Uuuuuuuuuuuuhuhhh
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Last: 4 yr ago by Texaggie7nine
Seems legit!
Maybe that was when Mond threw the interception and he got the update.
7nine
Probably checking the bank balance after brainwashing a bunch of old folks to send in their social security checks.
Saul Goodman from Better Call Saul would make a great preacher like that.zephyr88 said:
Probably checking the bank balance after brainwashing a bunch of old folks to send in their social security checks.
7nine
Charismatic churches infuriate me. I believe they are fooling people on a path to eternal damnation.
I know I would want to worship a god that would damn people to eternal torture for simply being fooled.Aggies1322 said:
Charismatic churches infuriate me. I believe they are fooling people on a path to eternal damnation.
7nine
Texaggie7nine said:I know I would want to worship a god that would damn people to eternal torture for simply being fooled.Aggies1322 said:
Charismatic churches infuriate me. I believe they are fooling people on a path to eternal damnation.
That's my personal belief/fear.. I have no idea how God treats that situation. Dont let my possible misunderstanding harden your heart to our God.
Aggies1322 said:Texaggie7nine said:I know I would want to worship a god that would damn people to eternal torture for simply being fooled.Aggies1322 said:
Charismatic churches infuriate me. I believe they are fooling people on a path to eternal damnation.
That's my personal belief/fear.. I have no idea how God treats that situation. Dont let my possible misunderstanding harden your heart to our God.
Near as I can tell, there's quite a bit of debate around the mechanics of all that, but the foolers are typically presumed to be worse off than the fooled.
chimpanzee said:Aggies1322 said:Texaggie7nine said:I know I would want to worship a god that would damn people to eternal torture for simply being fooled.Aggies1322 said:
Charismatic churches infuriate me. I believe they are fooling people on a path to eternal damnation.
That's my personal belief/fear.. I have no idea how God treats that situation. Dont let my possible misunderstanding harden your heart to our God.
Near as I can tell, there's quite a bit of debate around the mechanics of all that, but the foolers are typically presumed to be worse off than the fooled.
No doubt those who lead souls astray, will be judged accordingly.
So ultimately, it's not God's fault for sending those people to suffer for all of eternity for being fooled. It's just the fault of the evil people who fooled them.
Just like it's not the abusive husbands fault for beating his wife. It the fault of whoever tricked her into disobeying him.
Just like it's not the abusive husbands fault for beating his wife. It the fault of whoever tricked her into disobeying him.
7nine
Texaggie7nine said:
So ultimately, it's not God's fault for sending those people to suffer for all of eternity for being fooled. It's just the fault of the evil people who fooled them.
Just like it's not the abusive husbands fault for beating his wife. It the fault of whoever tricked her into disobeying him.
God doesn't force us to sin. Sin is the fault of man. God gave us His law and His son so that we could dwell with him for eternity. All He asks of us is to have faith in His son. God is perfect. He must punish those who have broken the law. He would be unjust otherwise. And if those people are being fooled it is likely because they are not immersed in the Word, otherwise I believe they would see through that. So it is the fault of dishonest "Christian" (really apostates) leaders who are lying, but also they have fault of their own for not knowing the Word which is available to them.
Quote:
Husband doesn't force wife to disobey him. Disobedience is the fault of the wife. Husband gave his wife his rules so that his wife could dwell with him in happiness all her life. All he asks of her is to have faith in him. The husband is perfect. He must punish his wife if she disobeys. He would be unjust otherwise. And if his wife is being fooled it is likely because she was not focused on her man, otherwise I believe she would see through that. So it is the fault of the wife's dishonest friends who are lying, but also the wife has fault of her own for not knowing the rules which was set forth by her loving husband.
7nine
Texaggie7nine said:Quote:
Husband doesn't force wife to disobey him. Disobedience is the fault of the wife. Husband gave his wife his rules so that his wife could dwell with him in happiness all her life. All he asks of her is to have faith in him. The husband is perfect. He must punish his wife if she disobeys. He would be unjust otherwise. And if his wife is being fooled it is likely because she was not focused on her man, otherwise I believe she would see through that. So it is the fault of the wife's dishonest friends who are lying, but also the wife has fault of her own for not knowing the rules which was set forth by her loving husband.
