What Would Happen Or Should Happen If The Jewish Temple Treasures Were Ever Found?

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agie95
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10:11a, 4/22/20
AG
Regarding the veil being torn, this event is basically recorded in one place. Yes, it is in 3 of the gospels, but that is in effect the same writing. There is zero evidence in oral or written history aside from the 3 gospels. The Temple continued operating with the sacrifices and the Yom Kippur service. It is highly doubtful that the Temple service would have continued without the veil in place. It would have taken months to create a new one.

Therefore, one must ask did the veil really tear? The Temple layout is a visual of a human being, with a eyes, mouth, nose, arms and legs. Could the "tearing of the veil" really be symbolism?

This is something I have always had trouble with since there is no other documentation of the event happening during a time period that lots of things were written about.
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Zobel
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In reply to agie95 • 10:47a, 4/22/20
AG
yikes
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dds08
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10:55a, 4/22/20
AG
Jesus, upon his ascension, said that he would send the Spirit who will guide us into all truth.

I believe this is more significant/meaningful than finding the actual Ark of the Covenant. It would be great, but not necessary.
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Aggrad08
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In reply to agie95 • 7:15p, 4/22/20
AG
You are smart to question that, by that same reasoning Matthew's absurd claim about dead people walking out of their tombs should be regarded as ahistorical
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agie95
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In reply to Aggrad08 • 9:15p, 4/22/20
AG
Absolutely....no evidence outside of gospels. Another one is the virgin birth. Quite amazed that outside of the gospels it isn't mentioned. Paul, Peter, John never mention it. Most if not all of the letters were written prior to the gospels, leading many to believe that it didn't happen. Some believe the story was added later. Coincide that with Luke 2 where Yeshua grew in stature with both God and men. Then with Acts 10:38 where God gave Yeshua the holy spirit and power. Why would God have to give Himself the Holy Spirit and power? Later in the verse it states that God was with him....duhhhh. He was God....or was he?
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PA24
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10:06p, 4/22/20
AG
What a pity for someone to be spending such precious time studying a God they don't believe in.

Life is short, you'll find out the truth sooner than later.





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agie95
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In reply to PA24 • 10:22a, 4/23/20
AG
Ubitag said:
What a pity for someone to be spending such precious time studying a God they don't believe in.

Life is short, you'll find out the truth sooner than later.





I believe God. The one and true God. I don't believe that the messiah is a God. That is pagan.
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Zobel
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In reply to agie95 • 10:23a, 4/23/20
AG
Or in the gospels, apparently.
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brownbrick
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In reply to agie95 • 5:00p, 4/23/20
AG
agie95 said:

I believe God. The one and true God. I don't believe that the messiah is a God. That is pagan.
Psalm 110
The Lord (Yehova) says to my Lord (Adonai):
"Sit at My right hand
Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet."

Weird, God is calling someone else God too.

I wonder do you believe in the resurrection of Jesus from the dead and his ascension? Nearly every New Testament writer wrote of those things, not just the Gospels. Or do you reject the entire New Testament?

Isaiah 9:6 "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

Psalm 2
"Why are the [a]nations in an uproar
And the peoples devising a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth take their stand
And the rulers take counsel together
Against the Lord and against His [b]Anointed, saying,
3 "Let us tear their fetters apart
And cast away their cords from us!"
4 He who [c]sits in the heavens laughs,
The Lord scoffs at them.
5 Then He will speak to them in His anger
And terrify them in His fury, saying,
6 "But as for Me, I have [d]installed My King
Upon Zion, My holy mountain."
7 "I will surely tell of the [e]decree of the Lord:
He said to Me, 'You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.
8 'Ask of Me, and I will surely give the [f]nations as Your inheritance,
And the very ends of the earth as Your possession.
9 'You shall [g]break them with a [h]rod of iron,
You shall shatter them like [i]earthenware.'"
10 Now therefore, O kings, show discernment;
Take warning, O [j]judges of the earth.
11 [k]Worship the Lord with [l]reverence
And rejoice with trembling.
12 [m]Do homage to the Son, that He not become angry, and you perish in the way,
For His wrath may [n]soon be kindled.
How blessed are all who take refuge in Him!

