Faith

Thanks for sharing.

Care to provide a summary of main points, clips that really stuck with you?

Not likely to get much discussion without some points or a synopsis.

Faith requires one to think with rationality. Blended with the supernatural existence of known good and evil, probabilities of living in this world with just the right elements to sustain life in all its forms, and the fact we each had a very limited time to live on this planet brings us to must have faith of a creator which is logical thinking.

Is that creator the God of the Jews?


More to discuss tonight.....

Macarthur said:

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Ubitag said:

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Faith requires one to think with rationality.

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Requires? Really?

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Absolutely.

Our faith is tested by what we see, it is strengthen by our thoughts.
We are constantly tempted, some we can brush off, others sent by the devil can make us question our faith. Only by deep, sincere thought can our prayers be answered and protection given.

This deep thought requires the brain to go thru iterations of physical and supernatural events we have either witnessed or studied. We realize thru mental comparison that our believes are logical per our experiences compared to the other options to chose from.

We arrive at a conclusion of a trust in what we have been taught and by faith alone pray for protection.

This is what I have gotten from the teachings of Dr. Keller.

That's not faith at all. That's just empiricism.

...actual comparison of experiences of the times in my life when I walking with God compared to The times when I was separated from God.
Noticeable differences I can't ignore. Strengthens by faith in times of weakness.

Also
Didn't Jesus use empirical data (Old Testament scriptures) by the prophets to describe who he was.

Old Testament scriptures are not empirical, they are not his own experiences. They're reports of others experiences or actions.

But, what if your life was worse when you followed Christ? What if your standard of better or worse is subject to transient emotion, or some arbitrary understanding?

Faith transcends reason, because God is beyond reason. He's beyond knowing and unknowing, logic or illogic. Our experience with by no means has to be explainable or reasonable. It can be contrary to reason, or completely ineffable. It can be through sense perception, or through a free an in some ways uninformed decision. We can believe what we believe without understanding or even being able to explain it.

One danger of making it this empirical standard is that it is ultimately based on an extremely personal frame of reference. I don't think that is the gospel we see in the scriptures.

St Augustine wrote "Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore, seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand." This seems completely contrary to what you're saying - and St Augustine is hardly an enemy of reason!

Jesus appears throughout the Old Testament in the physical body and u know this.


Jesus said If my faith was the size of a mustard seed, I could move a mountain.......I can't come close......

Reasoning the comparison of evolution vs creation is clearly a thought process. If touch and sight were the only data points of reference, my faith would be even smaller than what it is.

I believe therefore I am saved. My good works can't get me to heaven is true but heaven can't happen without repentance.
Repentance can't happen without intervention of the Holy Spirit which brings forth a complete change n lifestyle. An experience that can be measured.


More after work.

I owe, I owe, it's off to work I go.

Jesus appears physically body before the incarnation?

I think there is a big difference between reasoning to choose between various possible solutions that match the data we have comparatively better or worse and faith in God.

I don't think reason is in opposition to faith; God granted humans the capacity to reason, and St Paul certainly speaks of an understanding of both the existence and the divinity of God that people can arrive to by observation of the created world. But he also clearly shows that this is not faith - "For having known God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking and darkened in their foolish hearts."

He also says that there is a kind of person who is "always learning and never being able to come to a knowledge of truth." St Paul also creates a distinction - though not necessarily a sharp or exclusive one - to knowledge and salvation when he writes that God wants "all men to be saved AND to come to knowledge of truth." In another place he says that a servant of the Lord should gently disciple those who oppose them so that "God may grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth."

It is a very dangerous thing to measure yourself by your own reason, to evaluate yourself this way. We are not our own judges - the judge is the Lord, as St Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 4. In 1 Corinthians 2 St Paul shows that the ability to discern truth rightfully is something that comes after coming to God, because truth is spiritually discerned. Our minds, our understanding, are not static things. We can only see and reason and discern and understand clearly by being "transformed through renewal" (Romans 12:2) which comes "in knowledge according to the image of our Creator" (Col 3:10) and from the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5)

Even further, again, I'm left to wonder - this kind of reasoning is truly ours. We are truly free, we can truly think and reason - again as Romans says, there is no excuse - so if this kind of reasonable, logical action is in our own power, what need do we have of grace? What need of God, if faith is ours to grasp purely by our own deductive power?

And isn't there some kind of risk of delusion? Or of simple mistake? How can we really know anything? Our senses are subject to misinterpretation, simple misunderstanding, or outright deception. And even more frightening, what about people who simply don't reason well? Are they damned? Christ Jesus says the little children - paidan, infants - are our model of faith. Did they reason their way to God? My children didn't, absolutely not. They're cute little muffin heads, about as irrational as they come, but they have faith. I can see it.

