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If Calvin is right, then Jesus was a masochist.

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You know, yall seem to get all bent out of shape when we meme on Catholic stuff...but have no problems dishing it out...

The point is if Calvin is right, then you have no authority to call Him anything but Lord.

diehard03 said:

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If Calvin is right, then Jesus was a masochist.

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You know, yall seem to get all bent out of shape when we meme on Catholic stuff...but have no problems dishing it out...

The point is if Calvin is right, then you have no authority to call Him anything but Lord.

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Fair enough. I was just taking Calvin to his logical conclusion.

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Fair enough. I was just taking Calvin to his logical conclusion.

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Sure, if believe you have the authority to define him as a masochist and this definition is something God must subject Himself to. That's something I dare not do.

Most opposing "logical conclusions" end up being a God who isn't God.

diehard03 said:

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Fair enough. I was just taking Calvin to his logical conclusion.

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Sure, if believe you have the authority to define him as a masochist and this definition is something God must subject Himself to. That's something I dare not do.

Most opposing "logical conclusions" end up being a God who isn't God.

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I have no more or less authority than anyone to deduce that if God predetermined the eternal fate of everyone he created and then also decided to go through the Passion to save those he already predetermined would go to heaven then he meets the definition of a masochist.

Thank God Calvin was/is wrong. .

Augustine, who basically wrote the blueprint of Calvinism, believed in torturing people to make them convert.

Calvin, of course, was at the least complicit in burning theological rivals at the stake.

Neither seems Christlike to me.

The Catholics were going to execute Servatus if the elders at Geneva didn't. He was asked to leave and it was a theonomy. There wasn't a separation of church and state. We made adjustments later. Calvin also urged for him to be hung and not burned. But that's how it went back then. They took things like denying the Trinity seriously. It was central.

Now a foundation for any future metaphysics of morals doesn't matter and we've landed on the other side of the pendulum. Even Kant in the next century after Calvin couldn't save you. Kant's work of reason alone stirred up the French to use the guillotine to slaughter thousands. And you're crying about one situation of a guy warned numerous times in a theocratic government of no separation of church and state.

What about Augustine?

It all comes down to the character of God.

And to me, that character is revealed in Christ. I personally can not see anyone who is following Christ torturing people for any reason.

dermdoc said:

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What about Augustine?

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We evolved since then. But the Spanish Catholics didn't during the inquisition that would basically follow them into the new world doing similar things or worse to South American natives rejecting the cross.
And remember that the Moors were ruling over the Spanish for nearly 800 years before the Inquisition and the exploration of the new world. The Muslim Moors rubbed off on them. They certainly reinforced cruelness.

Why are we isolating Augustine (4th-5th century) vs. a whole host of events into the 17th century?

I hope you read history within its context.

dermdoc said:

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It all comes down to the character of God.

And to me, that character is revealed in Christ. I personally can not see anyone who is following Christ torturing people for any reason.

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And Christ isn't separate from the scriptures. The scriptures aren't separate from the Holy Spirt. And the Holy Spirit isn't separate from the Son. And Holy Spirit isn't separate from the Father, nor is the Son, etc.

Patriot101 said:

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dermdoc said:

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What about Augustine?

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We evolved since then. But the Spanish Catholics didn't during the inquisition that would basically follow them into the new world doing similar things or worse to South American natives rejecting the cross.
And remember that the Moors were ruling over the Spanish for nearly 800 years before the Inquisition and the exploration of the new world. The Muslim Moors rubbed off on them. They certainly reinforced cruelness.

Why are we isolating Augustine (4th-5th century) verses a whole host of events into the 17th century?

I hope you read history within its context.

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Agree completely. And that is how I read much of the Old Testament. But still, you have to figure Augustine was regenerate, correct? So should he have not known what was Christlike?

And I isolated Augustine because you cite him so often.

Patriot101 said:

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dermdoc said:

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It all comes down to the character of God.

And to me, that character is revealed in Christ. I personally can not see anyone who is following Christ torturing people for any reason.

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And Christ isn't separate from the scriptures. The scriptures aren't separate from the Holy Spirt. And the Holy Spirit isn't separate from the Son. And Holy Spirit isn't separate from the Father, nor is the Son, etc.

