Salvation

3,090 Views | 45 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by DirtDiver
Zobel
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
This was a podcast that took a surprising turn around halfway in that I really really enjoyed. It's probably the most coherent / concise explanation of how the orthodox view salvation I know of.

Enjoy.
https://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/namesofjesus/jesus_the_savior
americathegreat1492
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Have you seen this? It's not super concise but is pretty funny in it's dorkiness.




Great podcast episode. His point is something I've been doing intuitively. I think that to be so concerned with one's salvation makes one incapable of doing something that must happen, the death of your self. That self and it's state (saved or not) must always exist in order to be evaluated if one is so concerned with salvation. If it dies, it cannot serve as a reference point anymore.
Zobel
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Here's a somewhat trimmed down / edited version of the second half:


Quote:

We must avoid this abominable preoccupation with salvation.

There are many Christians who are hardly interested in God at all. They're really not interested in Christ. They're not interested in life. They're not interested in the beauty of creation. They're not interested in their fellow man and their neighbor. They're not really interested in just about anything except salvation. Translated, meaning: how to get to go to heaven when you die.

The faith is not about salvation in that sense. It's not like figuring out "what do you got to do to be saved minimally" like Do you have to go to church or don't you? Do you have to believe in Jesus or don't you? Do you have to participate in sacraments, or don't you? Do you have to be in some particular church and not another or don't you? Do you have to be in communion with the bishop of Rome who is the Pope or don't you?

It is an abomination, almost a blasphemy, even to be interested, if not obsessed, with the issue of salvation and start trying to figure out who's saved and who's not and telling who's saved and who isn't saved, and why it's so. Real authentic Christians should never, ever, ever get involved in that kind of thing. Never. That is my deepest conviction, and I'm sharing it with you now. It's not according to Jesus. It's not according to Christ. It's not according to Scripture.

It's not about some kind of minimal standards or rules that if we fulfill them externally, we get to go to heaven. And it's very interesting that many Christians who claim to be saved by faith alone and not by works, they're still very interested in what works you need to do to be saved.

I would even suggest let's strike once and for all from our life this question: what do I need to do to be saved? The answer is: everything and nothing. because there's nothing I can do to be saved if God doesn't save me. But once God saves me, then I have to do the works that he does, and that means I can never rest assured of my salvation. Oh yes, I can say and I must say the gospel of God in Jesus Christ is that we are all saved. I'm saved, you're saved. Joseph Stalin is saved. Osama bin Laden is saved. Whoever you want to think of is saved, as far as God is concerned. And then the question is, do we accept that salvation? Do we live by that salvation?


Here the teaching of Scripture and the saints would be that nobody could claim to do it. Nobody is righteous, no, not one, even after baptism. And we're always sinners saying God be merciful to me, a sinner. We're always saying, I am not worthy, I am not worthy. I am not deserving. Certainly I am not deserving of the grace of the Holy Spirit, and the fire of God, and the broken body and the spilled blood of Jesus. I am not worthy of salvation. It's a gift. But once I realize that there is that gift, then I have to take that gift, and I have to repent every time I don't take it. I have to repent every time I neglect it, forget it, and worse, that I would just refuse it and live by my own standards and my own life.


But what is [the faith]? What is? What is, is that there is God. Beautiful, marvelous, magnificent, splendid, glorious God Almighty. And his only begotten Son Jesus Christ, born of a virgin on earth, the all-holy, life-creating Spirit that proceeds from God, dwells in the Son, is breathed upon us. There's life, there's world, there's reality; there is truth. There is peace. There is joy. There is the fruit of the Holy Spirit. There is God himself. And what we have to realize is that we've got to be interested in the God who saves us, not in salvation as such. We've got to be interested in loving God, not salvation. God. Life is about God. The Bible is about God. Church is about God. Sacraments are about God and being about God there about Christ, and about Christ there, about crucifixion and resurrection and glorification and humility and love and mercy and meekness.

It's about the grace of God coming in us and being manifested for our salvation. The grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all people. God desires all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the Church. God is the Savior of all human beings, especially those who believe. So, our confession has to be that God, in Christ, has already, on the Cross, saved everyone and everything. That's the gospel. And that's what we have to be thrilled about. That's what we have to confess. That's what we have to live by.

