Salvation

3,153 Views | 45 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by DirtDiver
Serotonin
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AG
Here is Mark Twain's recollection of visit to Mar Saba Monastery in Palestine:
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They wear a coarse robe, an ugly, brimless stove-pipe of a hat and go without shoes. They eat nothing whatever but bread and salt; they drink nothing but water. As long as they live they can never go outside the walls, or look upon a woman for no woman is permitted to enter Mars Saba, upon any pretext whatsoever. Some of those men have been shut up there for thirty years. In all that dreary time they have not heard the laughter of a child or the blessed voice of a woman; they have seen no human tears, no human smiles; they have known no human joys, no wholesome human sorrows. In their hearts are no memories of the past, in their brains no dreams of the future.
He repeatedly notes that they are dead.

I think this echoes what swimmer is saying above.

But then Mr Twain starts to reflect on his initial impressions and realizes that he might have missed something important (note, it is an Orthodox monastery although Twain refers to them as Catholic):

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They knew we were foreigners and Protestants, and not likely to feel admiration or much friendliness toward them. But their large charity was above considering such things. They simply saw in us men who were hungry, and thirsty, and tired, and that was sufficient. They opened their doors and gave us welcome. They asked no questions, and they made no self-righteous display of their hospipitality. They fished for no compliments. They moved quietly about, setting the table for us, making the beds, and bringing water to wash in, and paid no heed when we said it was wrong for them to do that when we had men whose business it was to perform such offices...

When we got up to breakfast in the morning, we were new men. For all this hospitality no strict charge was made. We could give something if we chose; we need give nothing, if we were poor or if we were stingy. The pauper and the miser are as free as any in the Catholic Convents of Palestine. I have been educated to enmity toward every thing that is Catholic, and sometimes, in consequence of this, I find it much easier to discover Catholic faults than Catholic merits. But there is one thing I feel no disposition to overlook, and no disposition to forget: and that is, the honest gratitude I and all pilgrims owe, to the Convent Fathers in Palestine. Their doors are always open, and there is always a welcome for any worthy man who comes, whether he comes in rags or clad in purple. The Catholic Convents are a priceless blessing to the poor. A pilgrim without money, whether he be a Protestant or a Catholic, can travel the length and breadth of Palestine, and in the midst of her desert wastes find wholesome food and a clean bed every night, in these buildings. Pilgrims in better circumstances are often stricken down by the sun and the fevers of the country, and then their saving refuge is the Convent. Without these hospitable retreats, travel in Palestine would be a pleasure which none but the strongest men could dare to undertake. Our party, pilgrims and all, will always be ready and always willing, to touch glasses and drink health, prosperity and long life to the Convent Fathers of Palestine.
dermdoc
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AG
We will agree to disagree. I do not think we are all supposed to be monks and completely withdraw from this life. Actually, that sounds great a lot of the time. But I think I am called to be in this world and try to fulfill God's purpose for me there.
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Zobel
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dermdoc said:

We will agree to disagree. I do not think we are all supposed to be monks and completely withdraw from this life. Actually, that sounds great a lot of the time. But I think I am called to be in this world and try to fulfill God's purpose for me there.

Where did I advocate to be a monk or withdraw from life??
dermdoc
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k2aggie07 said:

dermdoc said:

We will agree to disagree. I do not think we are all supposed to be monks and completely withdraw from this life. Actually, that sounds great a lot of the time. But I think I am called to be in this world and try to fulfill God's purpose for me there.

Where did I advocate to be a monk or withdraw from life??
I think we are not communicating well. I agree with everything you are saying and just took your explanation the wrong way. Sorry.
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FTACo88-FDT24dad
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21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?' 23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.'

Matthew 7:21-23 | NABRE
dermdoc
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AG
XUSCR said:

21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?' 23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.'

Matthew 7:21-23 | NABRE
Agree. I am not the one to judge when a person is doing the will of God or not as meant for that individual.

Romans 10:13
Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
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AgLiving06
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Quote:

The hero's of the reformation while doing great work has a little more doctrine to iron out. Hashing this out is almost as difficult as explaining the Trinity. We have 2 things that are true and it's almost impossible to determine where one ends and the other begins.

1. God saves us and the work is complete. True Titus 3:5 above
2. He saves us through the vehicle of faith. Also True:

Notice the use of the word believe in these verses.
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

What you say here is not what you had above. This gets to the Lutheran/Reformation viewpoint of salvation, which does differ from Rome.

I agree with you that God saves and only God saves.

Where things start to get dicey is when people say "when we trust/believe in Him...." and it needs to be clear.

Our trust/belief in Him did nothing. It's not a synergistic act. We are saved because of God and He alone justifies us.

A better way to say is that once we stop resisting Him, we are on the path to salvation.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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dermdoc said:

XUSCR said:

21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?' 23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.'

Matthew 7:21-23 | NABRE
Agree. I am not the one to judge when a person is doing the will of God or not as meant for that individual.

Romans 10:13
Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
"... will be saved." Not "is saved once and for always regardless of what they do."
dermdoc
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AG
XUSCR said:

dermdoc said:

XUSCR said:

21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?' 23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.'

Matthew 7:21-23 | NABRE
Agree. I am not the one to judge when a person is doing the will of God or not as meant for that individual.

