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A blood Jew is a descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. It exists.

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Prove it. I'll counter with the leading geneticist on the planet, a man of Jewish background by the way.

Geneticist David Reich of Harvard has been asked:

Who is more closely related genetically to the Hebrews of the Old Testament: Israeli Jews or Palestinians?

What did he say?

He said he will not research this question.

Again, my point:

NO ONE HAS "SPECIAL DNA." WE MUST ALL CHOOSE.
RELIGION IS THE BEST DEFINITION OF "JEWISH" REGARDING OUR CONVERSATION ON THIS THREAD.

Science is always the proof we think it is. I am not here to make a mockery of Jews. If that is your goal, go for it, but I won't be a part of it.

No one has a special DNA? It isn't about DNA per say, yes anyone can convert to Judaism. The people and religion God established is Judaism. Not Christianity, or Buddhism, or Hinduism, etc. Per the Bible, God will bring all 12 tribes back to Israel. As quoted above from Isaiah 56, anyone can start following the Sabbath and the rest of Torah. Then learn why and how this connects one to God.

Asking you to back your claim with regard to "blood Jews" is not mockery.....it is asking you to detail the reasons for the claim.

Again, my contention is what while genetic markers can and do exist, as populations quasi self-isolate and "inbreed" over generations.....

A) Sand and Reich is correct this is quite limited for Jews, as with most populations - certainly less than 2,000 years .... not to mention the MANY converts to post-70 Judaism- from Spain to Yemen to Khazaria and beyond

B) RACE IS NOT THE BEST DEFINITION - At all
Logos - accept / reject has FAR more explanatory power

So - detail your claim?

While I really don't have a dog in this fight between 95 and Redstone, I will say that relative genetic markers isn't the best way to go about declaring whether or not someone is 'bloodline' jewish. It assumes a 'pure' bloodline that doesn't reflect the old testament reality that israelites married into their neighboring countries families, as well as were exiled to babylon and married there. Even then, the surrounding communities can all trace their family history back up to Abraham as well. How many different groups of people were founded by some outcast of the family or a child out of wedlock. They would have a high crossover of genetic markers.

That is why you see a huge importance in tracing families in the old testament because that is what mattered.
It served its purpose until Jesus's time. Nowadays I have no idea who has record of their family tree all the way back to Abraham, or even David or Jesus.

My term blood Jews was meaning descendants from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Does that mean they never intermarried with other groups? No. I never said a "pure" blood. It seems that you are somehow reading that into my words. There are Torah instructions on bringing in a woman captured in war. Although the Jews weren't supposed to freely intermarry and produce children with outsiders, they did. There are several stories of those who converted. Many ways others came into and mixed with the Jews. I am a convert if was not married then I could marry a Jewish woman and bring another variety into the blood. Judaism isn't a blood cult, but you must accept the adherents of Judaism to join.

This is no different than we you were stating the chiefs in Israel believe that Buddhism and atheism is acceptable within Judaism. It wasn't true. Non-practicing Jews followed those pagan ways, that doesn't mean Judaism accepts it.

My claim with regard to atheism and Buddhism is that -
many millions of Jews these 15 decades since Wilhelm Marr and other radical journalists invented "Semitic" and "anti-Semitic" as racial slur words (WHICH I REJECT, and my Christian grandmother from Aleppo was a member of the Semite language groupings)....

have practiced these AND STILL WERE WIDELY CONSIDERED JEWS. This is so obvious. And not just that - some of the most famous and important Jews in recent history! Regarding the court cases, look it up, especially the academic book about the most famous court case. My characterizations here are 100% verifiable and accurate.

This response is in pretty strong disharmony with your posts earlier stating that some tribes were still visible via genetics.

Can you back this up?

I'll again plainly state my position:

ALL tribes of Old Testament Israel have been scattered to the wind. Never to return.

A great many of these men and women became followers of Christ, exactly as Acts tells us.

ALL who follow the Logos Incarnate are the people Israel, exactly as Christ rejected the racial claim of the Temple leaders who made a racial claim to be "children of Abraham."

We who follow Christ follow Moses and Abraham.

Ok. Thanks for the discussion.

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up.

For about a year before we left Sar Shalom, we were looking to leave. I am going to refrain from certain points so I don't speak any lashon hara. Hashem created an event that basically made us to make the decision to leave. It was abrupt unfortunately for everyone involved. We do speak to several people who attend still today. I can't say much else without speaking lashon hara, so that is about it.

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Google helped me with Lashon hara but Hashem event?

you said you left Christianity.. do you feeling you were still Christian at Sar Shalom or like that was just a stop on the way that eased you into Judaism?

Hashem translates as The Name and refers to God. I typically try and write God in this forum, but outside of here I write Hashem. God is really a bad concept though imo.

