PacifistAg said:

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Serotonin said:

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Another aspect that makes it a relevant discussion here is how this has infected the church here in America.

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You've talked before about politics seeping into religion in our country, I'm interested in your opinion of why that is.

Some theories:
1. American culture has grown less ordered and more chaotic than X years ago so morals, virtues, beliefs and even the truth and facts are up for grabs in the political arena and subject to private judgment without any objective national or institutional moral authority. So some churches are trying to step in to fill the void.

2. Universal suffrage democracy is a relatively new phenomenon. Now the politics and political intrigue that were limited to a king's court in 1500 have expanded to every individual and every nook and cranny in society. When everyone becomes a political actor, people act politically.

3. We've grown decadent and complacent as a people and even church has grown shallow so the only place to find meaning now is in war/patriotism (on the right) or social justice movements (on the left).

You have a unique perspective as someone who is pretty apolitical, what's your take here?

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Honestly, I think you aren't far off with the 2nd point. The average person wields political power, and the use of power to "do good" is a temptation that is as old as man. We see it in 1 Samuel 8. The elders of Israel saw that the sons of Samuel couldn't be trusted with power, so what did they do? They sought power in the form of a king like the nations surrounding them. This, though, was viewed as a rejection of the Kingship of God. We see this temptation again when Christ was tempted with all the kingdoms (political entities) of the world. Just think of all the good He could do with that earthly power. But even Christ knew that power corrupts, and rejected that temptation. So, I think it's rooted in a genuine desire to do good, as well as the hubris in thinking that we can get it right this time. That if we just create the perfect system, it will restrain the corruptive effects of power.

But the more we pursue this path, the more we begin to see the "other" as the enemy. The more we see the "other" as the enemy, especially when power is theoretically widely distributed among the masses, the more we seek power to defeat our enemy. And it becomes a vicious cycle. We begin to coalesce into our own little bubbles, ideologically and geographically. We shun the "other"...or worse, we begin to hate the "other" because we see them as perpetual threats. So what started out with genuine intentions turns into an "other"-hating echo chamber. Sadly, we're seeing this infect the church. We go to church with those like us, because we effectively create geographic bubbles in which we live. The longer we isolate from the "other", the more extreme we become in our views because there is no challenge.

Look at voting for example. So many act as though voting is the most important thing in life. I am a non-voter, and I receive hatred from both sides. Why? Because I am rejecting the power to defeat their "enemy", which makes me an enemy to them. I get it from both sides.

David French actually just wrote a great piece on this.

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AstroAg17 said:

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Does that extend to non-Americans as well? Do you view communists in China or theocratic Saudis the same way? What are the criteria for being an "enemy"?

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Ag4coal said:

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AstroAg17 said:

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Does that extend to non-Americans as well? Do you view communists in China or theocratic Saudis the same way? What are the criteria for being an "enemy"?

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We can have all the enemies we want outside of our borders. No problem with that. This article sums up (correctly) the idea that if you start to believe your fellow citizens are the "enemy", then you will cease talking to them. And when you cease talking to them, you become more entrenched in the "enemy" status.

All fine and good if you want to go to war and split the country. If you have a desire to maintain your country, it's not a healthy attitude to have. I don't care to remain friendly with Iran or China, so I do not care to avoid considering them as an "enemy". I do care about remaining friendly with roughly 50% of our citizens, so I hope we can all stop seeing the "other side" as an "enemy" and just someone who disagrees with us.

I've made more headway with liberals by simply having civilized conversation than I could have thought possible. No, they don't change their minds, but they also start to see how, just maybe, not all conservative are white supremacist *******s.

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Beer Baron said:

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Yeah, that's why I think even thought Q followers are a relatively small group, the ideas coming from it are more widespread. One person follows it, says something about it to their friends or shares a meme based on it, and people just believe it because it confirms what they already think.

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HossAg said:

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It lines up with their political/religious agenda so they believe it to a certain extent.

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UglyGiantBagOfMostlyWater said:

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Ag4coal said:

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Beer Baron said:

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Yeah, that's why I think even thought Q followers are a relatively small group, the ideas coming from it are more widespread. One person follows it, says something about it to their friends or shares a meme based on it, and people just believe it because it confirms what they already think.

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This. I don't think the average pedophile believer, pizza gate believer, etc. is actually a "QAnon". They've likely heard a few things, felt like it made sense . . . .

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But how do you go from ok Hilary Clinton is a dirty politician who's views are dumb to she's the leader of a satanist pedophilic organization that drinks the blood of children to retain their youth? Like what reasonable line of thinking is their to make that make sense?

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This has been the result of our political climate. The opposition isn't just wrong they are evil. These aren't things about Which intelligent well intentioned people disagree in this world. It's good and evil lord of the rings style.

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HossAg said:

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It's unfortunate that over exaggerated memes on Facebook are the primary news source for older people these days.

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AstroAg17 said:

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Old people also tend to believe anecdotes over data.

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