Jeremiah 23:5-6
5"Behold, the days are coming," declares the Lord (Yehovah),
"When I will raise up for David a righteous [c]Branch;
And He will reign as king and [d]act wisely
And do justice and righteousness in the land.
6 "In His days Judah will be saved,
And Israel will dwell securely;
And this is His name by which He will be called,
'The Lord (Yehovah) our righteousness.'

Weird, God calling someone else God again.

Proverbs 30:4
Who has ascended into heaven and descended?
Who has gathered the wind in His fists?
Who has wrapped the waters in [b]His garment?
Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is His name or His son's name?
Surely you know!

God has a son.

Zechariah 2:9-12
9 For behold, I will wave My hand over them so that they will be plunder for their slaves. Then you will know that the Lord (Yehovah) of hosts has sent Me. 10 Sing for joy and be glad, O daughter of Zion; for behold I am coming and I will dwell in your midst," declares the Lord (Yehovah). 11 "Many nations will join themselves to the Lord in that day and will become My people. Then I will dwell in your midst, and you will know that the Lord of hosts has sent Me to you.

So God is sending someone who also declares himself to be God. Hmmm... if only we had some other sources on this matter.

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agie95
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In reply to brownbrick • 7:11p, 4/23/20
AG
All presented with a Christian bias.

For instance, Psalm 110 uses Adonai and those with a Christian bias read that as God. Yet, the word is used many times in the Bible referring to men. Most of the time when this word is used it is referring to a man. Do you think God has a right hand as well?

Isaiah 9:6 - Much too long to present for me at this time.

Psalm 2 - How does a spirit, since God is a spirit, have a son?

Jeremiah 23:5-6 - in Genesis 33:20 Jacob called the altar he set up "El is Israel's God." Is the altar God? In Psalm 82:6 the verse states you are "Elokim" - translated by most translations as god. Are all men gods as well? names are often given to human beings, and even to inanimate objects, with the intention of expressing honor to God (e.g., Exodus 17:15, Jeremiah 3:17). It is not at all strange to find biblical names which incorporate the divine name within them. In Jeremiah 23:5-6, the name is there to tell us why the Messiah's rule will be just and equal for all, the source of the Messiah's righteousness is God. "The Lord is our righteousness" indicates that God will direct His Messiah's every step. The inclusion of God's name signifies the total submission of the Messiah's every action to the will of God.

Proverbs 30:4 - Exodus 4:22-23 - You are to say to Pharaoh, "This is what Adonai says: 'Israel is My son, My firstborn. 23 So I have said to you, Let My son go, that he may serve Me, but you have refused to let him go. Behold, I will slay your son, your firstborn.'"

Zechariah 2 - I have never had someone present this verse to me in this manner. Totally out of context. God's presence was among the people in the Temple. His presence will be there again. What is interesting is you are using a passage that speaks about God doing things to people who have treated Israel, His son, badly. This is about God saving Israel. The irony.
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brownbrick
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In reply to agie95 • 8:08p, 4/23/20
AG
agie95 said:
All presented with a Christian bias.

For instance, Psalm 110 uses Adonai and those with a Christian bias read that as God. Yet, the word is used many times in the Bible referring to men. Most of the time when this word is used it is referring to a man. Do you think God has a right hand as well?
....
Zechariah 2 - I have never had someone present this verse to me in this manner. Totally out of context. God's presence was among the people in the Temple. His presence will be there again. What is interesting is you are using a passage that speaks about God doing things to people who have treated Israel, His son, badly. This is about God saving Israel. The irony.
On Adonai. I challenge you to prove your assertion. In the Pentateuch, there are 19 uses of this word. Only two refer to something other than God, and those are Lot speaking to the messengers from God before they destroy Sodom.

You said most of the time it is referring to men. Prove it. I have looked at every usage through Psalm 16 and only found 3 uses this was. The third is in reference to the captain of the armies of the Lord when Joshua is about to go into Jericho. There are 434 uses of this word in the OT. I'm willing to bet less than 20 refer to men, and at any rate it won't be most.

As for His right hand,

Lamentations 2:3

In fierce anger He has cut off
All the strength of Israel;
He has drawn back His right hand
From before the enemy.
And He has burned in Jacob like a flaming fire
Consuming round about.

Psalm 16:11

You will make known to me the path of life;
In Your presence is fullness of joy;
In Your right hand there are pleasures forever.