Romans 10:13
Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
"... will be saved." Not "is saved once and for always regardless of what they do."
Just curious, why do you seem to want folks not to be saved? I know that I am not one to judge due to my own shortcomings.
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Zobel
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It's not about not wanting people to be saved. And, I don't think it's even about saying who is in and who is out, certainly not on an individual level.

I think it's more about affirming two things. That God saves, and God alone; and that a person who believes in Jesus Christ remains in Him and does the work (activity) of Him.

The "not yet" aspect is important. Perseverance, running til the end, reaching, repentance, humility, obedience are all fundamental to Christianity. It's not loving to tell half the story - we have to do nothing and indeed can do nothing - without the other half - that once we believe there's nothing that's held back.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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dermdoc said:

XUSCR said:

dermdoc said:

XUSCR said:

21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?' 23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.'

Matthew 7:21-23 | NABRE
Agree. I am not the one to judge when a person is doing the will of God or not as meant for that individual.

Romans 10:13
Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
"... will be saved." Not "is saved once and for always regardless of what they do."
Just curious, why do you seem to want folks not to be saved? I know that I am not one to judge due to my own shortcomings.


Derm, it's not that I don't want people to be saved. I wish everyone was/is/will be saved, but I don't think that's what Scripture or the Church teaches us.

k2's post immediately above is a very good answer to the question. I think final salvation is the result of a process that begins with baptism, is sustained by the Sacraments and is attained by perseverance in running the race to the end.

My faith is that I was saved, I am saved and I will be saved. But the race isn't over until it's over. I require Divine Mercy, grace and constant forgiveness and repentance along the way as I workout my salvation in fear and trembling, trying, with God's help, to become the person he created me to be.
DirtDiver
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Quote:

But I have questions - you talk about rewards, special rewards, richer experience of life. What reward can there be but God?

The rewards which he specifically mentions for obedience. Notice how this specific verse proves everything that I've been saying. There's a difference between the 1 time moment of faith in which God declares a person righteous, and the rewards for obedience/discipleship/building upon the foundation of Christ.

11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. 1 Cor. 3

An Imperishable Crown For leading a disciplined life 1 Cor. 9:25
A Crown of Rejoicing For evangelism and discipleship 1 Thess. 2:19
A Crown of Righteousness For loving the Lord's appearing 2 Tim. 4:8
A Crown of Life For enduring trials James 1:12; Rev. 2:10
A Crown of Glory For shepherding God's flock faithfully 1 Pet. 5:4
But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal; Matt 6:20
Hebrews 11 better resurrection for suffering.
Jesus mentions your name before the Father and Angels for overcomming Rev


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But, you clearly didn't read the OP. He literally goes into a discussion about what we're saved from and what we're saved for, and how they're different and why it matters.

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I would even suggest let's strike once and for all from our life this question: what do I need to do to be saved? The answer is: everything and nothing. because there's nothing I can do to be saved if God doesn't save me. But once God saves me, then I have to do the works that he does, and that means I can never rest assured of my salvation.

Here's were I disagree. What do I need to do for my justification/salvation meaning eternal life/saved from hell? Trust in Jesus alone. There are no works to merit this.

He cannot rest assured of his salvation but I can because the work is finished, the debt is paid in full, and it was applied to my account when I trusted/believed/accepted Jesus death and resurrection alone. I'm assured because of the promises of God:

What happens at the 1 time moment of faith?

  • "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. John 5:24
  • 3 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvationhaving also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory. Eph 1.
  • Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. Romans 5


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You cannot know Christ, follow Christ, even believe in Christ without doing the works He does.
List the works the Christ did and which ones you are not able to do and haven't done.


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Just curious, using your terms. Do you think everyone was justified on the cross?
Justification = legally declared righteous. Justification is available to all but not all are justified. Justification occurs at the moment of faith in Him.


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It's amazing to me how even people who read the gospel and epistles every day want to object to Christ's words. They're very clear. Take the story of the rich young man and put whatever you want in the place of the money. How many go away sad when Christ says leave it and follow me!
It's just taking Christ words in the immediate context of the page, chapter, entire book and the rest of the Bible. You will find the words of eternal life almost non-existent in Matt, Mark, and Luke, but John is dedicated to the topic and the key word is believe.

The rich young ruler believed he was righteous in his own eyes through his own obedience. Jesus' questions informed the rich young man of His true identity, and exposed the man of His own sin. When confronted with sin we either embrace the only solution Jesus or reject Him. Jesus was not saying, hey everybody, the only way to get to heaven is to sell all of your possessions. This would disagree with the rest of scripture.


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I agree with you that God saves and only God saves.
Where things start to get dicey is when people say "when we trust/believe in Him...." and it needs to be clear.
Our trust/belief in Him did nothing. It's not a synergistic act. We are saved because of God and He alone justifies us


God saves us but not apart from faith. It's not an "either" "or" discussion between God saves us or our faith saves us. It's a "both" "and" observation. God saves us through the process of faith and that faith is a gift. Where one begins and the other ends is just as much mystery as where the deity of Jesus and the humanity of Jesus intersect.

We see God gets the credit for salvation over and over however we also see man get the condemnation for un belief as well.

2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Romans 4
18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
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