Millennials leaving religion and not coming back

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Marco Esquandolas
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9:31a, 12/12/19
AG
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/millennials-are-leaving-religion-and-not-coming-back/

"As we wrote a few months ago, whether people are religious is increasingly tied to and even driven by their political identities. For years, the Christian conservative movement has warned about a tide of rising secularism, but research has suggested that the strong association between religion and the Republican Party may actually be fueling this divide. And if even more Democrats lose their faith, that will only exacerbate the acrimonious rift between secular liberals and religious conservatives."
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Frok
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9:55a, 12/12/19
AG
So the republicans are to blame for the rising secularism?

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diehard03
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10:00a, 12/12/19
I think someone brought this up on a similar thread, and I think it has merit:

It's not that people are becoming less religious, it's that people are unwilling to identify as being religious when they aren't. There's an erosion of the "middle", one could say.
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Aggrad08
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In reply to Frok • 10:42a, 12/12/19
AG
Frok said:
So the republicans are to blame for the rising secularism?

There are probably more causes for rising secularism than can be counted. But I certainly don't think it helps Christians cause to claim that Christians must be republicans or that being a democrat is an unchristian thing to be. Parties and religious identity weren't always to be tied like we see today and it was a deliberate strategy that has played out over decades.
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one MEEN Ag
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11:04a, 12/12/19
AG
I think its multi factor issue:

-Previously, people who didn't participate in any religious activity would still have declared themselves the denomination they grew up with, nowadays they're just going to saw they aren't religious.
-Christianity in politics is only seen to be concerned with abortion, gay marriage, and the death penalty. The 24 hour news cycle is always railing against how hateful republicans and their christian base is.
-The modern media only portrays christians as hateful republicans. Democrats are in general secular with 'cool, accepting' views.
-The rise of secularism and spiritualism. 'My stuff and my own morality will guide me through this world' is extremely popular in contrast to a 'hate filled, judgemental religion' (exact words I've heard before)


I've had a pastor speak on this topic before and in general his feelings are that this data indicates the lukewarmness of the churches. He could go overseas to an underground church and speak for a whole day about the bible and they would clamor for more. Here in the states if he goes 10 minutes over people are groaning about not missing the lunch church crowd and football kickoff.

Also, if you talk to any waiter the worst groups are the little old church biddies on Sunday lunch. Highly demanding, little to no tip.


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Frok
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In reply to Aggrad08 • 11:27a, 12/12/19
AG
Quote:
But I certainly don't think it helps Christians cause to claim that Christians must be republicans or that being a democrat is an unchristian thing to be.


I don't think many actually claim that as we know we shouldn't be that way. It's just a natural division based on each parties stated views on polarizing issues. I disagree it's one of the big drivers causing secularization.



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Repeat the Line
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In reply to Aggrad08 • 12:09p, 12/12/19
Aggrad08 said:
Frok said:
So the republicans are to blame for the rising secularism?

There are probably more causes for rising secularism than can be counted. But I certainly don't think it helps Christians cause to claim that Christians must be republicans or that being a democrat is an unchristian thing to be. Parties and religious identity weren't always to be tied like we see today and it was a deliberate strategy that has played out over decades.


Betting you have little trouble with the Democratic proclamation of being the "party of science".
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Aggrad08
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In reply to Repeat the Line • 12:12p, 12/12/19
AG
You'd lose that bet. You can't be anti nuclear or anti GMO (this stupidity is split equally among parties) and be pro science. There is no pro science party, it's a shame.
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In reply to Aggrad08 • 12:15p, 12/12/19
Aggrad08 said:
You'd lose that bet. You can't be anti nuclear or anti GMO (this stupidity is split equally among parties) and be pro science. There is no pro science party, it's a shame.


I knew I liked you.
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Marco Esquandolas
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12:54p, 12/12/19
AG
I guess the question is whether anyone cares or wants to do anything about this trend given that all indications are that there won't be any boomerang effect of millennials coming back to religion as they age. I have no idea what I would make of this if I was on Team Religion.
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Frok
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In reply to Marco Esquandolas • 1:02p, 12/12/19
AG
Marco Esquandolas said:
I guess the question is whether anyone cares or wants to do anything about this trend given that all indications are that there won't be any boomerang effect of millennials coming back to religion as they age. I have no idea what I would make of this if I was on Team Religion.


Was listening to an Al Mohler podcast and he talked about that as more and more people no longer believe in any particular religion they start to believe more and more of the pop psychology that comes out daily. He went through one issue of the New York times and mentioned all the strange claims and studies that range all over the spectrum. We become less anchored as we don't have unifying truths across the culture.