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So you are putting Scripture on the same level as the Trinity?

And how did the early church spread so rapidly and quickly with so few Scriptural sources?

dermdoc said:

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Patriot101 said:

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dermdoc said:

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It all comes down to the character of God.

And to me, that character is revealed in Christ. I personally can not see anyone who is following Christ torturing people for any reason.

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And Christ isn't separate from the scriptures. The scriptures aren't separate from the Holy Spirt. And the Holy Spirit isn't separate from the Son. And Holy Spirit isn't separate from the Father, nor is the Son, etc.

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So you are putting Scripture on the same level as the Trinity?

And how did the early church spread so rapidly and quickly with so few Scriptural sources?

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Because we are ultimately saved by the Spirit who supplies enough knowledge for us to be saved...

The Lord's Table is the gospel tasted, touched, seen, smelled, and heard, as we chew and swallow.

It's that simple. But it is a simple and complex ordeal as we learn the family secrets.

And the semi-Augustinian orders quote from Augustine all the time as well.

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I have no more or less authority than anyone to deduce that if God predetermined the eternal fate of everyone he created and then also decided to go through the Passion to save those he already predetermined would go to heaven then he meets the definition of a masochist.

Thank God Calvin was/is wrong. .

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You have no authority to question how God decides to carry out his predetermined plan.

God is not bound by your definitions. It's irrelevant to Him if you think He's masochistic or not.

As I've stated, the alternative is a God who isn't God.

One view transcends reason and makes us bow our earthly finite minds. The other view attempts to comprehend the infinite mysterious ways of God and make God's miracles of salvation logical.

Isn't it ironic? The reformed are viewed as too heady. When you first try this reality out, so to speak, you begin to see that the reformed aren't the rationalists at all. All rationalism does is lead to irrationalism.

The reformed have a more realistic view of the ability of the mind, as I pray to the God of my understanding...

The Puritans are either viewed as legalists or antinomian. It's a funny thing.

All we learn is their offspring in the new world on Thanksgiving day. Then we learn about some isolated separatist group in Salem that was corrected by everyone who was anyone in the churches.

diehard03 said:

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I have no more or less authority than anyone to deduce that if God predetermined the eternal fate of everyone he created and then also decided to go through the Passion to save those he already predetermined would go to heaven then he meets the definition of a masochist.

Thank God Calvin was/is wrong. .

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You have no authority to question how God decides to carry out his predetermined plan.

God is not bound by your definitions. It's irrelevant to Him if you think He's masochistic or not.

As I've stated, the alternative is a God who isn't God.

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Agree completely. And since I am not a Calvinist I do not think God is a masochist. And God can still be God in my theology also. Completely sovereign and completely loving.

It's an either/or for you, which is actually a false binary view that was previously projected onto me.

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Agree completely. And since I am not a Calvinist I do not think God is a masochist. And God can still be God in my theology also. Completely sovereign and completely loving.

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Sure, we always accept some level of "I don't know exactly how it works, but I have all the confidence that the God who saved my soul has it under control".

Logically, I can't totally follow you...but again, God's got it.

For those who are his, God will send an army to save them. God will put you in a pigsty and make you eat with the pigs that we are in sin. You'll get so sick of sin that you'll be grateful to be a Prodigal Son.

God will send a whale like Jonah if you don't spread his word faithfully. A sign of our obedience to God is to do so. When we get off track, God will do whatever it takes. Soli deo Gloria.

It is better to not even test God, lest we find out that we were merely among the cooperate elect and not one of the chosen.
"Many are called. But few are chosen."

dermdoc said:

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It all comes down to the character of God.

And to me, that character is revealed in Christ. I personally can not see anyone who is following Christ torturing people for any reason.

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Great confirmation...

diehard03 said:

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Agree completely. And since I am not a Calvinist I do not think God is a masochist. And God can still be God in my theology also. Completely sovereign and completely loving.

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Sure, we always accept some level of "I don't know exactly how it works, but I have all the confidence that the God who saved my soul has it under control".

Logically, I can't totally follow you...but again, God's got it.

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Agree. And I have trouble logically following you or any Calvinist for that matter.