I nor most of the people when I was there didn't consider themselves Christian. I can't speak for everyone which is why I say most. It is spoken from the top that they consider themselves Jews. Aside from believing Yeshua is the Messiah, the rest of Christianity they don't keep. That includes Christian holidays like Christmas and Easter. They don't celebrate Halloween, but not everyone sees that as Christian. They don't believe in the trinity. Some believe in the virgin birth, but not all. Most believe the messiah was a man.
Instead of baptisms that have a mikvah.

Those were the beliefs in general while I was there, but it has been quite a while since I attended.

I also appreciate our discussion and I wish you well on your spiritual journey.

Also, as a fellow former Baptist, I am really sympathetic to the view "there must be more than this." I remember well from being a searching teenager in the pew.

I do, hope, however, that you come to the Sacraments and the Apostolic faith. This is the fulfillment of all OT faith and practice, and can be detailed as such point by point.

Could you expound on God being a really bad concept? That doesn't compute for a seemingly very religious person.

I didn't think you had considered yourself a Christian, you were always calling us pagans. I just wanted to clarify from your earlier "I left Christianity" to see if that more meant the Baptist life or both Baptist and SS.

Lots of connotations associated with the word god.

I wasn't going around calling everyone pagans. I probably said something like Christianity is pagan though. I can understand how one would attribute "Christianity is pagan" as calling someone a pagan. I don't sit around thinking so-so is a pagan. Just note, my in-laws and other relatives are still Christians.

How do you translate Elohim? Gods, no?

That is one of the Divine names and we don't use it except for in prayer. In can mean God, gods, rulers, or judges.

I mean, god just means the concept of divinity. Just like theos. The detail comes when you say - which god? Who are you talking about? The god of who? How is that concept of divinity bad?

Actually, frequently when you see "gods" in the OT plural with a little "g" the word being translated is Ba'alim, which is the word for the Canaanite pagan gods. (The Ba'als) If you capitalize the G in English, it's as if you are capitalizing the pagan gods and attaching that to YHWH.

I believe that is the jist to the aversion with using the English word "god".

Just my 0.02

Also, didn't Bracy attend Sat Shalom? Are we talking to the same guy here or another?

Not bad as in wrong, but a bad translation. Elokim (our way of stating this name in general) doesn't actually mean God that is just how it is translated many times. It literally means supreme one or mighty one.

No guy named bracy attended the 6 years I was there.

agie95 said:

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No guy named bracy attended the 6 years I was there.

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That was his Texags username. Don't think that was also his actual name.

Bracy was good people. Big influence on me when I started down the Messianic road. Haven't talked to him in a about a decade, though.

I think I'm confusing usernames. Bracy might have been the guy from Houston who last posted about ten years ago. If so, I know he went through some hard times.

The guy I'm trying to remember stopped posting about two years ago. Messianic from FW area that I'm pretty sure attended Sar Shalom. Was very rabbinic and tiptoed around questions of Yeshua's divinity.

Can't help you there. The only "Messianics" I know are here are you, 95, and Bracy from back when. Opk is the only straight up Jewish person I've run across here. Then again I've had months to years long gaps away from this place, so any number of people could have come and gone

Bracy and I had quite the e-history here, and I don't think anyone ever got a straight answer with regard to Christ's divinity.

There was no other Aggies at Sar Shalom while I attended.

In the context of this thread, today's Mass readings seemed quite appropriate to add.

Read together, these verses really do capture the Apostolic view.

ACTS 11:19-26
Now those who were scattered because of the persecution that arose over Stephen traveled as far as Phoeni'cia and Cyprus and Antioch, speaking the word to none except Jews. But there were some of them, men of Cyprus and Cyre'ne, who on coming to Antioch spoke to the Greeks also, preaching the Lord Jesus. And the hand of the Lord was with them, and a great number that believed turned to the Lord. News of this came to the ears of the church in Jerusalem, and they sent Barnabas to Antioch. When he came and saw the grace of God, he was glad; and he exhorted them all to remain faithful to the Lord with steadfast purpose; for he was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and of faith. And a large company was added to the Lord. So Barnabas went to Tarsus to look for Saul; 26and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. For a whole year they met with the church, and taught a large company of people; and in Antioch the disciples were for the first time called Christians.

PSALMS 87:1-7
On the holy mount stands the city he founded; the LORD loves the gates of Zion more than all the dwelling places of Jacob. Glorious things are spoken of you, O city of God. Among those who know me I mention Rahab and Babylon; behold, Philistia and Tyre, with Ethiopia -- "This one was born there," they say. And of Zion it shall be said, "This one and that one were born in her"; for the Most High himself will establish her. The LORD records as he registers the peoples, "This one was born there." Singers and dancers alike say, "All my springs are in you."

JOHN 10:22-30
It was the feast of the Dedication at Jerusalem; it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the portico of Solomon. So the Jews gathered round him and said to him, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly." Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness to me; but you do not believe, because you do not belong to my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one."