To understand salvation and to receive salvation, you have to understand and receive and love God. And therefore, we are saved for loving God, glorifying God, praising God with every breath, more than we breathe the holy fathers say. We are saved for work. We are saved for activity. We are saved for rejoicing in one another. We are saved for serving each other.

We are saved for repenting, in fact. We can only repent because we're saved, because that salvation is always available to us. For as often as we sin, when we get up again, that very salvation once and for all accomplished on the cross by God with his son Jesus, God our Savior, and Christ our Savior, that allows me to repent. That's one of the elements of salvation, the ability to repent daily. We are saved to be by grace everything that God in Christ is by nature. That's what we're saved for.


And so a person who knows that, that person is no longer interested or obsessed in salvation as such. They are totally devoted to God as the Savior, to Christ who is the Savior, to the eternal life to the gifts of the Holy Spirit and the fire into which they are baptized into which they are saved by the Savior Jesus, by his broken body and spilled blood. They're not looking around, figuring out salvation. In fact, a saved person who is not interested paradoxically in salvation anymore at all, a saved person is not trying to figure anything out. A saved person is just praying to be illumined by God to testify to the fact that we are saved, that salvation is here, eternal life is here. Joy is here. Peace is here. God is with us, that everything has been redeemed, saved, delivered, protected, purified. To be saved is to be in that reality, and even more modestly, to want to be in that reality. To struggle to be in that reality, to confess with tears that we are not in that reality, and to confess that we have no claim on salvation. We cannot name anything, we can't claim anything.

And we certainly cannot dare to claim, there's my place in heaven, made for me because I accept Jesus as my Savior. Because the question would be, do you really accept Jesus as your Savior? Then your works will show it. That's the teaching of Holy Scripture. Your deeds will show it. What do you do? Oh, no. We come before the face of God always as penitents and sinners until he comes again in glory, and we say, "Save me, O Lord." And what we will see is that the content of salvation is the outpouring of the divine mercy, the divine love upon us, and we bask in that as our salvation. And to the measure that we are in that, to that measure we are saved. But it isn't over until it's over.

We presume nothing, while at the same time we confess that everyone and everything in all of creation has been saved by God in the blood of Jesus. It's our task to receive that salvation and to re-receive it, take it again, and again, and again, every moment of every day with every breath to be again loving God and loving our neighbor and trying to keep the commandments. And if we do that, then God will save us if he wishes, and he will know how.

So every day we say to the Lord, Lord have mercy, Lord save me, Lord be with me. And then we say Lord let me be worthy of your great salvation. Lord, let me be an instrument of your salvation, your love, your truth, your reconciliation, your victory over death and the devil to every single person around me. And when I fail in that, oh Lord, have mercy on me, and I know that you will. Why? Because you have saved me, and you have saved everyone and everything.

UTExan
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Quote:

And so a person who knows that, that person is no longer interested or obsessed in salvation as such.
That is an interesting take.

How do you think the speaker would treat Philippians 2:12 ?



Quote:

Therefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Zobel
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
No quibble whatsoever. He says salvation as such, meaning, going around looking for whatever things you must do to be saved. What St Paul is describing is exactly the attitude Fr Tom is advocating.
UTExan
How long do you want to ignore this user?
k2aggie07 said:

No quibble whatsoever. He says salvation as such, meaning, going around looking for whatever things you must do to be saved. What St Paul is describing is exactly the attitude Fr Tom is advocating.
So then we can look to Acts 16 for efficacy:

Quote:

27 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled. 28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do yourself no harm: for we are all here. 29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved, and your house. 32 And they spoke to him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
Zobel
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Yeah, you don't seem to be getting the point. No one is doubting or questioning the efficacy of the salvation of God.

For one, it says, "you will be saved". It doesn't say "you will have been saved". That's the beginning of the story, not the end. Salvation is spoken of in past, present, and future tense in the NT. St Paul even says we won't be saved until the judgment in Romans. Look, even the first verse you quoted seems to be at odds with the efficacy argument you are saying now. And for two, Fr Tom isn't talking to a pagan convert. He's talking to Christians. In that regard, the Philippians verse is more relevant, I think.

What must I do to be saved is nothing and everything. Nothing because there's absolutely nothing anyone can do to be saved; only God saves. And everything because being saved we live our entire life to Christ without limit, exception, qualification, or reservation.

