2, Hebrews 10, and the other new covenant passages like 2 Corinthians 3 and Hebrews 8 are teaching two very different things and addressing two very different situations.

Hebrews is teaching that, when we are born again, God gives us a new heart and a new spirit, and the result is that the law of God written in Scripture is no longer offensive to us. We are no longer hostile to it like Paul says in Romans 8:7. We are not hostile to the word of God, but rather, we are submissive. We delight to do God's commandments. It doesn't mean that we know them all by heart, because they are written on our hearts. It doesn't mean that. It means that, when we read them in the word, the inclination to do them is in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. This is a great work of the Holy Spirit, purchased by the blood of Christ called the new covenant. That is what I think is going on in Hebrews 10 and it is an awesome privilege for Christians.

In Romans 2, what Paul is doing is very different. Let's get the train of thought from verse 11 down to where we are jumping in at verse 15. Let's get that in front of us. First he says and this is the main thesis of the paragraph there is "no partiality" with God. And then he defends that in verse 12 by saying that God's judgment will fall according to how we respond to the measure of truth that we have access to. That is why he is not partial. Then he explains this in verse 13, that hearing the law of God is no advantage to the Jew. In other words, merely having it and hearing it is no advantage to the Jew at the judgment day, and not hearing it is no disadvantage to the Gentile, because doing, not hearing, is the issue. And then he explains in verses 14 and 15 that the law really is available to those who have no copy of the Mosaic law, because God has put it in the hearts and given all of us a conscience to awaken us to this moral knowledge in our hearts.

What he means is not that every Gentile unbeliever in the world knows all six hundred commands in the first five books of the Bible. What he means is that all human beings have sufficient knowledge of what is right and wrong written on their hearts, so that their consciences can accuse them or affirm them. And at the judgment day they will not be held accountable for what they have no knowledge of, no access to. But they have access to many things about right and wrong. I think we are on the right track here in Romans 2:15, because if you look back into chapter 1 he has been teaching this very thing already. He says in Romans 1:32 that they know the ordinance of God "that those who practice such things" are worthy of death. That is exactly what he just said in 2:15. They know the ordinance of God.

"None of us lives up to the demands of his own conscience, let alone the demands that God has given." Tweet Share on Facebook
And in Romans 1:26 he says that women exchange their natural function for that which is against nature. They know it is against nature, and that is the phrase he uses in Romans 2:1415. And Romans 1:21, "They knew God." And the point of it all is to stress that every human being is guilty before God because every one of us, all human beings, "suppress the truth" (Romans 1:18), and none of us lives up to the demands of his own conscience, let alone the demands that God has given and that we know in our hearts.

So, here are the two great lessons for us that made me glad this question was asked in the first place. Real obedience, even though imperfect, real obedience to God, even though imperfect, is made possible through the work of Christ for all who believe in him. God does the decisive work of taking out the heart of rebellion and putting in the heart that loves the commandments of God: that is the glorious truth of having the law written on our hearts according to the new covenant in Hebrews 10.

Here's the second great truth: every human being in the world, every child in your family, every person that you work with, everybody in your neighborhood has an inborn knowledge of God, according to Romans 1:21, and an inborn knowledge of the moral law of God (Romans 1:32; 2:15). This means, among other things the implications are many that when we are speaking to people about the Christian faith and about why we live the way we live and what God expects of this culture and this society, we are not starting from scratch with those people. There are profound things already in their hearts that God may make use of to help them see what we are saying."

https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/how-is-the-law-written-on-every-heart

Patriot101
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dermdoc said:

No we do not speak a different language which is another deflection. We just disagree and I think Calvinism is not correct theology.

And that is what this is all about. All the walls of Scripture, all the pontifications, it is all about Calvinism and if you do not agree you do not understand Scripture the way I do.

That is why Orthodoxy is so attractive. Scripture can be dangerous when left to individual interpretation.