What is it you're trying to prove by changing what I said and destroying its meaning?
To look at what you say you believe to be the character of god, if you truly believe His is a god of love, and how contradictory that is.
If you say all you need is faith in Jesus, well this preacher's followers have faith in Jesus do they not? So how is he fooling them into damnation?
If you say all you need is faith in Jesus, well this preacher's followers have faith in Jesus do they not? So how is he fooling them into damnation?
7nine
Texaggie7nine said:
To look at what you say you believe to be the character of god, if you truly believe His is a god of love, and how contradictory that is.
If you say all you need is faith in Jesus, well this preacher's followers have faith in Jesus do they not? So how is he fooling them into damnation?
What a wonderful question. I do indeed believe at least some of them have faith in Christ. I cannot speak on their salvation. It is just my fear that this wolf in sheeps clothing is leading people astray.
I believe that anyone who wants to be in the presence of God for eternity will be.
God will not force anyone to be in his presence who does not want to be.
Where those will be, some call hell.
God will not force anyone to be in his presence who does not want to be.
Where those will be, some call hell.
People of integrity expect to be believed, when they're not, they let time prove them right.
No...There is not one word in the NT where God must punish those who have broken the law to maintain His justice. This makes God subservient to Justice, as if Justice is higher than God and constrains Him.Quote:
God doesn't force us to sin. Sin is the fault of man. God gave us His law and His son so that we could dwell with him for eternity. All He asks of us is to have faith in His son. God is perfect. He must punish those who have broken the law. He would be unjust otherwise. And if those people are being fooled it is likely because they are not immersed in the Word, otherwise I believe they would see through that. So it is the fault of dishonest "Christian" (really apostates) leaders who are lying, but also they have fault of their own for not knowing the Word which is available to them.
The closest to punishment we get is vindication, ekdikesis which simple means out+judge. But that's simply judgment, not punishment. There's no NT teaching that talks about some kind of punishment, or vicarious punishment, or punishment required for satisfaction of something, or that punishment is necessary.
k2aggie07 said:No...There is not one word in the NT where God must punish those who have broken the law to maintain His justice. This makes God subservient to Justice, as if Justice is higher than God and constrains Him.Quote:
God doesn't force us to sin. Sin is the fault of man. God gave us His law and His son so that we could dwell with him for eternity. All He asks of us is to have faith in His son. God is perfect. He must punish those who have broken the law. He would be unjust otherwise. And if those people are being fooled it is likely because they are not immersed in the Word, otherwise I believe they would see through that. So it is the fault of dishonest "Christian" (really apostates) leaders who are lying, but also they have fault of their own for not knowing the Word which is available to them.
The closest to punishment we get is vindication, ekdikesis which simple means out+judge. But that's simply judgment, not punishment. There's no NT teaching that talks about some kind of punishment, or vicarious punishment, or punishment required for satisfaction of something, or that punishment is necessary.
No but the Word of God says He is a just God. He does give justice to those who refuse His word. No?
Edit- otherwise, His law wouldn't matter anymore. But it does. As mentioned in the new testament. If you break God's law, God will give justice--as He is a just God.
If you punish your child for disobeying you.. Do you consider it justice because they suffer for daring to not obey you? Or is it simply a means of correcting their behavior?
Where do you think you get this concept of "justice is suffering".
Where do you think you get this concept of "justice is suffering".
7nine
He is Just yes. And all authority and judgment is given to the Son by the Father. What does Jesus say? "I judge no one."Quote:
No but the Word of God says He is a just God. He does give justice to those who refuse His word. No?
Edit- otherwise, His law wouldn't matter anymore. But it does. As mentioned in the new testament. If you break God's law, God will give justice--as He is a just God.