To be clear, what you're saying about experience being important and ratifying our choices is extremely good. All Christians should be able to see, experience, understand the work of God in and with us. I do not think that this should be confused with some kind of requirement of reason for faith.

I hadn't spent much mental effort on trying to understand what faith is, and after reading this thread I'm wondering if I have any. Is my faith in my willingness to follow Christ and his church? What if that decision was made empirically?

For example, fasting is a practice that is intended to purify us. I trusted that this at least might be true and tested it out. Turns out that's exactly what fasting does. Did I kill my faith by testing? Or, is my faith in the fact that I trust certain practices to ultimately or eventually purify my soul, because my soul certainly isn't pure right now. Is my faith in the trust that this will move me to a particular end point?

I have to say that without the empirical, experiential element, I wouldn't be in this spot.

This is why I added the last paragraph. I think we should make a distinction between reason and experience.

If we look to the classical philosophers you see a pitting of sense perception or experience against reason all the time. I mean, you have people saying that we can show logically change is impossible therefore everything we perceive is wrong. It's an old debate, and a dangerous claim.

On the other hand, I don't see any way beyond experience for us to learn or grow or change. We are blessed with the ability to change, and this implies experience and reaction to experience.

The base claim I reject is that faith requires one to think with rationality. This is not so. I think the fathers might say, faith enables one to think rationally.

Even further, faith is graced to us, not predicated on our intellectual capacity to reason.

When St Gregory the Theologian debated the philosophers of his day he touched on this very topic, saying:

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This, then, is our reply to those who would puzzle us; not given willingly indeed - for light talk and contradictions of words are not agreeable to the faithful, and one Adversary is enough for us - but of necessity, for the sake of our assailants - for medicines exist because of diseases - that they may be led to see that they are not all-wise nor invincible in those superfluous arguments which make void the Gospel.

For when we leave off believing, and protect ourselves by mere strength of argument, and destroy the claim which the Spirit has upon our faith by questionings, and then our argument is not strong enough for the importance of the subject - and this must necessarily be the case, since it is put in motion by an organ of so little power as is our mind - what is the result? The weakness of the argument appears to belong to the mystery, and thus elegance of language makes void the Cross, as Paul also thought. (1 Corinthians 1:17) For faith is that which completes our argument.

But may He who proclaims unions and looses those that are bound, and who puts into our minds to solve the knots of their unnatural dogmas, if it may be, change these men and make them faithful instead of rhetoricians, Christians instead of that which they now are called.

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Here are some church fathers that may benefit both of us.
Faith, like active prayer, is a grace. For prayer, when activated by love through the power of the Spirit, renders true faith manifest - the faith that reveals the life of Jesus. If, then, you are aware that such faith is not at work within you, that means your faith is dead and lifeless. In fact you should not even speak of yourself as one of the 'faithful' if your faith is merely theoretical and not actualized by the practice of the commandments or by the Spirit. Thus faith must be evidenced by progress in keeping the commandments, or it must be actualized and translucent in what we do. This is confirmed by St. James when he says, 'Show me your faith through your works and I will show you the works that I do through my faith" (cf. Jas. 2:18.)
St. Gregory of Sinai

...all things that are accomplished in the world, even by those who are aliens from the Church, are accomplished by faith.
......there is one kind of faith, the dogmatic, involving an assent of the soul on some particular point...But there is a second kind of faith which is bestowed by Christ as a gift of grace...The faith then which is given of grace from the Spirit is not merely doctrinal, but also works things above man's power.
St Cyril of Jerusalem

A brother questioned Abba Poemen saying, "Give me a word." And he said to him, "The fathers put compunction as the beginning of every action." The brother said again, "Give me another word." The old man replied, "As far as you can, do some manual work so as to be able to give alms, for it is written that alms and faith purify from sin." The brother said, "What is faith?" The old man said, "Faith is to live humbly and to give alms."
The Sayings of the Desert Fathers

Faith is a comprehensive knowledge of the essentials, and knowledge is the strong and sure demonstration of what is received by faith, built upon faith by the Lord's teaching, conveying the soul on to infallibility, science, and comprehension. And, in my view, the first saving change is that from heathenism to faith, and the second, that from faith to knowledge. And the latter terminating in love, thereafter gives the loving to the loved, that which knows to that which is known.
St. Clement of Alexandria

Faith is the beginning of love; the end of love is knowledge of God.
Abba Evagrius, the Philokalia

It is by faith that all things, both human and spiritual are sustained. For without faith neither does the farmer cut his furrow, nor does the merchant commit his life to the raging waves of the sea on a small piece of wood, nor are marriages contracted, nor any other step in life taken.
St. John of Damascus