But that is okay because as you said, God has got this.

We are all brothers/sisters in Christ.

No need to be playing that game.

Patriot101 said:

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For those who are his, God will send an army to save them. God will put you in a pigsty and make you eat with the pigs that we are in sin. You'll get so sick of sin that you'll be grateful to be a Prodigal Son.

God will send a whale like Jonah if you don't spread his word faithfully. A sign of our obedience to God is to do so. When we get off track, God will do whatever it takes. Soli deo Gloria.

It is better to not even test God, lest we find out that we were merely among the cooperate elect and not one of the chosen.
"Many are called. But few are chosen."

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So in your theology, how do we know whether we are of what you call the "corporate elect" vs the truly elect?

And who is talking about testing God?

Seems like you are trying to make it into even a more exclusive "club".

Well, this thread already did with St. Augustine and Calvin being attacked for being humans following the flow in one area. So there you go.

As GK Chesterton said, "A dead thing goes with the stream, but only a living thing goes against it."

And I agree, Derm. The creeds are what objectively make us Christians or not.

Patriot101 said:

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Well, this thread already did with St. Augustine and Calvin being attacked for being humans following the flow in one area. So there you go.

As GK Chesterton said, "A dead thing goes with the stream, but only a living thing goes against it."

And I agree, Derm. The creeds are what objectively make us Christians or not.

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Agree. We have made it way too difficult and of course allowed man made divisions usually caused from ego to allow Satan to work his stuff.

dermdoc said:

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Patriot101 said:

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For those who are his, God will send an army to save them. God will put you in a pigsty and make you eat with the pigs that we are in sin. You'll get so sick of sin that you'll be grateful to be a Prodigal Son.

God will send a whale like Jonah if you don't spread his word faithfully. A sign of our obedience to God is to do so. When we get off track, God will do whatever it takes. Soli deo Gloria.

It is better to not even test God, lest we find out that we were merely among the cooperate elect and not one of the chosen.
"Many are called. But few are chosen."

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So in your theology, how do we know whether we are of what you call the "corporate elect" vs the truly elect?

And who is talking about testing God?

Seems like you are trying to make it into even a more exclusive "club".

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The elect fear God and have such concerns for God's real warnings.

Chapter XVIII.
Of the Assurance of Grace and Salvation.

I. Although hypocrites and other unregenerate men may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes, and carnal presumptions of being in the favour of God, and estate of salvation; which hope of theirs shall perish: yet such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love Him in sincerity, endeavouring to walk in all good conscience before Him, may, in this life, be certainly assured that they are in the state of grace, and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of God, which hope shall never make them ashamed.

(a) Job 8:13, 14; Mic. 3:11; Deut. 29:19; John 8:41.
(b) Matt. 7:22, 23.
(c) I John 2:3; I John 3:14, 18, 19, 21, 24; I John 5:13.
(d) Rom. 5:2, 5.

II. This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probable persuasion, grounded upon a fallible hope; but an infallible assurance of faith, founded upon the divine truth of the promises of salvation, the inward evidence of those graces unto which these promises are made, the testimony of the Spirit of adoption witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God: which Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance, whereby we are sealed to the day of redemption.

(e) Heb. 6:11, 19.
(f) Heb. 6:17, 18.
(g) II Pet. 1:4, 5, 10, 11; I John 2:3; I John 3:14; II Cor. 1:12.
(h) Rom. 8:15, 16.
(i) Eph. 1:13, 14; Eph. 4:30; II Cor. 1:21, 22.

III. This infallible assurance doth not so belong to the essence of faith, but that a true believer may wait long, and conflict with many difficulties before he be partaker of it: yet, being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may without extraordinary revelation, in the right use of ordinary means, attain thereunto.(l) And therefore it is the duty of everyone to give all diligence to make his calling and election sure; that thereby his heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in the Holy Ghost, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength and cheerfulness in the duties of obedience, the proper fruits of this assurance: so far is it from inclining men to looseness.