IMHO, you have gone from sola scriptura to sola interpretation.
And I know you disagree.

Promise I am done now.


We have 5 forms of unity among the Reformed.
I personally am a member of a church holding to the Westminster standards. I'm not apart of an island church. I'm not alone in my interpretation. That's why the reformed faith is attractive to me.

The laity are not required to have but a basic adherence to the creeds. But the clergy and church officers have to adhere to the WCF.
dermdoc
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Are you a pastor?
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Patriot101
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dermdoc said:

Are you a pastor?


Nope. So why do I hold to the Westminster standards? I believe it is the greatest summary written by the hands of men.
dermdoc
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Even though I disagree with your theology, I think you would make a great Presbyterian pastor.
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Patriot101
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dermdoc said:

Even though I disagree with your theology, I think you would make a great Presbyterian pastor.


I'm in a Presbyterian church. Thanks. Sometimes it helps to not be a pastor because they all have to worry about the men paying for the light bill.
Patriot101
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Or view is that of a God who issues a love that doesn't allow people to go to hell. The other view is that God loves you based upon a condition.
dermdoc
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Patriot101 said:

Or view is that of a God who issues a love that doesn't allow people to go to hell. The other view is that God loves you based upon a condition.
You are not understanding my viewpoint as that is not what I think at all.

Whatever. And might you be an engineer?

God bless you!
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Zobel
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If I wanted to have a conversation with whoever wrote all that, I'd talk to them.

Walls of copy paste don't make a discussion.
Zobel
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At any rate, there was no knowledge of the Law before the Law was given. There was one law, in a sense, in the garden; therefore as St Paul says there was the transgression.

I'm not excusing sin, all sin is death and separates us from God, who is life. And, as we are both physical and spiritual beings, all sin is spiritual death as well.

But sins in ignorance aren't transgression. You can go to great lengths to try to figure out who is ignorant and who is not of what. To some extent no one is ignorant, like St Paul opens with. To some extent even the Jews, with their knowledge of the Law, were ignorant (and he frequently lumps himself in with these accusations - HE was ignorant).

At any rate the point remains. When St Paul speaks of sin as a concept, it is a different thing than when he says sins or the sins of an individual. All are born under sin and all sinned are two different things. And when he speaks of transgressions with knowledge there is a difference between sins of ignorance. The gospels are clear that to whom much has been given much will be required. There is always a different between the obligations of a person who has a lot - knowledge, power, resources, whatever - and who has little.
diehard03
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Quote:

Walls of copy paste don't make a discussion.

You know, Zobel, there was a time when someone else did this as well...

Merry Christmas!
Zobel
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I'm not sure I understand what you mean, but I suppose you're saying I do that? I don't recall ever answering anyone with a copy paste from someone else's article, right down to the "tweet share on Facebook".
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diehard03
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I'm not sure I understand what you mean, but I suppose you're saying I do that? I don't recall ever answering anyone with a copy paste from someone else's article, right down to the "tweet share on Facebook".

I'm just having post Christmas fun. Even you know there was a time when a lot of your posts were quotes from early church fathers. It was good to see, as many of us don't encounter them too often...but sometimes it was definitely just copy and paste.
dermdoc
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We all have our foibles. Me especially.

I will say that Patriot is refreshingly candid in his support of dp which most of my Calvinist friends avoid like the plague.

And he and zobel are so knowledgeable that I always learn something.
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Zobel
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I think there's a significant difference between researching patristic quotes on a topic and pasting an article.
dermdoc
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Zobel said:

I think there's a significant difference between researching patristic quotes on a topic and pasting an article.
I am bothered more about the wall of cut and paste Scripture.

It is like patriot does not seem to realize we have actually read all those verses. Numerous times. And come to different conclusions.
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diehard03
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Quote:

I think there's a significant difference between researching patristic quotes on a topic and pasting an article.

Yes and no. I've abandoned many a thread where we run into the "authority" argument - St Whoever said this, so who are you to question it. The quotes usually weren't their defense of the thought, just their input on the subject.

