Wouldn't the organizational function of church within a christian goal oriented view of saving as many as possible serve as a great vehicle to organize efforts, fund missions and plan out directions of attack?

That is a crucial component that most churches carry out. I think the disconnect is it seems your position is that it's the only function churches should be performing.

Texaggie7nine said:

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Wouldn't the organizational function of church within a christian goal oriented view of saving as many as possible serve as a great vehicle to organize efforts, fund missions and plan out directions of attack?

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Good point, but can't all of these functions be performed by any human organization?

If I have the money can't I hire a third-party research firm to produce reports on under-served populations? Can't I hire a logistics firm to plan out several waves of mission activity and a human resources firm to staff my missions?

Alternatively, even if I wanted to start the organization you describe above, can't I hire a Jewish CEO or an agnostic CFO if they are really good at those job functions?

If the purpose of the Church is to help believers worship God, work out their salvation with the help of spiritual guidance, grow closer in union to God, participate in the sacraments/mysteries, etc., then there is no other organization that can fulfill that purpose.

But if the purpose of the Church is limited to what you describe above, then can't that purpose be fulfilled by other human organizations?

Gator03 said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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If you believe that Hell exists and that everyone is at risk of being there for eternity, then why would any church that actually cared about people do anything but focus on getting people saved? What does giving classes on how to be a good member have to do with saving souls?

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If salvation is just based on a one-time expression of faith, then is there even a point of having a church? Aren't you just wasting time singing with the worship band and listening to an expository sermon on 1 Kings?

If your'e saved then what is there left to do, other than try to go out and save other people? Why do you even need a formal church organization?

The Church is no longer a hospital for sinners, it's just a pharmacy with a one-time pill that saves you. Once you've taken the pill you don't need to go back, you just need to go out and give other people the pill. You actually don't even need church for that since any of us can produce and dispense the pill.

So in your salvational schema, the first question isn't what a church should require of its members, it's what the purpose of an organizational church even is.

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well, back in the beginning, people thought christ was coming back soon. when "soon" turned out to be thousands of years, the sense of urgency in his message got lost in the bureaucracy, i guess.

I would think it should be the primary function that dwarfs all others.

To the point that every policy decision made should be based on the question "would more or less people be saved due to this policy".

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But if the purpose of the Church is limited to what you describe above, then can't that purpose be fulfilled by other human organizations?

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I'm sorry. Are there secular organizations out there getting people saved?

The church I went to never did anything close to this. Membership was open to everyone, and participation was encouraged simply by being loving and welcoming to newcomers. It wouldn't feel genuine to me if I was completing a procedure to be accepted into a church.

Texaggie7nine said:

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But if the purpose of the Church is limited to what you describe above, then can't that purpose be fulfilled by other human organizations?

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I'm sorry. Are there secular organizations out there getting people saved?

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Do you need any organization to get people saved? If might be more efficient but it's not necessary. Can't any believer and his/her Bible save people?

The purpose of any organization would just for marketing, logistics, etc. For example, the Alpha course organization can have paid staff who aren't Christian if they are good at accounting, finance, marketing, videography, etc.

DP

Doesn't the scriptures kind of give a blueprint though?

Christ handed us a Church at the end of his first coming, scripture is a product of that Church.

However, are people required to work toward saving others, in order for them to be saved?

Why else would the scriptures say to go forth and spread the word? Why would God need his followers to be "fisher of men"?

Texaggie7nine said:

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Doesn't the scriptures kind of give a blueprint though?

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Isn't it clear from the New Testament that the early Church is very concerned with correct understanding of God, theological unity and how we are to live as Christians within the Church?

Texaggie7nine said:

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However, are people required to work toward saving others, in order for them to be saved?

Why else would the scriptures say to go forth and spread the word? Why would God need his followers to be "fisher of men"?

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After the last two pages perhaps it's worth establishing where your objections lie. I've tried to summarize the topic.

1. Who is welcome at church?
2. Who can become a Christian?
3. What is the church's responsibility to the new Christian?
4. What is the convert or believer's responsibility?

Am I missing anything big? I mean I feel like everyone's answer would be anyone to 1 and 2. It seems like we're currently litigating 3 and you dislike how I and others responded to 4. Is that a fair summary?

Texaggie7nine said:

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However, are people required to work toward saving others, in order for them to be saved?

Why else would the scriptures say to go forth and spread the word? Why would God need his followers to be "fisher of men"?

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I believe the Scripture says that Christ will make them fishers of men not that they will make themselves that. With all due respect, I believe you are not understanding the power of God and the Holy Spirit.

And I believe we are called to be witnesses, not converters. That is for other beliefs. Look at Christ's ministry. He only interacted with Jews and said that was His purpose. He did not yell at people. He did not say turn or burn. And if the only purpose of Jesus was to keep people out of "hell", wouldn't you think there would be more of an urgency to his ministry? And that He would have gone to Rome or Greece or large population areas?

Read Paul's sermon on Mars Hill and compare that to most modern evangelical presentations. It seems obvious to me that somewhere "Hell" and being "saved" as a binary event took precedence over what the Gospel really was.

HossAg said:

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The church I went to never did anything close to this. Membership was open to everyone, and participation was encouraged simply by being loving and welcoming to newcomers. It wouldn't feel genuine to me if I was completing a procedure to be accepted into a church.

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There's very different definitions of membership being used by different parties in this thread.

k2aggie07 said:

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I believe the Scripture says that Christ will make them fishers of men not that they will make themselves that. With all due respect, I believe you are not understanding the power of God and the Holy Spirit.

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Yes, and the traditional understanding is that the fisher of men are the Apostles. We're the fish.

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Amen. And praise God for it.