Let us contemplate with faith the mystery of the divine incarnation and in all simplicity let us simply praise Him who in His great generosity became man for us. For who, relying on the power of rational demonstration, can explain how the conception of the divine Logos took place? How was flesh generated without seed? How was there an engendering without loss of maidenhood? How did a mother after giving birth remain a virgin? How did He who was supremely perfect develop as He grew up? How was He who was pure baptized? How did He who was hungry give sustenance? How did He who was weary impart strength? How did He who suffered dispense healing? How did He who was dying bestow life? And, to put the most important last, how did God become man?...Faith alone can embrace these mysteries, for it is faith that makes real for us things beyond intellect and reason.
St. Maximos the Confessor

There is a knowledge that precedes faith, and there is a knowledge born of faith. Knowledge that precedes faith is natural knowledge; and that which is born of faith is spiritual knowledge. What is natural knowledge? Knowledge is natural that discerns good from evil, and this is also called natural discernment, by which we know to discern good from evil naturally, without being taught. God has implanted this in rational nature, and with teaching it receives growth and assistance; there is no one who does not have it.
St. Isaac the Syrian

Through faith man apprehends all that is invisible and apprehensible by the mind. Faith is a free conviction of the soul as to the truth of what is proclaimed from God.
St. Antony the Great

Sincere faith is the renunciation of your own mind. It is necessary to make your mind naked and present it like a clean chalkboard to faith, so that she can draw herself on it like she is, without any without any admixture of foreign sayings and attitudes. When the mind's own attitudes remain within it, then, after the attitudes of faith are written on it, there appears a mixture of attitudes. The mind will be confused, encountering contradictions between the actions of faith and the sophistries of the mind. Thus are all who approach the region of faith with their own sophistries... They are confused in the faith, and nothing comes of it but harm.
St. Theophan the Recluse

A Christian receives divine wisdom in three ways: by the commandments, teachings, and faith. The commandments free the mind from passions. Teachings lead it to true knowledge of nature. Faith leads to the contemplation of the Holy Trinity.
St. Maximus the Confessor

Faith is not wishful thinking.
Faith is not contrary to reason.
Faith can be small or large.
Faith can be a single moment in time and a lifestyle of decisions.

The most important aspect of faith is not faith itself but the object of faith. Is the object of one's faith strong, reliable, and able to deliver?

Example: I can have all of the faith in the world that when I walk across the thin ice on the river, that I will not be swept away by the current. My faith doesn't save me, the stability of the ice is what saves me. If it fails, I'm swept away regardless of my faith.

If I have a tiny bit of faith and am scared to death at the same time and step upon the ice and it's strong, it's still not my faith that saves me but the object of my faith.

Faith itself is not rational if the object of faith is not trustworthy. Faith in Christ is rational only if He is truly who He claimed to be. Because I believe that Jesus is trustworthy in ways that I am not, and the other options are not, I believe it's wise and rational to put one's faith in Jesus.

For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed."

k2aggie07 said:

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Jesus appears physically body before the incarnation?

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Jesus in the old T


Temporary incarnation brief as they were. Gordon Cromwell U. Explains it better than I can.

I've also been looking for a Luther quote all day and can't find the one I am looking for. I know it is in the commentary on Galatians though.


also, unrelated, the artwork in the video makes me super happy. so much whimsicalness

The entire premise of that article is flawed. That the OT and prophets testify about Him doesn't mean He has to be physically present.

The fact that Jesus is there doesn't mean He is there in the flesh. While I don't deny that He can - God is sovereign - or that many of the cases described (and many not described, like the Angel in the fiery furnace in Daniel) are often taken a the presence of Christ by the Fathers - I don't think any of the cases given say anything about Him being there in the flesh. Seems like personal opinion. Certainly not any thing dogtmatic and I don't recall ever seeing this claim made in the fathers.

It does seem to detract from the incarnation, to trivialize the mystery of the incarnation. So in that ground alone I'll avoid it.

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What makes matters worse is that one-half of ourselves, our own reason, stands against us. The flesh resists the spirit, or as Paul puts it, "The flesh lusteth against the Spirit." Therefore we teach that to know Christ and to believe in Him is no achievement of man, but the gift of God. God alone can create and preserve faith in us. God creates faith in us through the Word. He increases, strengthens and confirms faith in us through His word. Hence the best service that anybody can render God is diligently to hear and read God's Word. On the other hand, nothing is more perilous than to be weary of the Word of God. Thinking he knows enough, a person begins little by little to despise the Word until he has lost Christ and the Gospel altogether.