It doesn't really facilitate discussion either. And, to be clear, this hasn't happened in recent memory, so nothing to really fix.

Patriot is learning and he will have to make adjustments if he wants conversation to develop. Your (and derm) critiques are spot on.
dermdoc
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And my biggest beef is saying I can not understand him because he is talking in a different language. Complete lack of respect.

And then projects onto me what he thinks my beliefs are regarding salvation issues.

That takes some big cajones. Or a complete lack of self awareness.

Done again.
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Patriot101
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Ok. I'll try to do better. But there is the problem of language as Ludwig Wittgenstein would say. In that sense is what I meant.

Plus, I'm not going to stop copying and pasting when needed. I'm not very smart.

The other thing is that i type all of this on a cellphone. I can't afford a laptop.
dermdoc
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You are plenty smart.

Look, you are pretty new here.

We have discussed ad nauseum just about every theology known to man. Calvinism and pro and anti Calvinist Scriptures and writings have been hashed and re hashed.

And of course, you do not know that but that is why the cut and paste wall of Scriptures and articles kind of get annoying and imply we have not read it before.

I want to know what you believe. That to me, is when we can have a real discussion. Have some confidence.

And we are brothers in Christ and there are some great folks on here. Different opinions, sure. But great folks.

Love you and God bless.
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Patriot101
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I love redundant passages of scriptures copied and pasted. It's good to read through those passages again and again.

Secondly, it is important because freewill is read into it when the the gospel is moralism. Every religion in the world holds to freewill apart from the empowerment of the Holy Spirit.

Every religion in the world has a ladder that one must climb, so to speak, to get to the Divine. Christianity doesn't.

And if there is a ladder like Jacob saw, then the angel will wrestle us and win to make us walk with a limp...

And we know that without Jacob being loved with an everlasting love (unconditional), then there is no way that swindler makes it.
dermdoc
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Patriot101 said:

I love redundant passages of scriptures copied and pasted. It's good to read through those passages again and again.

Secondly, it is important because freewill is read into it when the the gospel is moralism. Every religion in the world holds to freewill apart from the empowerment of the Holy Spirit.

Every religion in the world has a ladder that one must climb, so to speak, to get to the Divine. Christianity doesn't.

And if there is a ladder like Jacob saw, then the angel will wrestle us and win to make us walk with a limp...

And we know that without Jacob being loved with an everlasting love (unconditional), then there is no way that swindler makes it.
I do not know who is telling you that non Calvinists do not believe in grace alone for justification but every Orthodox, Catholic, Baptist, etc. poster on here would agree with you. And I have been guilty of projecting false beliefs on Calvinists so we all err.

And who taught you this theory of Scripture on the same level as the Trinity?


I have never heard that and sounds like something a pastor you had or have came up with.
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Patriot101
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I am not equating the scriptures with the Trinity. I'm saying there isn't a disconnection. They aren't separate. The scriptures reveal the divine attributes of God or they don't.
We don't worship the scriptures. We worship the God of the scriptures. And like a lion, they jump out and grab us into the pages at times in the Spirit. That Spirit is the spirit of truth.

Funny how the sacrament of communion can be the body and blood but the scriptures can't?
dermdoc
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Patriot101 said:

I am not equating the scriptures with the Trinity. I'm saying there isn't a disconnection. They aren't separate. The scriptures reveal the divine attributes of God or they don't.
We don't worship the scriptures. We worship the God of the scriptures. And like a lion, they jump out and grab us into the pages at times in the Spirit. That Spirit is the spirit of truth.

Funny how the sacrament of communion can be the body and blood but the scriptures can't?
Actually it makes a lot of sense.

Communion is a sacrament, the Scriptures are not.

To my knowledge Jesus never said the Scriptures were His body and blood.