I have very little interest in jumping into a debate about the mechanics of salvation when literally the point of the post is that debating the mechanics of salvation, particularly to the eye of what are the minimum requirements, is a terrible way to understand and approach the Christian faith.
UTExan
How long do you want to ignore this user?
k2aggie07 said:

-----
What must I do to be saved is nothing and everything. Nothing because there's absolutely nothing anyone can do to be saved; only God saves. And everything because being saved we live our entire life to Christ without limit, exception, qualification, or reservation.

I have very little interest in jumping into a debate about the mechanics of salvation when literally the point of the post is that debating the mechanics of salvation, particularly to the eye of what are the minimum requirements, is a terrible way to understand and approach the Christian faith.
I have no desire to engage in such a debate, either. But I must respectfully state that salvation IS an issue with most Christians not just because we need assurance of our relationship with God, but also because we need to be assured of a future fellowship with Him. Since we are the bride of Christ, like any spouse, we need to be assured of a future and the Word of God does speak to this concern with wonderful promises and assurances.
Redstone
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
It is essential to always remember that the Word of God is a Person - the Logos Incarnate.

Salvation is theosis to Logos. Suffering is a means to unite to Christ.
Zobel
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG

Quote:

I have no desire to engage in such a debate, either. But I must respectfully state that salvation IS an issue with most Christians not just because we need assurance of our relationship with God, but also because we need to be assured of a future fellowship with Him. Since we are the bride of Christ, like any spouse, we need to be assured of a future and the Word of God does speak to this concern with wonderful promises and assurances.
Salvation is an issue with most Christians because most Christians have been told by their own denomination and others that it is an issue. That if you believe X you are saved. If you go to Y church you are saved. If you do Z you are saved. Else you're not. That it is an issue I agree, that it should be one, that it is healthy that it is one, I do not agree.

And again, you're completely missing the point. You want to talk about spouses, that's a great example. It's actually part of what I edited out of the original transcript. If you are a spouse who is never home, who approaches marriage as a complete minimalist, yeah, you probably worry about your spouse. If you say, how many hours do I have to spend with my spouse to be in good standing? For my marriage to count or be effective, how many nights a week do I have to spend at home? Do I have to buy my spouse a gift or show them affection? If so, how much? And then maybe you go and talk to a lawyer or a marriage counselor to get their opinion. Would it be any surprise if you doubted your spouse or the health or your marriage?

On the other hand, if you devoted your entire life to a relationship with them - if every waking moment, every breath and even more than every breath was spent in service, in love, in communion with that person, why would you ask someone else if you loved your spouse or if your spouse loved you? Why would you ask someone else if you were really married? Why would you go and argue with someone about it, or tell them how many hours you spent and therefore it was real? St Paul says as much - "Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you-- unless indeed you fail the test?"

We don't need assurances from the bible. We aren't saved by the bible. You want assurances, examine your own conscience, pray to God and ask for mercy. And remember, then, that God has saved everyone and everything, and have the joy and peace in your heart. Everything else is temptation.
UTExan
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Quote:

We don't need assurances from the bible.
That, friend, is probably the essence of our differences, and my last word on this topic.
Zobel
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
The bible doesn't save you, can't save you, and nowhere in the bible does it say otherwise.

Our assurance and our guarantees do not come from the bible. The scriptures are only words, but the words convey truth. They are not the truth, they witness to the truth. Grace and truth come through Jesus Christ (John 1:17) - and I would say, only through Jesus Christ.

Our assurance is in faith (Hebrews 10:22, 11:1) and in the knowledge of the resurrection (Acts 17:31) and in love which brings understanding (Colossians 2:2). If we continue in His Word, we will know the truth (John 8:31-32).

Even the Lord teaches us the same, telling the Sadducees "you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God." Certainly they knew the words, but they still didn't know.
DirtDiver
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Salvation -

Justification - Jesus saved us when we trust/believe in Him namely His death and resurrection for our sins. Happens at one point in time. Once saved always saved takes place at this moment and the Holy Spirit is given as a deposit guaranteeing our redemption.
Sanctification - the process in which God is conforming the believer into the image of His Son. Present tense. The believe who participates or 'walks by the Spirit' is saved from loss of reward, broken fellowship, shaming the name by which they are saved.
Glorification - when the believer is saved from a body capable of sin. Future tense.

Discipleship - not a part of salvation. If a person wants to live a life of discipleship to Jesus it will cost them everything as they take up their cross and follow Jesus.

The number 1 reason for so many denominations is because good hearted people do not see the distinction between justification and sanctification. They mix our effort to live a Godly life with the finished and complete work of Jesus.

Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand
PacifistAg
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG

Quote:

we need to be assured of a future and the Word of God does speak to this concern with wonderful promises and assurances.
Jesus is the Word. The "word" (scriptures) are an icon of the "Word" (Christ). I think it's a dangerous trend to bestow a name for our Savior onto something that isn't Him, that can easily lead to idolatry.
Zobel
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I feel like you completely missed the point or didn't read.

And discipleship is not optional, nor is it separate from salvation. This is the whole issue. By trying to cut and splice salvation into these little boxes and then it into process you are forced to make pronouncements that frankly don't make any sense and certainly are not supported by either the faith or the scriptures.
Lepanto
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I appreciate the holistic nature of the Orthodox view of salvation and theosis. I'm Catholic but think their view makes a lot more sense, wish we were all one Church so I wouldn't have to worry about it.

Until then pray, pray, pray.
ramblin_ag02
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I think the quote is pretty spot-on. Preoccupation with your own personal salvation is inherently selfish. Every act of charity and worship becomes some calculated to increase our own personal benefit. That is no more noble when it pertains to the next life instead of the current one. Yet another reason I abhor the teachings regarding Hell. Converting to avoid suffering is an understandable but still selfish motive.

The emphasis is still in the wrong place. In Christianity our focus should be either God or other people. Those are the greatest 2 commandments after all. Our goal should be to become so focused on loving God and others that our own fortunes in this life or the next become unimportant. That may be beyond any of us, but I think it is the ideal
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
AgLiving06
How long do you want to ignore this user?
DirtDiver said:

Salvation -

Justification - Jesus saved us when we trust/believe in Him namely His death and resurrection for our sins. Happens at one point in time. Once saved always saved takes place at this moment and the Holy Spirit is given as a deposit guaranteeing our redemption.

I don't think this is the right view of justification, at least not one that holds to the reformation.

Justification has nothing to do with us.

We are justified because of Jesus and His sacrifice have covered our sins.

Our belief or disbelief is worthless if the above isn't true. The act of believing is meaningless if that's not true.



swimmerbabe11
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Right at the turn, some of the characterizations of Christians "not caring" about the Christian life is pretty unfair.


His inflection on the word "Savior" and his Russian impression is cracking me up.

Then he says plenty of things that I can't disagree with.

The "how much time do I *have to spend with my wife* is juxtaposed in an interesting way to "people who believe in faith alone still seem concerned with how much/how little they need to do to remain in good standing. We would say "don't you delight in pleasing the people you love? Just so, you must do good works because that is what you do for people that you love." We strive to be good children, good spouses, good people..not to earn affection, but because we enjoy making our loved ones happy. Just so, since we love God..then we do good works and strive to be better.

People have a natural selfish interest in their own survival.. it would be silly to think that we wouldn't be preoccupied with avoiding damnation.. and if that is sinful, I feel like one could argue that it is evidence of original sin.

Confidence in your salvation is a statement of faith. Confidence in Christ's sacrifice meant for us. Confidence in God's mercy and grace. Our faith saves us and makes us whole. Our faith gives us the ability to love God and focus on Him, because we trust that He has and will do what is needed and if I die now or 80 years from now, I pray I never outlive my faith and confidence in His mercy.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Bibliodolatry is (or should be) a thing ...
PabloSerna
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Lepanto said:

I appreciate the holistic nature of the Orthodox view of salvation and theosis. I'm Catholic but think their view makes a lot more sense, wish we were all one Church so I wouldn't have to worry about it.

Until then pray, pray, pray.
How is this any different? I'm Catholic as well and thought it was a great example of the mercy and love of God for each of us.
DirtDiver
How long do you want to ignore this user?
k2aggie07 said:

I feel like you completely missed the point or didn't read.

And discipleship is not optional, nor is it separate from salvation. This is the whole issue.

24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. 25 For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Matthew 16

If one only read Matthew 16 and we were missing the rest of the entire Bible, then one may be able to agree with your statement. Living a life in which one sacrifices all that they have to following God to the ends of the earth in the face of suffering is not how one punches their ticket into heaven. Jesus died needless if this is how one is saved.

Does Jesus want all saved believers to be disciples? Absolutely.
Is the life of discipleship required for Justification? Never.
Will there be Christians in heaven who due to false teaching, given into fleshly desires, or fear of persecution abandon their lives of discipleship? Yes. A majority of the NT was written to such believers laying out the benefits, motivations, and consequences for failing to do so and eternal life is never at stake.