His judgment is perfectly merciful and His mercy is perfectly just. Everyone breaks God's law, but God doesn't say "and so as per justice I will kill you." He says, if you break the law, you will die. The wages of sin are death, not the punishment meted out by God. Sin kills because it breaks communion with the Creator, not because the Creator reacts by killing.
The verdict prescribed by God for the sins of man is for His own Son to not only become Man, the form of a slave, but to become sin for us. That's about the farthest thing from punishment I can think of.
k2aggie07 said:He is Just yes. And all authority and judgment is given to the Son by the Father. What does Jesus say? "I judge no one."Quote:
No but the Word of God says He is a just God. He does give justice to those who refuse His word. No?
Edit- otherwise, His law wouldn't matter anymore. But it does. As mentioned in the new testament. If you break God's law, God will give justice--as He is a just God.
His judgment is perfectly merciful and His mercy is perfectly just. Everyone breaks God's law, but God doesn't say "and so as per justice I will kill you." He says, if you break the law, you will die. The wages of sin are death, not the punishment meted out by God. Sin kills because it breaks communion with the Creator, not because the Creator reacts by killing.
The verdict prescribed by God for the sins of man is for His own Son to not only become Man, the form of a slave, but to become sin for us. That's about the farthest thing from punishment I can think of.
So like I said. If you die without knowing the Son. You will be given justice. Which is Hell. If you know the Son, your sentence will have been served by the Son. Therefore, God grants you mercy and everlasting life. That doesnt mean I'm not guilty, just that my debt has been paid. Those who do not know the Son, will be found guilty and will not have their debt paid. Correct or incorrect?
Texaggie7nine said:
To look at what you say you believe to be the character of god, if you truly believe His is a god of love, and how contradictory that is.
If you say all you need is faith in Jesus, well this preacher's followers have faith in Jesus do they not? So how is he fooling them into damnation?
This is the part, as a non-believer, that alway makes me scratch my head.
I had a similar reaction earlier in the week to a FB post I saw. It was a meme that said, "Sometimes God sends angles in diguise as a child with Special Needs to teach me to be a better person."
I thought my head was going to explode. And worst of all, a guy I grew up with that had a severely disabled child, chimed in and agreed with the sentiment.
So let me get this straight...you are so self absorbed to think God send this precious baby into the world with horrific challenges that most of us can't even imagine, just so you can be less of an a-hole? I don't even know where to put that.
I don't really have an issue with that sentiment as a non believer.
I wouldn't see it as them saying God crippled the child so that they could learn to be a better person.
I see it more as, that special needs child could only ever exist in that way. If it were a healthy child without the defects, it would have been a different sperm cell or egg cell and an altogether different child.
So for me, it comes down to. would that special needs child rather exist as they do, or not ever exist at all?
So if they would want to still exist, why not exist in a way that helps others?
I wouldn't see it as them saying God crippled the child so that they could learn to be a better person.
I see it more as, that special needs child could only ever exist in that way. If it were a healthy child without the defects, it would have been a different sperm cell or egg cell and an altogether different child.
So for me, it comes down to. would that special needs child rather exist as they do, or not ever exist at all?
So if they would want to still exist, why not exist in a way that helps others?
7nine
No, that is not what the scriptures say at all.Quote:
So like I said. If you die without knowing the Son. You will be given justice. Which is Hell. If you know the Son, your justice will have been served by the Son. Therefore, God grants you mercy. That doesnt mean I'm not guilty, just that my debt has been paid. Those who do not know the Son, will be found guilty and will not have their debt paid. Correct or incorrect?
Everyone is given justice. The judgment is a simple judgment of truth. Jesus says - even if you reject Him, He doesn't judge you because He didn't come to judge but to save. The truth itself (His words) are the judgment.
The word "hell" doesn't exist in the NT either. Justice is the light of God, it is Truth, which is Jesus Christ. Both the righteous and sinners receive either refreshment or the penalty of destruction from the face of the Lord, from the existence and presence of Jesus Christ.
God grants everyone mercy, He became sin for all - He is the savior of all men, especially those who believe. This is what the scripture says.