I have never heard that theology taught anywhere. Or printed anywhere.
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Patriot101
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"According to Calvin, Word and Spirit must always go together. Scripture gives us a saving knowledge of God, but only when its certainty is "founded on the inward persuasion of the Holy Spirit." It is "foolish to attempt to prove to infidels that the Scripture is the Word of God," since this can only be known by faith."

I'm not at home. But it can be found in Calvin's "Institutes."
Patriot101
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Jesus is the word incarnate, right? John 1:1-3.

dermdoc
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Patriot101 said:

"According to Calvin, Word and Spirit must always go together. Scripture gives us a saving knowledge of God, but only when its certainty is "founded on the inward persuasion of the Holy Spirit." It is "foolish to attempt to prove to infidels that the Scripture is the Word of God," since this can only be known by faith."

I'm not at home. But it can be found in Calvin's "Institutes."
Nobody is disagreeing with that. But Scripture is not a Sacramemt.
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Patriot101
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dermdoc said:

Patriot101 said:

"According to Calvin, Word and Spirit must always go together. Scripture gives us a saving knowledge of God, but only when its certainty is "founded on the inward persuasion of the Holy Spirit." It is "foolish to attempt to prove to infidels that the Scripture is the Word of God," since this can only be known by faith."

I'm not at home. But it can be found in Calvin's "Institutes."
Nobody is disagreeing with that. But Scripture is not a Sacramemt.


I see the word and sacrament as equal.
Did I say the scriptures were? Oops.
For without the scriptures, there is no sacrament.
dermdoc
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Patriot101 said:

dermdoc said:

Patriot101 said:

"According to Calvin, Word and Spirit must always go together. Scripture gives us a saving knowledge of God, but only when its certainty is "founded on the inward persuasion of the Holy Spirit." It is "foolish to attempt to prove to infidels that the Scripture is the Word of God," since this can only be known by faith."

I'm not at home. But it can be found in Calvin's "Institutes."
Nobody is disagreeing with that. But Scripture is not a Sacramemt.


I see the word and sacrament as equal.
Did I say the scriptures were? Oops.
For without the scriptures, there is no sacrament.
No without Christ there would be no Sacraments.

What did the Early church do? There were no Bibles.
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Patriot101
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dermdoc said:

Patriot101 said:

dermdoc said:

Patriot101 said:

"According to Calvin, Word and Spirit must always go together. Scripture gives us a saving knowledge of God, but only when its certainty is "founded on the inward persuasion of the Holy Spirit." It is "foolish to attempt to prove to infidels that the Scripture is the Word of God," since this can only be known by faith."

I'm not at home. But it can be found in Calvin's "Institutes."
Nobody is disagreeing with that. But Scripture is not a Sacramemt.


I see the word and sacrament as equal.
Did I say the scriptures were? Oops.
For without the scriptures, there is no sacrament.
No without Christ there would be no Sacraments.

What did the Early church do? There were no Bibles.


And I don't disagree that without Christ there is no sacrament. All of this I believe.
They had the Torah. They may of had a gospel. They may of had an epistle. They passed them around.
dermdoc
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AG
Patriot101 said:

dermdoc said:

Patriot101 said:

"According to Calvin, Word and Spirit must always go together. Scripture gives us a saving knowledge of God, but only when its certainty is "founded on the inward persuasion of the Holy Spirit." It is "foolish to attempt to prove to infidels that the Scripture is the Word of God," since this can only be known by faith."

I'm not at home. But it can be found in Calvin's "Institutes."
Nobody is disagreeing with that. But Scripture is not a Sacramemt.


I see the word and sacrament as equal.
Did I say the scriptures were? Oops.
For without the scriptures, there is no sacrament.
Just curious, is this a theology you came up on your own?
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Patriot101
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The Trinity revealed in Matthew 28:18 is the high point of revelation (Sinclair Ferguson and others).
dermdoc
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AG
Agree.

And I am not trying to grill you, sorry. Feel free to ask me anything.

Calling it a night.

God bless.
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