Psalm 48:10

As is Your name, O God,
So is Your praise to the ends of the earth;
Your right hand is full of righteousness.

Isaiah 62:8

The Lord has sworn by His right hand and by His strong arm,
"I will never again give your grain as food for your enemies;
Nor will foreigners drink your new wine for which you have labored."

Psalm 60:5

That Your beloved may be delivered,
Save with Your right hand, and answer us!

Psalm 108:6

That Your beloved may be delivered,
Save with Your right hand, and answer me!

Psalm 17:7

Wondrously show Your lovingkindness,
O Savior of those who take refuge at Your right hand
From those who rise up against them.

Psalm 20:6

Now I know that the Lord saves His anointed;
He will answer him from His holy heaven
With the saving strength of His right hand.

Isaiah 48:13

"Surely My hand founded the earth,
And My right hand spread out the heavens;
When I call to them, they stand together.

_______________________________________________________________________________
Regarding Zechariah 2 - I wasn't taking it out of context at all. I never said this wasn't about God judging those who had harmed Israel. He has, He does, and He will. You didn't address verse 11 at all. "I will dwell in your midst, and you will know the that the Lord of hosts has sent Me to you." Why does he say, has sent the Lord has sent me? The way you interpret it the rendering should be the Lord of hosts will be among you, but He is sending someone to Israel. And not just to the people of Israel, because many nations will be joined not to Israel, but to the Lord. Your contention was that Messiah cannot be God, you haven't refuted that.

I really think you made up your claim about the word Adonai, I don't know why. Who is David's Lord that is being referred to as Adonai? What man is this, surely David used this term to refer to someone in all the writings about him? Or maybe you will see that almost everytime David uses the word in the Psalms it refers not to men but God. But anyway, it was your assertion. You prove me wrong.
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Redstone
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9:31p, 4/23/20
AG
All of the Temple treasures exist right now, and in greater abundance.

100% of them:

Priesthood - Priesthood
Sacrifice - Mass
Manna (some was in the Ark) - Eucharist
Ark - St. Mary
Temple - body
Gold - faith, hope, charity, love
Scriptures - Old and New Testaments
Word of God - Christ
Counselors - Holy Spirit
Circumcision - Baptism
The people Israel - Christians
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agie95
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In reply to brownbrick • 1:24p, 4/24/20
AG
Gen 18:12 - So Sarah laughed to herself, saying, "After I've grown decrepit, can I have desireand my lord so old?"

Sarah speaking about Abraham saying "and my lord so old". The last two words transliterated is vadoni (my lord) and zakein (old).


Genesis 19:2 - Then he said, "Here, please my lords, please turn aside to your servant's house, spend the night and wash your feet. Then you can get up early and go on your way."

Abraham is speaking to the angels and calls them my lords. The 4th word in the verse is adonai.


Genesis 23:6 - "Listen to us, my lord. You are a prince of God among us.

The sons of Heth speaking to Abraham. The second word in the verse is adoni.


Genesis 23:11 - "No, my lord, listen to me. The fieldI hereby give it to you.

Ephron the Hittite speaking to Abraham. The second word in the verse is adoni.


I could go on but you can look the rest up in the link below. H113 is the Strong's number for the word used in Psalm 110. Per BLB this is how the KJV translates the word. Notice lower case lord is 197 times while uppercase Lord is 31. While Adonai can mean God, His others names or titles are used much more throughout the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible).

The KJV translates Strong's H113 in the following manner: lord (197x), master(s) (105x), Lord (31x), owner (1x), sir (1x).

Notice lower case lord is 197 times while uppercase Lord is 31. While Adonai can mean God, His others names or titles are used much more throughout the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible).

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H113&t=KJV

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brownbrick
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2:28p, 4/24/20
AG
Now this is interesting, the Strongs word for Lord in Psalm 110 is H136 according to NASB. I'm also using Blue Letter Bible. Which backs up what I stated previously. So who is David's Lord according to your interpretation?

I'll stick with my interpretation, since it is the same one Jesus quoted to the sanhedrin in Matthew 26.
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agie95
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In reply to brownbrick • 4:40p, 4/24/20
AG
brownbrick said:
Now this is interesting, the Strongs word for Lord in Psalm 110 is H136 according to NASB. I'm also using Blue Letter Bible. Which backs up what I stated previously. So who is David's Lord according to your interpretation?