The Son does not "serve" for you. He is not a replacement for you, He is not punished for you. This substitution language is utterly foreign to the NT. Go look for it, you will not find it. He is not punished, because He is righteous. That would be the height of injustice! He instead becomes sin, and expiates, consumes, destroys sin in His righteousness.
The judgment is simple: all have sinned, all are guilty of sin, therefore all will die. But great and merciful action of a loving God is to execute the judgment of mercy, to save all by dying for them.
k2aggie07 said:No, that is not what the scriptures say at all.Quote:
So like I said. If you die without knowing the Son. You will be given justice. Which is Hell. If you know the Son, your justice will have been served by the Son. Therefore, God grants you mercy. That doesnt mean I'm not guilty, just that my debt has been paid. Those who do not know the Son, will be found guilty and will not have their debt paid. Correct or incorrect?
Everyone is given justice. The judgment is a simple judgment of truth. Jesus says - even if you reject Him, He doesn't judge you because He didn't come to judge but to save. The truth itself (His words) are the judgment.
The word "hell" doesn't exist in the NT either. Justice is the light of God, it is Truth, which is Jesus Christ. Both the righteous and sinners receive either refreshment or the penalty of destruction from the face of the Lord, from the existence and presence of Jesus Christ.
God grants everyone mercy, He became sin for all - He is the savior of all men, especially those who believe. This is what the scripture says.
The Son does not "serve" for you. He is not a replacement for you, He is not punished for you. This substitution language is utterly foreign to the NT. Go look for it, you will not find it. He is not punished, because He is righteous. That would be the height of injustice! He instead becomes sin, and expiates, consumes, destroys sin in His righteousness.
The judgment is simple: all have sinned, all are guilty of sin, therefore all will die. But great and merciful action of a loving God is to execute the judgment of mercy, to save all by dying for them.
So do those who dont believe go to hell?
What do the scriptures say? What is hell?Quote:
So do those who dont believe go to hell?
k2aggie07 said:What do the scriptures say? What is hell?Quote:
So do those who dont believe go to hell?
https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/406-use-of-hell-in-the-new-testament-the
Texaggie7nine said:
I don't really have an issue with that sentiment as a non believer.
I wouldn't see it as them saying God crippled the child so that they could learn to be a better person.
I see it more as, that special needs child could only ever exist in that way. If it were a healthy child without the defects, it would have been a different sperm cell or egg cell and an altogether different child.
So for me, it comes down to. would that special needs child rather exist as they do, or not ever exist at all?
So if they would want to still exist, why not exist in a way that helps others?
I read this as you are intertwining your rationale with theirs and I think that's where you misread it.
The way you explain it with the Child only being able to exist as they are, I believe, is not how many of those folks view it. I think they view our existence as 100% controlled by God, so Yes, I think many do think God puts things in thier lives specifically for their benefit.
I've seen too many examples. I think you're giving way too much benefit of the doubt.
Right.
Hades is the same a sheol, it is the realm of the dead, or the condition of being dead.
Gehenna is an actual place use as a metaphor for the afterlife by Jesus Christ.
Tartarus is a place of punishment for demons particularly in the only place it is used.
So? What do you think? What do the scriptures say about nonbelievers "going" to one of those "places"?
Hades is the same a sheol, it is the realm of the dead, or the condition of being dead.
Gehenna is an actual place use as a metaphor for the afterlife by Jesus Christ.
Tartarus is a place of punishment for demons particularly in the only place it is used.
So? What do you think? What do the scriptures say about nonbelievers "going" to one of those "places"?
k2aggie07 said:
Right.
Hades is the same a sheol, it is the realm of the dead, or the condition of being dead.
Gehenna is an actual place use as a metaphor for the afterlife by Jesus Christ.
Tartarus is a place of punishment for demons particularly in the only place it is used.
So? What do you think? What do the scriptures say about nonbelievers "going" to one of those "places"?
Does it not say that those who dont believe will go to Gehenna?
There are many believers that see it that way, but I don't hold it against them really. I don't see it as a selfish outlook. As with all religions, many people use the beliefs as ways to comfort themselves and help them deal with reality of life.Macarthur said:Texaggie7nine said:
I don't really have an issue with that sentiment as a non believer.