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In reply to Marco Esquandolas • 1:04p, 12/12/19
Marco Esquandolas said:
I guess the question is whether anyone cares or wants to do anything about this trend given that all indications are that there won't be any boomerang effect of millennials coming back to religion as they age. I have no idea what I would make of this if I was on Team Religion.


This isn't a surprise. It was expected.
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Serotonin
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1:16p, 12/12/19
AG
Everything goes in cycles. In the last thread like this I posted several articles from the 1920s which highlighted how irreligious society was becoming, especially men and the younger generation.
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Beer Baron
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In reply to Marco Esquandolas • 1:22p, 12/12/19
AG
Marco Esquandolas said:
I guess the question is whether anyone cares or wants to do anything about this trend given that all indications are that there won't be any boomerang effect of millennials coming back to religion as they age. I have no idea what I would make of this if I was on Team Religion.
Another interesting level of it is the children raised by this group. Many millennials and gen-xers had to break with their parents and how they were raised to check the non-religious box, which can be a hard thing to do. These kids won't have to do that. Even living in the liberal hellscape people think Austin is, I only know of one non-religious person in my circle who was actually raised without religion. All the rest were raised going to church regularly, and they're all raising kids who definitely aren't.
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AGC
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In reply to Aggrad08 • 1:58p, 12/12/19
AG
Aggrad08 said:
Frok said:
So the republicans are to blame for the rising secularism?

There are probably more causes for rising secularism than can be counted. But I certainly don't think it helps Christians cause to claim that Christians must be republicans or that being a democrat is an unchristian thing to be. Parties and religious identity weren't always to be tied like we see today and it was a deliberate strategy that has played out over decades.


I'd actually wager this isn't as effective a force as you think. Liberalizing mainlines has had a bigger drain on the pews. Woke churches offer nothing to people. They are social clubs. Many have already hollowed out but don't realize it.
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diehard03
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2:08p, 12/12/19
Quote:
I have no idea what I would make of this if I was on Team Religion.

There's not much to make of it. If you're on Team Religion, then you believe your religion is true...so it doesn't matter if people believe in it or not.
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diehard03
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2:13p, 12/12/19
Quote:
Liberalizing mainlines has had a bigger drain on the pews. Woke churches offer nothing to people. They are social clubs. Many have already hollowed out but don't realize it.

Lol. People are leaving the mainlines because of the hypocrisy of it all. Liberal churches are trying to stem the exodus and simply failing, that's all.
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Beer Baron
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In reply to AGC • 2:37p, 12/12/19
AG

Quote:
Woke churches offer nothing to people.
Yes they do. You even stated what they offer in your very next sentence:


Quote:
They are social clubs.
I'd venture to say the people who go to these "wrong" churches still check the Christian box when asked. Without that half-step between hardline churches and nothing, I think a lot of them would do away with the whole thing altogether.
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Frok
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2:49p, 12/12/19
AG
Quote:

Lol. People are leaving the mainlines because of the hypocrisy of it all


Which is silly because there is always room for one more hypocrite.

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diehard03
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3:01p, 12/12/19
Quote:
Which is silly because there is always room for one more hypocrite.

This mentality only makes sense when you already have a fear/reverence of God.

People are leaving the church because they don't see a need for this based on how they are treated by others.
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P.C. Principal
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In reply to Aggrad08 • 3:02p, 12/12/19
Aggrad08 said:
Frok said:
So the republicans are to blame for the rising secularism?

There are probably more causes for rising secularism than can be counted. But I certainly don't think it helps Christians cause to claim that Christians must be republicans or that being a democrat is an unchristian thing to be. Parties and religious identity weren't always to be tied like we see today and it was a deliberate strategy that has played out over decades.
So in other words, tribalism and identity politics are a huge factor.

I tend to agree, at least in America. Now the Religious Right is closely associated with Trump and Trumpism and the majority of millennials don't identify with that and/or are put off by it. The millennial generation is also the most accepting generation when it comes to things that were once considered "vices" like homosexuality, marijuana, premarital sex.

It's also much easier now than it was before to break out of any "bubble" that someone with a religious background grew up in, thanks to the internet and easier/cheaper means of travel. If you grew up in southern Baptist conservative small town Texas and then go to college and spend some time traveling in Europe (where people aren't near as religious) it changes one's perspective on the world.

Also it's now way less taboo to be nonreligious. One could argue that millennials are no less religious than previous generations, it's just that more are open about it now. "Atheist" is still seen as a "bad word" in some places so some people sugarcoat it with things like "I'm not that religious" or something.
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Frok
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In reply to P.C. Principal • 4:39p, 12/12/19
AG
Therein lies the issue. To me it's the issues and not necessarily how people are treated that causes people to leave.