I'll stick with my interpretation, since it is the same one Jesus quoted to the sanhedrin in Matthew 26.
H136 is an emphatic use if H113, at least per NASB Strong's. From a Hebrew perspective, not NASB Strong's, H136 and H113 are the same word. What is interesting is I looked at approx. 20 uses of H136 and each time it is referencing God Adonai is used. Now ladoni as in Psalm 110 is a conjugated form saying "to my lord", but interesting that all the other times actually referring to God is spelled differently.

So i guess, I am not a liar now? You know just making up stuff.


Regarding Psalm 110 and Matthew 26 there is nothing there that proves that Yeshua is God. I agree that Yeshua is stating that he will be the one sitting at the "right hand of God", but that in no way proves that he is God. In fact, it shows he is separate from God. God is a spirit so no one is truly going to be sitting at His right hand. It is a figure of speech. Sitting at the right hand means a sign of authority, power, strength, sovereignty, etc, not indicating someone is God. The phrase someone's right hand man comes to mind.

If Yeshua is God in the flesh, then how God grow in favor and stature with Himself? How can God grow in wisdom and stature?

Luke 2:52 - And Yeshua kept increasing in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.

Why does Peter say he is a man:

Acts 2:22 - "Men of Israel, hear these words! Yeshua ha-Natzratia Man authenticated to you by God with mighty deeds and wonders and signs God performed through Him in your midst, as you yourselves know
(bolding is my emphasis).

Yeshua calls himself a man:

John 8:40 - But now you are seeking to kill Mea man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God. This Abraham did not do!

Paul calls Yeshua a man:

Acts 17:31 - For He has set a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness, through a man whom He has appointed. He has brought forth evidence of this to all men, by raising Him from the dead."

Romans 5:15 - For if many died because of the transgression of one man, how much more did the grace of God overflow to many through the gift of one manYeshua the Messiah.

1 Timothy 2:5 - For there is one God and there is one Mediator between God and mena human, Messiah Yeshua,

Yeshua says he is not God

Mark 10:18 - "Why do you call Me good?" Yeshua said to him. "No one is good except Onethat is God.

Yeshua stating he has a different will than the Father.

Luke 22:42 - saying, "Father, if You are willing, take this cup from Me; yet not my will, but Yours be done."


Plus many more. The Hebrew Bible does not teach a Messiah that is God. When reading the NT with a certain bias, a bias that the Messiah is God, you are going to see him as God.
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Zobel
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In reply to agie95 • 7:06p, 4/24/20
AG
You have to completely, totally, fundamentally ignore all kinds of prophecy to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, but not God.

The takeaway from Isaiah and *many others* is that the Lord is going to be the one who rescues Israel. The Lord is going to come, the Lord is going to do all of these things.

He is the one who treads the winepress alone, who has lifeblood on His garments, who stained His raiment. He is the one who brought salvation to Himself. (Isaiah 63). The entirety of St Luke's gospel centers on this revelation, that Jesus Christ is the One. He is both God and the suffering servant. Micah says His origin is from old, from ancient days. (Micah 5:2). John says in the beginning the Word was God, and was with God, and became Man. Christ Jesus Himself explicitly uses the divine name, "I AM" in John. He ascribes the Son of Man to Himself, the One who sits at the right hand of God. Emmanuel itself means "God with us" (Isaiah 7:4). He is the child, the son, and his name is called - what? Mighty man? No. Mighty God! the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6).

Only the LORD sustains Israel, preserves Israel, created heavens and the earth Alone (Isaiah 44:24). But St Paul says all things came through Jesus Christ (1 Cor 8:4-6).

Only the LORD saves, everyone who calls on His name. (Joel 2:32). But St Paul says to call on the name of - Our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Cor 1:2).

Only the LORD has the day of Judgment. And yet St Paul says the day belongs to Jesus Christ (1 Cor 1:7-8, 1 Cor 5:5) and that the judgment seat is Christ's (2 Cor 5:10).

Only the LORD searches the hearts of men (1 Kings 8:39, 1 Chronicles 28:9) - but Christ Jesus, says St Paul, exposes the motives of men's hearts (1 Corinthians 4:4-5).