Justification in the eyes of God has always been and is only by faith in Him. A one point in time transaction in which God saves a person at the moment of their faith.


Quote:

By trying to cut and splice salvation into these little boxes and then it into process you are forced to make pronouncements that frankly don't make any sense and certainly are not supported by either the faith or the scriptures
I respectfully and whole heartedly disagree as scripture directs us to do exactly the opposite of what you have just claimed.

Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Tim. 2:15

We must do this with the word "save, saved, salvation" in the NT. Whenever we see this word it could refer to salvation from sins - Justification, Sanctification, Glorification, salvation from our enemies, physical death, loss of reward. False doctrine and application arise from false interpretation and this is the number one topic which people get wrong due to them not accurately diving the word.

Jesus did all of the work required for our salvation (eternal life). It is finished. It's applied to our account through faith alone in Christ alone which is the only way this verse can make sense...

Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

It's impossible to be saved and say your saved if a continuous life of discipleship is required. All one can do is hope their effort is enough only to find out in the end that their effort had nothing to do with what Jesus has done for them.


Quote:

I don't think this is the right view of justification, at least not one that holds to the reformation.
Justification has nothing to do with us.
We are justified because of Jesus and His sacrifice have covered our sins.
Our belief or disbelief is worthless if the above isn't true. The act of believing is meaningless if that's not true.
The hero's of the reformation while doing great work has a little more doctrine to iron out. Hashing this out is almost as difficult as explaining the Trinity. We have 2 things that are true and it's almost impossible to determine where one ends and the other begins.

1. God saves us and the work is complete. True Titus 3:5 above
2. He saves us through the vehicle of faith. Also True:

Notice the use of the word believe in these verses.
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."


americathegreat1492
How long do you want to ignore this user?
If all that is required is to "believe", how then are we to interpret what Jesus says in other parts of the gospel?

Matthew 10

34 "Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36 and a man's foes will be those of his own household. 37 He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and he who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for my sake will find it.


Luke 9

23 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. 24 For whoever would save his life will lose it; and whoever loses his life for my sake, he will save it.


John 12

3 And Jesus answered them, "The hour has come for the Son of man to be glorified. 24 Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. 25 He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.


How is simple belief any different than just trying to save one's life? The Gospels and Epistles frequently use language describing utter rejection of your own life and speak of your death. These are not simple metaphors or things meant only for those who want to be saved and also follow Jesus. There are no half measures. To find God you must die. To use language that fits to a more current time, the you that you think you are (but actually aren't) must die. It is as Father Thomas and K2 have said. Your salvation requires everything and nothing, because nothing is possible apart from God. It is a paradox the discursive mind is incapable of grasping.
DirtDiver
How long do you want to ignore this user?

Quote:

If all that is required is to "believe", how then are we to interpret what Jesus says in other parts of the gospel?
This is the perfect question to ask in light of what I mentioned before. I want to clarify 1 point specifically. Believing has an object. The object of belief for us today is: 1 believing that we are sinners, trusting/believing/accepting Jesus death alone for payment of those sins. 3 believing that He rose from the dead. It's not just intellectual affirming of the historical facts but the personal acceptance of Jesus.


Quote:

34 "Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36 and a man's foes will be those of his own household. 37 He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and he who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for my sake will find it.

If this is talking about justification/eternal life we are all screwed. No one is worthy of what Jesus went through on our behalves. Secondly that specifically speaks to those losing their physical lives for His sake. This would mean that every Christian that isn't dying a martyrs death is hosed as well. 3rd and most importantly: If a persons objective of faith is their own following or obedience to Jesus then this is a works based salvation. I'm not saved because of my obedience to Jesus. I'm saved because He died and rose again for me.

Salvaton/Eternal life/ Justification is a free gift and costs us nothing.
If we live a life of discipleship, it will cost us everything and this faithfulness will be rewarded with specials honors.


Quote:

23 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. 24 For whoever would save his life will lose it; and whoever loses his life for my sake, he will save it.

Interpretive option 1: If you do not deny yourself daily you are not saved. Salvation then has nothing to do with what Jesus did but is now based upon our failure or success at denying ourselves, taking up our crosses daily (no vacation) and following Jesus. We must also lose our lives for His sake. Is this a martys death?
Interpretive option 2: If a believer wants to follow Jesus well it will come with consequences (bearing a daily cross). Chosing to live this life will be rewarded.

