This is why I added the last paragraph. I think we should make a distinction between
reason and
experience.
If we look to the classical philosophers you see a pitting of sense perception or experience against reason all the time. I mean, you have people saying that we can show logically change is impossible therefore everything we perceive is wrong. It's an old debate, and a dangerous claim.
On the other hand, I don't see any way beyond experience for us to learn or grow or change. We are blessed with the ability to change, and this implies experience and reaction to experience.
The base claim I reject is that faith requires one to think with rationality. This is not so. I think the fathers might say, faith
enables one to think rationally.
Even further, faith is graced to us, not predicated on our intellectual capacity to reason.
When St Gregory the Theologian debated the philosophers of his day he touched on this very topic, saying:
Quote:
This, then, is our reply to those who would puzzle us; not given willingly indeed - for light talk and contradictions of words are not agreeable to the faithful, and one Adversary is enough for us - but of necessity, for the sake of our assailants - for medicines exist because of diseases - that they may be led to see that they are not all-wise nor invincible in those superfluous arguments which make void the Gospel.
For when we leave off believing, and protect ourselves by mere strength of argument, and destroy the claim which the Spirit has upon our faith by questionings, and then our argument is not strong enough for the importance of the subject - and this must necessarily be the case, since it is put in motion by an organ of so little power as is our mind - what is the result? The weakness of the argument appears to belong to the mystery, and thus elegance of language makes void the Cross, as Paul also thought. (1 Corinthians 1:17) For faith is that which completes our argument.
But may He who proclaims unions and looses those that are bound, and who puts into our minds to solve the knots of their unnatural dogmas, if it may be, change these men and make them faithful instead of rhetoricians, Christians instead of that which they now are called.
Here are some church fathers that may benefit both of us.
Faith, like active prayer, is a grace. For prayer, when activated by love through the power of the Spirit, renders true faith manifest - the faith that reveals the life of Jesus. If, then, you are aware that such faith is not at work within you, that means your faith is dead and lifeless. In fact you should not even speak of yourself as one of the 'faithful' if your faith is merely theoretical and not actualized by the practice of the commandments or by the Spirit. Thus faith must be evidenced by progress in keeping the commandments, or it must be actualized and translucent in what we do. This is confirmed by St. James when he says, 'Show me your faith through your works and I will show you the works that I do through my faith" (cf. Jas. 2:18.)
St. Gregory of Sinai
...all things that are accomplished in the world, even by those who are aliens from the Church, are accomplished by faith.
......there is one kind of faith, the dogmatic, involving an assent of the soul on some particular point...But there is a second kind of faith which is bestowed by Christ as a gift of grace...The faith then which is given of grace from the Spirit is not merely doctrinal, but also works things above man's power.
St Cyril of Jerusalem
A brother questioned Abba Poemen saying, "Give me a word." And he said to him, "The fathers put compunction as the beginning of every action." The brother said again, "Give me another word." The old man replied, "As far as you can, do some manual work so as to be able to give alms, for it is written that alms and faith purify from sin." The brother said, "What is faith?" The old man said, "Faith is to live humbly and to give alms."
The Sayings of the Desert Fathers
Faith is a comprehensive knowledge of the essentials, and knowledge is the strong and sure demonstration of what is received by faith, built upon faith by the Lord's teaching, conveying the soul on to infallibility, science, and comprehension. And, in my view, the first saving change is that from heathenism to faith, and the second, that from faith to knowledge. And the latter terminating in love, thereafter gives the loving to the loved, that which knows to that which is known.
St. Clement of Alexandria
Faith is the beginning of love; the end of love is knowledge of God.
Abba Evagrius, the Philokalia
It is by faith that all things, both human and spiritual are sustained. For without faith neither does the farmer cut his furrow, nor does the merchant commit his life to the raging waves of the sea on a small piece of wood, nor are marriages contracted, nor any other step in life taken.
St. John of Damascus
Let us contemplate with faith the mystery of the divine incarnation and in all simplicity let us simply praise Him who in His great generosity became man for us. For who, relying on the power of rational demonstration, can explain how the conception of the divine Logos took place? How was flesh generated without seed? How was there an engendering without loss of maidenhood? How did a mother after giving birth remain a virgin? How did He who was supremely perfect develop as He grew up? How was He who was pure baptized? How did He who was hungry give sustenance? How did He who was weary impart strength? How did He who suffered dispense healing? How did He who was dying bestow life? And, to put the most important last, how did God become man?...Faith alone can embrace these mysteries, for it is faith that makes real for us things beyond intellect and reason.
St. Maximos the Confessor
There is a knowledge that precedes faith, and there is a knowledge born of faith. Knowledge that precedes faith is natural knowledge; and that which is born of faith is spiritual knowledge. What is natural knowledge? Knowledge is natural that discerns good from evil, and this is also called natural discernment, by which we know to discern good from evil naturally, without being taught. God has implanted this in rational nature, and with teaching it receives growth and assistance; there is no one who does not have it.
St. Isaac the Syrian
Through faith man apprehends all that is invisible and apprehensible by the mind. Faith is a free conviction of the soul as to the truth of what is proclaimed from God.
St. Antony the Great
Sincere faith is the renunciation of your own mind. It is necessary to make your mind naked and present it like a clean chalkboard to faith, so that she can draw herself on it like she is, without any without any admixture of foreign sayings and attitudes. When the mind's own attitudes remain within it, then, after the attitudes of faith are written on it, there appears a mixture of attitudes. The mind will be confused, encountering contradictions between the actions of faith and the sophistries of the mind. Thus are all who approach the region of faith with their own sophistries... They are confused in the faith, and nothing comes of it but harm.
St. Theophan the Recluse
A Christian receives divine wisdom in three ways: by the commandments, teachings, and faith. The commandments free the mind from passions. Teachings lead it to true knowledge of nature. Faith leads to the contemplation of the Holy Trinity.
St. Maximus the Confessor