The people are only to assemble as the assemble of the Lord (Deuteronomy 23:1-3 etc etc) but the assemblies of the NT are those of and in the name of Jesus Christ (Romans 16:16, 1 Cor 1:10, 1 Cor 5:5).

Only the LORD sanctifies and judges (Exodues 31:13, Isaiah 45:21-25) but St Paul says Christ justifies and sanctifies (1 Cor 1:2,30 1 Cor 6:11) and he even invokes Isaiah 45 to Christ Jesus in Philippians 2:9-11! Every knee bows, every tongue confesses the name of Jesus Christ!

Jeremiah says to boast only in the LORD (Jeremiah 9:23-24) and St Paul boasts in Christ Jesus (1 Cor 1:31, 2:1-5).

The LORD is the king of Glory, the Lord is mighty in battle, the gates are lifted up for the LORD almighty - HE is the king of Glory (Ps 24:1-2, 7-10). St Paul says Christ Jesus is the Lord of glory! (1 Cor 2:8).

Throughout the OT the LORD GOD is the rock (Deut 32:4 and many, many others) and St Paul says that "rock was Christ" (1 Cor 10:1-4).

No Rabbi, no Pharisee and teacher of the Law with St Paul's zeal would ever make the mistake of ascribing to Christ Jesus the name above all names if that name was not synonymous with the name no Jew would even say aloud, except the high priest and then only whispered once per year.

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Redstone
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In reply to agie95 • 7:23p, 4/24/20
AG
Your post here is a prime example of why the "Meta" issues are so essential:

The Scriptures are very literally a product of the Apostolic Church (Catholic / Orthodox). It is not the "word of God" (Jesus is). The Bible you use was debated and decided and formed over 3 centuries, in councils mostly from Rome.

So, who interprets, you? Neither you or I should. That's how we get division upon division. And things like your post, denying the Trinity.

(And yes, read the Bible, I recommend David Bentley Hart translation.)
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Win At Life
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9:09p, 4/24/20
AG
Both you guys are missing the most declarative scripture about the divinity of Yeshua; Acts 2:36.

"Therefore, let all the house of Israel know for certain the Elohim has made Him both YHWH and Mashiach - this Yeshua whom you crucified."

Therefore, we worship YHWH Yeshua HaMashiach. Amein.
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Redstone
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In reply to agie95 • 9:35p, 4/24/20
AG
Fully God and fully Man (the new Adam) is a teaching from the 1st Century by the exact same religious group that debated and eventually codified the Bible - the same Bible occasionally twisted by those who claim Christ is not God.

So....problem.

Anyone who argues this not only goes against the group that gave that person the Scriptures- they are not qualified in the slightest to make such a claim. Not I as a counterclaim.

Read with the Apostolic Church.
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Redstone
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In reply to agie95 • 9:42p, 4/24/20
AG
The Temple will never be rebuilt. Ever. I say this for two reasons: temporal and spiritual.

Temporal: any movement of any shovel for this will immediately start a very hot war. And it will be a total war of massive destruction, though Titus in 70 was extremely thorough.

Spiritual: its been tried multiple times. In all times, unexplainable and large events intervened. Research it. IMO God forbids any attempt.

We have the Temple: it is I, and you.

Regarding Israel:
the people who follow Logos are the people Israel, both before and after Jesus. Reject Logos, and be of Satan, as a son is to a father.
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agie95
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In reply to Zobel • 1:36p, 4/26/20
AG
Who led the Israelites out of Egypt, God or Moses? That picture is a picture of the final redemption. A man will lead the final redemption via the direction of God.
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agie95
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In reply to Redstone • 1:42p, 4/26/20
AG
You have to argue with Ezekiel 40-48. He clearly outlines a Temple that has yet to be built. If it isn't built then he is a false prophet.

Man has always been a Temple. Nothing changed from when there was or wasn't a Temple.
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Zobel
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In reply to agie95 • 1:48p, 4/26/20
AG
Moses or God? The answer is yes.
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agie95
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In reply to Win At Life • 1:53p, 4/26/20
AG
It is highly problematic that you think you can use the Divine name. Specially in a forum like this...not holy in any sense of the word.

Looking at Acts 2:36, God never calls Yeshua the Divine name.