In modern times being against homosexuality or any sex outside of marriage is now increasingly unacceptable.

Thus if you are someone who attends church for the social benefit you will now disassociate because it is no longer socially beneficial.

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NonReg85
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In reply to Aggrad08 • 7:02p, 12/12/19
AG
Aggrad08 said:
Frok said:
So the republicans are to blame for the rising secularism?

There are probably more causes for rising secularism than can be counted. But I certainly don't think it helps Christians cause to claim that Christians must be republicans or that being a democrat is an unchristian thing to be. Parties and religious identity weren't always to be tied like we see today and it was a deliberate strategy that has played out over decades.


I understand Christian's who are democrats based on social justice beliefs. I disagree with them but do understand them. Supporting the "right" to butcher babies through abortion is irreconcilable with christianity IMO.
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PA24
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7:31p, 12/12/19
AG
I lived overseas from 2015-2018, filled up a passport including the years prior to those. This great fallen away from Christianity is not just an American issue, it is an issue in Europe and Africa. In fact, I would say the USA is the last stronghold of Christianity in developed countries if not the world.

This fallen away is more than just a cycle of events, not like a change of seasons. Actual American churches are closing in record numbers.

A lot of folks believe we are in the last days or the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel. I am one of those.



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Zobel
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In reply to PA24 • 7:37p, 12/12/19
AG
I was in Moscow a few weeks ago. Walking through the city toward red square around 5 pm on a Thursday I passed 5-10 churches. Every single one was having vespers. Every single one was attended - crowded, even. It was beautiful.

In Europe the churches are museums. Not so in Moscow.
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PA24
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In reply to Zobel • 7:43p, 12/12/19
AG
k2aggie07 said:
I was in Moscow a few weeks ago. Walking through the city toward red square around 5 pm on a Thursday I passed 5-10 churches. Every single one was having vespers. Every single one was attended - crowded, even. It was beautiful.

In Europe the churches are museums. Not so in Moscow.
I have never been to Moscow and meant to exclude Russia in my post because I have read/heard what u just stated.

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AgLiving06
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In reply to Beer Baron • 8:00p, 12/12/19
Beer Baron said:

Quote:
Woke churches offer nothing to people.
Yes they do. You even stated what they offer in your very next sentence:


Quote:
They are social clubs.
I'd venture to say the people who go to these "wrong" churches still check the Christian box when asked. Without that half-step between hardline churches and nothing, I think a lot of them would do away with the whole thing altogether.

You may be right to some extent.

However, woke churches are a major issue.

Here's a good example we get to watch.

The Evangelical Lutheran Church of America (ELCA) released a study saying they think they will no longer exist in about 30 years. This is a group that was formed in 1988 and started with over 5 million members and yet has never gained

I was looking for a good article on it and found this one:

Will the ELCA be Gone in 30 years?

It's not a long article, but I did want to highlight this part:

Quote:
The ELCA had over five million members when it was launched in 1988. It has only declined since, and the decline has been accelerating. For all the energy spent on trying to turn things around for the last 40 years, there is little to show. That is because the cultural shifts underpinning this decline are largely beyond our control. To the extent to which we've tried to fix the church, we've failed. I know a lot of really smart, faithful leaders who have poured their lives into this effort. It's not their fault. The forces dismantling the established congregational and denominational system are much bigger. Something deeper is at stake."

This highlights to me the problem with woke churches. They are of a crazy belief that they are "fixing" something instead of realizing they are what's broken and in need of fixing.

The problem they have is their "fixes" have been to become more and more like the regular culture. And when you're the same every other club, the question becomes, do people want to wake up early on a Sunday to go to Church or just simply attend something more convenient to their life. I suspect more and more are finding better options to meet their SJW desires.

Issues etc had a podcast on this recently:

Link: ELCA decline

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one MEEN Ag
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In reply to AgLiving06 • 8:32p, 12/12/19
AG
When you're looking at denominational studies in decline, you exclude the rise of nondenominational churches. Every nondenominational church I've been a part of is majority of members who were previously members of a denomination.

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P.C. Principal
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In reply to PA24 • 9:51p, 12/12/19
Ubitag said:
I lived overseas from 2015-2018, filled up a passport including the years prior to those. This great fallen away from Christianity is not just an American issue, it is an issue in Europe and Africa. In fact, I would say the USA is the last stronghold of Christianity in developed countries if not the world.