Gator03 said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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Doesn't the scriptures kind of give a blueprint though?

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Isn't it clear from the New Testament that the early Church is very concerned with correct understanding of God, theological unity and how we are to live as Christians within the Church?

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I don't recall the scripture of what kind of classes and tests to give potential members for them to be able to consider themselves a "member" of your church.

AGC said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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However, are people required to work toward saving others, in order for them to be saved?

Why else would the scriptures say to go forth and spread the word? Why would God need his followers to be "fisher of men"?

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After the last two pages perhaps it's worth establishing where your objections lie. I've tried to summarize the topic.

1. Who is welcome at church?
2. Who can become a Christian?
3. What is the church's responsibility to the new Christian?
4. What is the convert or believer's responsibility?

Am I missing anything big? I mean I feel like everyone's answer would be anyone to 1 and 2. It seems like we're currently litigating 3 and you dislike how I and others responded to 4. Is that a fair summary?

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Not so much.

3 and 4 don't really address exclusion.

dermdoc said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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However, are people required to work toward saving others, in order for them to be saved?

Why else would the scriptures say to go forth and spread the word? Why would God need his followers to be "fisher of men"?

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I believe the Scripture says that Christ will make them fishers of men not that they will make themselves that. With all due respect, I believe you are not understanding the power of God and the Holy Spirit.

And I believe we are called to be witnesses, not converters. That is for other beliefs. Look at Christ's ministry. He only interacted with Jews and said that was His purpose. He did not yell at people. He did not say turn or burn. And if the only purpose of Jesus was to keep people out of "hell", wouldn't you think there would be more of an urgency to his ministry? And that He would have gone to Rome or Greece or large population areas?

Read Paul's sermon on Mars Hill and compare that to most modern evangelical presentations. It seems obvious to me that somewhere "Hell" and being "saved" as a binary event took precedence over what the Gospel really was.

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So hell is just a minor inconvenience, and we have more important matters to address like, making sure someone who has a sexual relationship with someone of the same sex feel shame?

Texaggie7nine said:

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AGC said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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However, are people required to work toward saving others, in order for them to be saved?

Why else would the scriptures say to go forth and spread the word? Why would God need his followers to be "fisher of men"?

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After the last two pages perhaps it's worth establishing where your objections lie. I've tried to summarize the topic.

1. Who is welcome at church?
2. Who can become a Christian?
3. What is the church's responsibility to the new Christian?
4. What is the convert or believer's responsibility?

Am I missing anything big? I mean I feel like everyone's answer would be anyone to 1 and 2. It seems like we're currently litigating 3 and you dislike how I and others responded to 4. Is that a fair summary?

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Not so much.

3 and 4 don't really address exclusion.

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Correct, because they're addressed in 1 and 2. There are right and wrong beliefs about Jesus. There are right and wrong responses to Jesus. Part of the responsibility of the church is to teach these things to new members. The irony of being upset at exclusion over such things is that it places the burden of knowing it all on the sinner before joining.

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I don't recall the scripture of what kind of classes and tests to give potential members for them to be able to consider themselves a "member" of your church.

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The key word here is "member". It's not a country club. Being baptized into Christ is to put on Christ, and to become not a member of an organization but members of one another.

"so we, the many, are one body in Christ; and individually members one of another." Romans 12:5
"we are members of one another" Ephesians 4:25

So let's envision the scenario that this protected "membership" benefits the goal of the church.

Someone who believes something a little different than what the preacher preaches on some small details of the bible, but overall shares the same beliefs, if allowed to be a "member" of that church would damn all of that church to hell if they accepted them.

Otherwise, if it didn't endanger the congregation of damnation, wouldn't inclusion help to grow the church and spread the word?

Texaggie7nine said:

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So let's envision the scenario that this protected "membership" benefits the goal of the church.

Someone who believes something a little different than what the preacher preaches on some small details of the bible, but overall shares the same beliefs, if allowed to be a "member" of that church would damn all of that church to hell if they accepted them.

Otherwise, if it didn't endanger the congregation of damnation, wouldn't inclusion help to grow the church and spread the word?

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So is all this about LGBT stuff?

It could be anything where there might be some differences.

Texaggie7nine said:

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So let's envision the scenario that this protected "membership" benefits the goal of the church.

Someone who believes something a little different than what the preacher preaches on some small details of the bible, but overall shares the same beliefs, if allowed to be a "member" of that church would damn all of that church to hell if they accepted them.

Otherwise, if it didn't endanger the congregation of damnation, wouldn't inclusion help to grow the church and spread the word?

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This already happens at every church. But our discussion spun out of LGBT issues which is not one of those things. Likewise I spoke about fornication and divorce when handling people in the congregation. The Bible, tradition, and church fathers are not silent on that.

Ok so let's take divorcees. If you didn't kick them out (make it uncomfortable for them to stay) then what's the consequences? You go to hell for allowing them to stay or become members?

Texaggie7nine said:

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Ok so let's take divorcees. If you didn't kick them out (make it uncomfortable for them to stay) then what's the consequences? You go to hell for allowing them to stay or become members?

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Isn't it almost meaningless to speak in broad terms like this?

How did the divorce happen? Is the person repentant? Have they confessed their sins?

None of this stuff is overly complicated, but it becomes extremely complicated when 2,000 years of Church history and practice are disregarded for every individual's interpretation of what the Chirch should be.

Ok, how about tell me the scenario where the church goes to hell for accepting them as members.

Texaggie7nine said:

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Ok, how about tell me the scenario where the church goes to hell for accepting them as members.

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Who has said that?

Read Corinthians

I'm asking for the con that outweighs the pro of having more members who can get saved.

Membership is the operative word here. What do you think it means, and how does it impact salvation?