Is 'saved' talking about saved from hell, saved from physical death, saved from spiritual death, saved from a useless life.


Quote:

3 And Jesus answered them, "The hour has come for the Son of man to be glorified. 24 Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. 25 He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

When the word Eternal life is used in the NT, we must look at it's context deeply. Is it referring to eternal life given at the point of salvation (most common usage) or eternal life as a reward? When used as a reward, it's always in the future verb tense and based upon an action. It speaks to a richer experience of life than that given at regeneration.

The use of 'eternal life' can interpreters to forget that the context is discipleship which is based upon works and not regeneration which is based upon faith alone.

Quote:


How is simple belief any different than just trying to save one's life? The Gospels and Epistles frequently use language describing utter rejection of your own life and speak of your death. These are not simple metaphors or things meant only for those who want to be saved and also follow Jesus. There are no half measures. To find God you must die. To use language that fits to a more current time, the you that you think you are (but actually aren't) must die. It is as Father Thomas and K2 have said. Your salvation requires everything and nothing, because nothing is possible apart from God. It is a paradox the discursive mind is incapable of grasping.
And this is where I would say Father Thomas gets it wrong. He's not able to distinguish between the free gift of God by faith alone and discipleship which will cost us everything because he sees the word 'saved' and his default position is that the word must mean saved from hell in every context.

A concordance study will show that becoming a Christian and becoming a disciple are not synonymous terms
John 8:30 As He spoke these things, many came to believe in Him. 31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;

To say that every Christian is a disciple seems to contradict the teaching of the NT. In fact, one could be a disciple without being a Christian at all. John describes men who were disciples and then placed their faith in Christ. (Jn. 2:11). Judas was called a disciple, but he was apparently not saved. (Jn. 12:4). This alone alerts us that Jesus did not equate being a disciple with being a Christian. Conversely a man could be a Christian and not a disciple.

To have God's viewpoint towards sin and to look to the Jesus alone for my forgiveness honors Him and is by faith alone. Hating one's father and mother is not how this forgiveness is applied to my account.

According to the New Testament, what is true of a person the moment they believe?


Zobel
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
This entire discussion is so interesting to me because it illuminates precisely the divide Fr Tom is talking about. You want to cut salvation up into a process. I don't think its sustainable, you just end up falling into a myriad of interpretative problems.

But I have questions - you talk about rewards, special rewards, richer experience of life. What reward can there be but God?

Do you see the insidious nature of this entire conversation? What is life about? What is heaven about? What is the true, ultimate meaning of life for a creature, for a human being? Anything other than God is nothing, it is all waste, it is all passing and garbage compared with God. What is being saved? Being saved for God, being saved into oneness, communion, fellowship with God.

Any discussion about a salvation which is anything other than friendship with God, communion with God, is wrong. Everything spoken of in the scriptures - particularly eternal life - is a consequences of that communion, and cannot healthily be viewed separated from it. As the scriptures say, He is our salvation. Over and over again.

Quote:

And this is where I would say Father Thomas gets it wrong. He's not able to distinguish between the free gift of God by faith alone and discipleship which will cost us everything because he sees the word 'saved' and his default position is that the word must mean saved from hell in every context.
Haha! Man this actually made me laugh out loud. Fr Tom was the dean of St Vladimir's seminary, for starters. The hubris is shocking.

But, you clearly didn't read the OP. He literally goes into a discussion about what we're saved from and what we're saved for, and how they're different and why it matters.

///

I think you badly miss the mark with John 8:30. In fact, you get it almost perfectly backwards. What Christ Jesus says is not, "great, now that you believe, you get to try to be a disciple in addition". No, no. What he says, is if -- if -- you continue in my word, then you will be shown to be those who learn from me. Disciple is mathetes, a learner. The "Truly" before disciple is from alethes, shown to be, what is revealed, an undeniable reality when something is tested. The plain reading here is: If you continue in His wordy, then you will shown to be actually a learner. The distinction is not between a follower and a non-follower but a true follower and a false one. That's what alethes means.