From BLB -
[ol]
  • he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord
    [ol]
  • the possessor and disposer of a thing
    [ol]
  • the owner; one who has control of the person, the master
  • in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor
    • [/ol]
  • is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master
  • this title is given to: God, the Messiah
    • [/ol][/ol]
    As you can see this title is used for many people and in no way means God. Yes, the last definition says title given to God, but many men are given this title as well. Not the solid proof that you think it is.

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    agie95
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    In reply to Zobel • 1:54p, 4/26/20
    AG
    I agree. Yet the promise was God would deliver them. The same is for the final redemption. God has promised to deliver, but He will use a man just as He did previously.
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    Zobel
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    In reply to agie95 • 1:56p, 4/26/20
    AG
    Yes. Christ Jesus is a man.
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    PA24
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    In reply to agie95 • 7:56p, 4/26/20
    AG
    agie95 said:
    brownbrick said:
    Now this is interesting, the Strongs word for Lord in Psalm 110 is H136 according to NASB. I'm also using Blue Letter Bible. Which backs up what I stated previously. So who is David's Lord according to your interpretation?

    I'll stick with my interpretation, since it is the same one Jesus quoted to the sanhedrin in Matthew 26.
    H136 is an emphatic use if H113, at least per NASB Strong's. From a Hebrew perspective, not NASB Strong's, H136 and H113 are the same word. What is interesting is I looked at approx. 20 uses of H136 and each time it is referencing God Adonai is used. Now ladoni as in Psalm 110 is a conjugated form saying "to my lord", but interesting that all the other times actually referring to God is spelled differently.

    So i guess, I am not a liar now? You know just making up stuff.


    Regarding Psalm 110 and Matthew 26 there is nothing there that proves that Yeshua is God. I agree that Yeshua is stating that he will be the one sitting at the "right hand of God", but that in no way proves that he is God. In fact, it shows he is separate from God. God is a spirit so no one is truly going to be sitting at His right hand. It is a figure of speech. Sitting at the right hand means a sign of authority, power, strength, sovereignty, etc, not indicating someone is God. The phrase someone's right hand man comes to mind.

    If Yeshua is God in the flesh, then how God grow in favor and stature with Himself? How can God grow in wisdom and stature?

    Luke 2:52 - And Yeshua kept increasing in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.

    Why does Peter say he is a man:

    Acts 2:22 - "Men of Israel, hear these words! Yeshua ha-Natzratia Man authenticated to you by God with mighty deeds and wonders and signs God performed through Him in your midst, as you yourselves know
    (bolding is my emphasis).

    Yeshua calls himself a man:

    John 8:40 - But now you are seeking to kill Mea man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God. This Abraham did not do!

    Paul calls Yeshua a man:

    Acts 17:31 - For He has set a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness, through a man whom He has appointed. He has brought forth evidence of this to all men, by raising Him from the dead."

    Romans 5:15 - For if many died because of the transgression of one man, how much more did the grace of God overflow to many through the gift of one manYeshua the Messiah.

    1 Timothy 2:5 - For there is one God and there is one Mediator between God and mena human, Messiah Yeshua,

    Yeshua says he is not God

    Mark 10:18 - "Why do you call Me good?" Yeshua said to him. "No one is good except Onethat is God.

    Yeshua stating he has a different will than the Father.

    Luke 22:42 - saying, "Father, if You are willing, take this cup from Me; yet not my will, but Yours be done."


    Plus many more. The Hebrew Bible does not teach a Messiah that is God. When reading the NT with a certain bias, a bias that the Messiah is God, you are going to see him as God.
    You will like this sermon...enemies of God, get a understanding of who God really is.



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    agie95
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    In reply to PA24 • 9:49a, 4/27/20
    AG
    Listening to a preacher for 45 minutes is not something I can do. Christianity is empty. If you want to know God, study the Torah, study the prophets. Not with a Christian mindset, but an open mindset.

    It is clear in the Torah, that no one can ever dismiss the Torah of God.

    Deuteronomy 13:1-5 - "Whatever I command you, you must take care to doyou are not to add to it or take away from it.
    2 "Suppose a prophet or a dreamer of dreams rises up among you and gives you a sign or wonder, 3 and the sign or wonder he spoke to you comes true, while saying, 'Let's follow other gods'that you have not known, and'Let's serve them!'
    .4 You must not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreamsfor Adonai your God is testing you, to find out whether you love Adonai your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 5 Adonai your God you will follow and Him you will fear. His mitzvot you will keep, to His voice you will listen, Him you will serve and to Him you will cling.