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Human reason can think only in terms of the Law. It mumbles: "This I have done, this I have not done." But faith looks to Jesus Christ, the Son of God, given into death for the sins of the whole world. To turn one's eyes away from Jesus means to turn them to the Law.

True faith lays hold of Christ and leans on Him alone. Our opponents cannot understand this. In their blindness they cast away the precious pearl, Christ, and hang onto their stubborn works. They have no idea what faith is. How can they teach faith to others?

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Our opponents regard faith as an easy thing, but I know from personal experience how hard it is to believe. That the Holy Ghost is received by faith, is quickly said, but not so quickly done.

All believers experience this difficulty. They would gladly embrace the Word with a full faith, but the flesh deters them. You see, our reason always thinks it is too easy and cheap to have righteousness, the Holy Spirit, and life everlasting by the mere hearing of the Gospel.

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To believe in God as Abraham did is to be right with God because faith honors God. Faith says to God: "I believe what you say." When we pay attention to reason, God seems to propose impossible matters in the Christian Creed. To reason it seems absurd that Christ should offer His body and blood in the Lord's Supper; that Baptism should be the washing of regeneration; that the dead shall rise; that Christ the Son of God was conceived in the womb of the Virgin Mary, etc. Reason shouts that all this is preposterous. Are you surprised that reason thinks little of faith? Reason thinks it ludicrous that faith should be the foremost service any person can render unto God.
Let your faith supplant reason. Abraham mastered reason by faith in the Word of God. Not as though reason ever yields meekly. It put up a fight against the faith of Abraham. Reason protested that it was absurd to think that Sarah who was ninety years old and barren by nature, should give birth to a son. But faith won the victory and routed reason, that ugly beast and enemy of God. Everyone who by faith slays reason, the world's biggest monster, renders God a real service, a better service than the religions of all races and all the drudgery of meritorious monks can render.

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edit:
Pastor Kachelmeier did a whole series of podcasts on Christ in the OT that was terrific btw.
https://issuesetc.org/tag/christ-in-the-old-testament/

Christmas
someone needs to start a Christmas song thread.

Tis is the season!

I spent the last week trying to understand these statements. Some of those quotes seem closer to defining faith as a form of conviction about the truth of a thought. Some of them seem to treat it more like a mystery. I read that Vladimir Lossky defines faith similarly to the nous and calls it "participatory adherence." I think I like the last two quoted the most. I'm understanding St. Theophan as something like, in order to be in communion with what is, we cannot bring pre-conceptions about what is with us. This is related to an intuition (or maybe experiential knowledge) I've been having that when my active mind becomes aware that something is happening, it screws everything up. There's some sort of weird paradox where I somehow have to do without active doing. Things must be "allowed" to happen and can't be forced. That kind of sounds like faith?

Kinda sounds like Laozi, haha.

St Cyril's quote is good because the context of it is a catechetical lecture - it's meant to be a teaching statement. And he says clearly, there's two kinds. One is a conviction about something being real, but the other is a kind of grace.

The first is rational, having belief in something. I have faith that when I sit in this chair it won't break. The second is an active synergistic thing, which is grace changing how we see, perceive, think, understand, and act. It is interesting that both are made apparent by action.

The first is both predicated on, and leads to, rational knowledge - a feedback loop, like Quine's posits. In this we have an experimentalist's mind from birth, where we try new things and create predictive models based on our experience. This leads us to new experiments, which lead to more knowledge-as-models. This is to some extent within our power and to some extent unavoidable... as soon as we begin life we start this process, and it never ends. But we also have agency in choosing our experiments and in how we interpret our models.

The second I think also leads to knowledge, but instead it is knowledge that is beyond reason or perception, because it leads to knowledge of God through participation in Him. This is not in our power, we have no agency to begin this process. We can resist it, but we cannot cause or further it.

Perhaps its rational experience -> belief, while grace experience -> spiritual (un-rational) knowledge.

That's why I think St Theophan is saying we need to renounce our (rational) mind. To not do so is to mix the two concepts above and to say rational experience -> spiritual knowledge. This is a mistake.

Now obviously the two can impinge. God can use the first kind of knowledge to bring a person to a position to the second. But He is by no means obligated to do so, and I there's no guarantee whatever that engaging in this kind of approach will ever lead one to God.

Had to look him up, Chinese philosopher dude. I do see and read themes of that nature talking about an opposition between some sort of active mind-awareness and the happening of the experience itself. I forget the monk's name, but he says that the mental evaluation of the experience is the building up of an idol in the mind. I'm aware that I'm going beyond the "plain nature" of the words to try and make sense of these things. I guess I just put things in terms that I can understand. For example, what you've described as a working model of the world that involves predictions can be understood in terms of psychology of meaning.