This fallen away is more than just a cycle of events, not like a change of seasons. Actual American churches are closing in record numbers.

A lot of folks believe we are in the last days or the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel. I am one of those.



Very few people in Europe are truly religious. In some countries there are lots of people who identify as Catholic but they're hardly religious. I spent a few months in France. Not many religious people there.

However I went to Colombia recently and walked into a church in the middle of a WEEKDAY and it was well-attended. I think Christianity is still pretty big in some Latin American countries
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AGC
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In reply to Beer Baron • 10:23p, 12/12/19
AG
Beer Baron said:

Quote:
Woke churches offer nothing to people.
Yes they do. You even stated what they offer in your very next sentence:


Quote:
They are social clubs.
I'd venture to say the people who go to these "wrong" churches still check the Christian box when asked. Without that half-step between hardline churches and nothing, I think a lot of them would do away with the whole thing altogether.


As AgLiving06 more or less said, why not just sleep in and go to brunch with people who believe the same thing? Fewer rules to follow and more free cash flow. Giving directly to the homeless shelter cuts out a few extra salaries too and you can just read the Bible and pray at home if you want to.

Also let's reflect on the other half of the congregation, the conservative ones. They keep going to church but just find a new home.
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AGC
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In reply to P.C. Principal • 10:25p, 12/12/19
AG
P.C. Principal said:
Ubitag said:
I lived overseas from 2015-2018, filled up a passport including the years prior to those. This great fallen away from Christianity is not just an American issue, it is an issue in Europe and Africa. In fact, I would say the USA is the last stronghold of Christianity in developed countries if not the world.

This fallen away is more than just a cycle of events, not like a change of seasons. Actual American churches are closing in record numbers.

A lot of folks believe we are in the last days or the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel. I am one of those.



Very few people in Europe are truly religious. In some countries there are lots of people who identify as Catholic but they're hardly religious. I spent a few months in France. Not many religious people there.

However I went to Colombia recently and walked into a church in the middle of a WEEKDAY and it was well-attended. I think Christianity is still pretty big in some Latin American countries


The legacy of World War I, along with critical theory among other things. Our perpetual wars no doubt wear down our own resolve and religiosity too.
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PA24
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In reply to P.C. Principal • 6:43a, 12/13/19
AG
P.C. Principal said:
Ubitag said:
I lived overseas from 2015-2018, filled up a passport including the years prior to those. This great fallen away from Christianity is not just an American issue, it is an issue in Europe and Africa. In fact, I would say the USA is the last stronghold of Christianity in developed countries if not the world.

This fallen away is more than just a cycle of events, not like a change of seasons. Actual American churches are closing in record numbers.

A lot of folks believe we are in the last days or the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel. I am one of those.



Very few people in Europe are truly religious. In some countries there are lots of people who identify as Catholic but they're hardly religious. I spent a few months in France. Not many religious people there.

However I went to Colombia recently and walked into a church in the middle of a WEEKDAY and it was well-attended. I think Christianity is still pretty big in some Latin American countries
Lived in the Southern Hemisphere, worked with a lot of Central and South Americans and found Most identify to be catholic by habit more so than by faithfully following the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Before I turned 21, I was physically pulled into spiritual evil and only by the grace of God was my physical body and soul saved.
My faith is strengthened by my experiences with actual good and evil.





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Marco Esquandolas
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9:20a, 12/13/19
AG
So far the attitude I'm picking up is some mixture of "the other denominations besides mine are to blame" and a lot of "f 'em" dismissiveness about the leavers who are being imagined as unserious and shallow.
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bmks270
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9:39a, 12/13/19
AG
I know one who rejected the church as a teen because of the politics and hypocrisy he witnessed.
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Serotonin
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In reply to Marco Esquandolas • 9:41a, 12/13/19
AG
Marco Esquandolas said:
So far the attitude I'm picking up is some mixture of "the other denominations besides mine are to blame" and a lot of "f 'em" dismissiveness about the leavers who are being imagined as unserious and shallow.
The problem is that any social phenomenon becomes an intellectual Rorschach test. So everyone just trots out their pet theory to explain:

Religious left: Hypocrisy on the right.
Religious right: Empty religion on the left.
Secular left: Science, knowledge, and Progress.
Secular right: Decline in family structure and bonds, atomized society.

All of these same discussions were happening in the 1920s.

Why was religion in decline in the 1920s?
  • Acceptance of the theory of evolution?
  • Increasing urbanization and move away from traditional farming communities?
  • Early 20th century immigration exposing people to different religious traditions?
  • Increasing power of women, including right to vote?
  • Progress?
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