You cannot know Christ, follow Christ, even believe in Christ without doing the works He does. On this point, the scriptures are quite clear. You want to look at it as causative, i.e., I hate father and mother then I get to go to heaven. No. It's quite the opposite - I have accepted grace, have chosen to love God above everything, even my own life, and therefore by comparison I hate and reject anything in my life which would separate me from Him or compromise my relationship with Him. As St Paul says, I count it all as loss. It's consequence, not causative. So again, it's everything and nothing; nothing, because there's no salvation that isn't a complete and utter grace and gift, there's nothing we can do to save ourselves. We deserve none of it. And everything, because being saved our entire life and being and purpose is reoriented and focused solely on God.
Zobel
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Just curious, using your terms. Do you think everyone was justified on the cross?
swimmerbabe11
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Quote:

What is the true, ultimate meaning of life for a creature, for a human being? Anything other than God is nothing, it is all waste, it is all passing and garbage compared with God.

This is an ungrateful attitude towards the blessings of this life. It doesn't and it shouldn't all be gruel, John Piper.
A thousand things could have been done to this earth when the first couple was thrown out of Eden, at the tower of Babel, after the flood... yet God ordained to make the world beautiful, to gjve us sunsets, to make puppies adorable and loyal, to give us rice pudding, to give us steak and butter and chocolate...and yes, there are also durians..but God doesn't tell us that the whole world is durian and we should treat it as such. We should fear and love God so that we honor him in all things, giving thanks and praise for the life and vocations and gifts that this world can offer in the short time that we have it.
Zobel
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Yes, and nothing that is good exists apart from God. Nothing material can be loved, used, appreciated correctly apart from God. That's the whole point, not that creation is bad (it's not) but that the human being's purpose is to be in communion with creation through God.

Who would call God gruel? And who would say that a person devoting their lives to God comes what may would be receiving anything other than the best things the Father would give them? That's why Christians have joy and can rejoice in all things, can say glory to God for all things.
swimmerbabe11
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Gruel is a reference to a Matthew Pierce joke
Zobel
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Not saying gruel vs feast. Saying choose God vs anything and everything else. The Christian counts all as loss for the surpassing worth of knowing God.
dermdoc
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
swimmerbabe11 said:

Quote:

What is the true, ultimate meaning of life for a creature, for a human being? Anything other than God is nothing, it is all waste, it is all passing and garbage compared with God.

This is an ungrateful attitude towards the blessings of this life. It doesn't and it shouldn't all be gruel, John Piper.
A thousand things could have been done to this earth when the first couple was thrown out of Eden, at the tower of Babel, after the flood... yet God ordained to make the world beautiful, to gjve us sunsets, to make puppies adorable and loyal, to give us rice pudding, to give us steak and butter and chocolate...and yes, there are also durians..but God doesn't tell us that the whole world is durian and we should treat it as such. We should fear and love God so that we honor him in all things, giving thanks and praise for the life and vocations and gifts that this world can offer in the short time that we have it.
Amen. Maybe I am a Lutheran and don't know it.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
dermdoc
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
swimmerbabe11 said:

Gruel is a reference to a Matthew Pierce joke

And John Piper is not the only one who thinks that.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Zobel
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
It's amazing to me how even people who read the gospel and epistles every day want to object to Christ's words. They're very clear. Take the story of the rich young man and put whatever you want in the place of the money. How many go away sad when Christ says leave it and follow me!

You can't love God and mammon, you can't love God and this world.

It's a hard teaching, yes. Every part of us wants to find a loophole. But it is very, very clear, and very, very simple. There is no halfway. And the amazing thing is as we fail and struggle there is grace and joy. The load is light.

That's the gospel: everything and nothing is required to be saved.
dermdoc
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I think we are saying that there is a difference between loving temporal things over God and enjoying God's gifts in this life while still loving God the most. Or at least that is how I see it. I think some Christians think it is a sin to have fun and enjoy life. I am not in that camp.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Zobel
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
dermdoc said:

I think we are saying that there is a difference between loving temporal things over God and enjoying God's gifts in this life while still loving God the most. Or at least that is how I see it.

You don't stay in the world and just love God the most. You cannot enjoy God's gifts in this life without dying to the world. You die, then you live. If you want to save your life, you lose it. If you lose it - and not just lose it for pride or arrogance or a misguided attempt to save your self - but lose it for His sake, you find it.

There's no halfway. Nothing on earth is ours, and everything is God's. You give it all to Him, even your life, and He returns what is good for you, for your salvation, in abundance. It's not loving God the most, it's loving God only, serving Him only.
Page 1 of 2
 
×
subscribe Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.