I wouldn't see it as them saying God crippled the child so that they could learn to be a better person.
I see it more as, that special needs child could only ever exist in that way. If it were a healthy child without the defects, it would have been a different sperm cell or egg cell and an altogether different child.
So for me, it comes down to. would that special needs child rather exist as they do, or not ever exist at all?
So if they would want to still exist, why not exist in a way that helps others?
I read this as you are intertwining your rationale with theirs and I think that's where you misread it.
The way you explain it with the Child only being able to exist as they are, I believe, is not how many of those folks view it. I think they view our existence as 100% controlled by God, so Yes, I think many do think God puts things in thier lives specifically for their benefit.
I've seen too many examples. I think you're giving way too much benefit of the doubt.
Back as a believer, when I lost a job out of nowhere I really liked because of downsizing I was so upset, until I convinced myself that it was because it was part of God's plan, and that He knew I was going to be better off without it. Only because of that was I able to handle the emotion of it at the time.
I will not begrudge those with special needs children for trying to find good out of their situation.
7nine
Gehenna is a metaphor, unless you think that all those folks are going to be crammed outside of Jerusalem forever?
Look, the picture painted by the scriptures is that hell and heaven are the same place - the presence of God. In the end, God will be all in all. As Jesus says, He Himself is the judgment, His love and truth are the judgment. He doesn't judge us, we are judged by His word. Awareness of this love and rejection of it is the torment. God is the fire, and that fire is joy or agony. But none of this is about punishment. Punishment without end, punishment without end is punitive, sadistic. God chastises - in love, says the scripture - but never punishes.
Look, the picture painted by the scriptures is that hell and heaven are the same place - the presence of God. In the end, God will be all in all. As Jesus says, He Himself is the judgment, His love and truth are the judgment. He doesn't judge us, we are judged by His word. Awareness of this love and rejection of it is the torment. God is the fire, and that fire is joy or agony. But none of this is about punishment. Punishment without end, punishment without end is punitive, sadistic. God chastises - in love, says the scripture - but never punishes.
Macarthur said:Texaggie7nine said:
To look at what you say you believe to be the character of god, if you truly believe His is a god of love, and how contradictory that is.
If you say all you need is faith in Jesus, well this preacher's followers have faith in Jesus do they not? So how is he fooling them into damnation?
This is the part, as a non-believer, that alway makes me scratch my head.
I had a similar reaction earlier in the week to a FB post I saw. It was a meme that said, "Sometimes God sends angles in diguise as a child with Special Needs to teach me to be a better person."
I thought my head was going to explode. And worst of all, a guy I grew up with that had a severely disabled child, chimed in and agreed with the sentiment.
So let me get this straight...you are so self absorbed to think God send this precious baby into the world with horrific challenges that most of us can't even imagine, just so you can be less of an a-hole? I don't even know where to put that.
For me, its the cognitive dissonance that goes into trying to simultaneously believe ideas like 'everything happens for a reason' and that God is Just with the idea that God punishes those for being born a certain way, being fooled or being born in the wrong part of the world where the wrong religion is the norm. This obviously doesn't apply to all Christians or religious people.
Aggies1322 talked about being afraid of someone leading people astray. Why worry about that? Worrying about it suggests that you fear your God is one who would punish someone for being a product of the external forces and pressures of their lives. And if God is Just, then it is justice to see someone punished for being, in part, a product of their environment. I don't see how you square up the idea that God will punish you for being fooled by a preacher with 'God is love'.
Ultimately, I think I just get heartburn when people tell talk about this stuff as though they know these things for a fact. K2, I think, rightfully took issue with that statement about how God 'must' punish those who break His law. If there is a God that is as powerful as we're told He is. . . . how bout we not make statements about what He 'must' do. Seems to me that this God is well beyond our understanding.
Aggies1322 said:
Charismatic churches infuriate me. I believe they are fooling people on a path to eternal damnation.
To hell you say...
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