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    Zobel
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    In reply to agie95 • 9:52a, 4/27/20
    AG

    Quote:
    I can't be bothered to review your evidence and I can't respond to what you're saying, so here's an entirely new argument.

    <<random Hebrew words>>

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    PacifistAg
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    In reply to Zobel • 10:02a, 4/27/20
    AG
    I noticed he's dropped the dash from "God" at least. I guess that isn't as important to him anymore.
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    PacifistAg
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    In reply to agie95 • 10:09a, 4/27/20
    AG
    agie95 said:
    If you want to know God, study the Torah, study the prophets.

    Study the "shadow", but no mention of the "exact representation of His nature"...Jesus Christ? Odd. If I see a shadow cast by an object, I go to the actual source (the object). I don't put too much emphasis on the shadow, because that's how you end up thinking a dog is casting a shadow when, in reality, it's just a hand.

    Jesus is the Word made flesh. To know Him is to know the Father.
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    agie95
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    In reply to Zobel • 10:21a, 4/27/20
    AG
    That is bull and you know it. Expecting someone to listen to a 45 minute sermon is not practical. Specially, when what he says is against what I believe.
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    Redstone
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    10:36a, 4/27/20
    AG
    I've had Waco on my mind a lot lately. IN CONTEXT OF THE SIEGE, Koresh was the "good guy" (not even his underage polygamy was illegal, due to parental permission laws).
    https://sqpn.com/2020/04/david-koresh-waco-siege-branch-davidians-texas-apocalypse/

    Let us take his extreme example as a useful one -
    AND NO I AM NOT SAYING THOSE WHO OPPOSE MY VIEWS ON THIS THREAD ARE LIKE KORESH. THE POINT IS LARGER AND THIS IS A USEFUL EXAMPLE.

    We see the clear progression as this:
    - Catholic (Apostolic) - Anglican - Low Anglican - Wesleyan - Methodist - 7th Day Adventist - Branch Davidians - Students of the Seven Seals (Koresh)

    All smart people (including Koresh, who was very bright) using the same Bible as justifications for their teachings. So, again, who decides? Does the Holy Spirit speak against Himself? What came first, the Bible, or the Church? And is not Christ Himself the Word of God?

    Koresh, like the Adventists, placed an extremely high value upon Hebrew / Israelite / Torah...like Hagee.
    (AND NO, NOT PLACING AN EQUIVALENCE HERE)

    Inherently ripe for chaos, even if the chaos is only argumentation. There is a massive "meta" issue -

    The point is - stepping outside of the Apostolic view is always some measure of a problem. We must think with the Church, whose product is the Bible.


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    agie95
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    In reply to Redstone • 11:22a, 4/27/20
    AG
    The Bible you are referring to doesn't change Judaism. Yeshua did not come to start a new religion. Paul wasn't against the Torah...

    Acts 21:17--20 - When we arrived in Jerusalem, the brothers and sisters welcomed us gladly. 18 On the next day, Paul went in with us to Jacob; all the elders were present. 19 After greeting them, he reported to them in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through his service. 20 And when they heard, they began glorifying God.

    They said, "You see, brother, how many myriads there are among the Jewish people who have believedand they are all zealous for the Torah.
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    Redstone
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    11:31a, 4/27/20
    AG
    And yet Judaism changed very massively between April 3, 33 AD and 67 - 70 AD, didn't it?

    And don't a great number of New Testament verses make sense in the context of this generation transition time, such as the parents of the man born blind (Jews themselves) living, after the healing, in "fear of the Jews?" And several prophecies, such as "no stone shall be left unturned?"

    Christianity is older than Judaism.

    The reason is the MASSIVE, DEFINITIONAL change that occurred, by grave necessity, when Titus utterly decimated the Temple.

    Rabbinic Judaism - the only such we know today, despite its many variations - has as its defining, umbrella characteristic this:
    The Messianic claim of the Nazarene is wrong.

    The very moment, for example, that Israel Zolli, once chief rabbi of Rome, from a very distinguished Jewish family, got baptized, he became....exactly the same as me. A Catholic.
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