(k) I John 5:13; Isa. 50:10; Mark 9:24; Ps. 88 throughout; Ps. 77 to ver. 12.
(l) I Cor. 2:12; I John 4:13; Heb. 6:11, 12; Eph. 3:17, 18, 19.
(m) II Pet. 1:10.
(n) Rom. 5:1, 2, 5; Rom. 14:17; Rom. 15:13; Eph. 1:3, 4; Ps. 4:6, 7; Ps. 119:32.
(o) I John 2:1, 2; Rom. 6:1, 2; Tit. 2:11, 12, 14; II Cor. 7:1; Rom. 8:1, 12; I John 3:2, 3; Ps. 130:4; I John 1:6, 7.

IV. True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as, by negligence in preserving of it, by falling into some special sin, which woundeth the conscience and grieveth the Spirit; by some sudden or vehement temptation, by God's withdrawing the light of His countenance, and suffering even such as fear Him to walk in darkness and to have no light: yet are they never so utterly destitute of that seed of God, and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart, and conscience of duty, out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may, in due time, be revived; and by the which, in the mean time, they are supported from utter despair.

(p) Cant. 5:2, 3, 6; Ps. 51:8, 12, 14; Eph. 4:30, 31; Ps. 77:1 to 10; Matt. 26:69, 70, 71, 72; Ps. 31:22; Ps. 88 throughout; Isa. 50:10.
(q) I John 3:9; Luke 22:32; Job 13:15; Ps. 73:15; Ps. 51:8, 12; Isa. 50:10.
(r) Mic. 7:7, 8, 9; Jer. 32:40; Isa. 54:7, 8, 9, 10; Ps. 22:1; Ps. 88 throughout.

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/westminster-confession-faith/

Btw, how reassuring and comforting is it when you realize that the Creator of the universe looks like Christ crucified? When you see the Lion, and it looks like a Lamb who was slain. It speaks so strongly of the character of the triune God. This has helped me understand so much more of the Scripture that, in the past, seemed contradictory or incompatible with who Christ is.

PacifistAg said:

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Btw, how reassuring and comforting is it when you realize that the Creator of the universe looks like Christ crucified? When you see the Lion, and it looks like a Lamb who was slain. It speaks so strongly of the character of the triune God. This has helped me understand so much more of the Scripture that, in the past, seemed contradictory or incompatible with who Christ is.

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Amen. And why I can not understand how anyone could see Christ crucified and believe in limited atonement.

Christ died for all people.

PacifistAg said:

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Btw, how reassuring and comforting is it when you realize that the Creator of the universe looks like Christ crucified? When you see the Lion, and it looks like a Lamb who was slain. It speaks so strongly of the character of the triune God. This has helped me understand so much more of the Scripture that, in the past, seemed contradictory or incompatible with who Christ is.

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Right. Christ took responsibility for his creation on the cross, even for whatever happens to any of us. Whatever happen happens for a reason...

Yep. We see it on the cross when He that even while we were His enemies, He died for us. I think we see it in the parable of the Prodigal Son, which is my favorite parable. The Father never stops looking at the horizon for His son to return home. He runs to meet him, doesn't demand apologies, but instead forgives and wraps His arms around him. I am thankful that I serve a God who will keep the gates of heaven eternally open.

God is good. God is love.

PacifistAg said:

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Yep. We see it on the cross when He that even while we were His enemies, He died for us. I think we see it in the parable of the Prodigal Son, which is my favorite parable. The Father never stops looking at the horizon for His son to return home. He runs to meet him, doesn't demand apologies, but instead forgives and wraps His arms around him. I am thankful that I serve a God who will keep the gates of heaven eternally open.

God is good. God is love.

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So all are going to heaven, right?

Patriot101 said:

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PacifistAg said:

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Yep. We see it on the cross when He that even while we were His enemies, He died for us. I think we see it in the parable of the Prodigal Son, which is my favorite parable. The Father never stops looking at the horizon for His son to return home. He runs to meet him, doesn't demand apologies, but instead forgives and wraps His arms around him. I am thankful that I serve a God who will keep the gates of heaven eternally open.

God is good. God is love.

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So all are going to heaven, right?

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I believe the Orthodox theology where we are all in the presence of God after we die. For those that love God, it is bliss, for those who do not, it is a purifying "fire" which I believe God uses to refine and reconcile all.

2 Peter 3:9

And God gets what He wants. He is totally sovereign.