Ben Shapiro interviews John MacArthur: Judiasm and Christianity
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Last: 4 yr ago by dermdoc
Ben is way over his head and clearly has no idea what is in the Old Testament.
JM is one of the best preachers if not the best.
His sermons are direct and to the point and backed by scripture.
I listen to him every evening and wish everyone did.
He believe the signs of the end times are not for the church as the church will be raptured, these end time signs are for the ones left behind.
JM is one of the best preachers if not the best.
His sermons are direct and to the point and backed by scripture.
I listen to him every evening and wish everyone did.
He believe the signs of the end times are not for the church as the church will be raptured, these end time signs are for the ones left behind.
Did not watch because MacArthur bothers me with his lordship salvation theology. And I am not a Calvinist.
And you might Google SGM survivors for a closer look inside churches like Macarthur's.
And you might Google SGM survivors for a closer look inside churches like Macarthur's.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
I like MacArthur and I don't necessarily disagree with lordship salvation. But my problem with this concept is this idea that anything I do is good. I can easily get busy doing good works simply to prove to myself, to god, or to others that I am indeed a saved believer. I'm not sure how good all of that really is. Because often we will go to poor places, serve, feel great about ourselves and then go home and not say a word to our neighbors who live right next to us.
It also doesn't leave much room for those struggling with faith.
A disagreement but overall I like MacArthur and consider his views important on many issues.
It also doesn't leave much room for those struggling with faith.
A disagreement but overall I like MacArthur and consider his views important on many issues.
Fair enough. It just seems to me that the Lordship salvation guys set their own rules and it becomes the church of MacArthur or whomever rather than worshipping Christ. It is probably just me.
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They certainly don't set their own rules. I would say the mega churches with fluffy self-help sermons are much more guilty of that.
I think a more fair criticism is they can be fundamentalists to the point where everyone is terrified to admit they sin in any way.
I think a more fair criticism is they can be fundamentalists to the point where everyone is terrified to admit they sin in any way.
We are probably saying the same thing. Just seem very judgmental.Frok said:
They certainly don't set their own rules. I would say the mega churches with fluffy self-help sermons are much more guilty of that.
I think a more fair criticism is they can be fundamentalists to the point where everyone is terrified to admit they sin in any way.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Frok said:
I like MacArthur and I don't necessarily disagree with lordship salvation. But my problem with this concept is this idea that anything I do is good. I can easily get busy doing good works simply to prove to myself, to god, or to others that I am indeed a saved believer. I'm not sure how good all of that really is. Because often we will go to poor places, serve, feel great about ourselves and then go home and not say a word to our neighbors who live right next to us.
It also doesn't leave much room for those struggling with faith.
A disagreement but overall I like MacArthur and consider his views important on many issues.
Thanks!
Duggins90 said:
Ben is way over his head and clearly has no idea what is in the Old Testament.
JM is one of the best preachers if not the best.
His sermons are direct and to the point and backed by scripture.
I listen to him every evening and wish everyone did.
He believe the signs of the end times are not for the church as the church will be raptured, these end time signs are for the ones left behind.
I also agree with this.
Macarthur said:Frok said:
I like MacArthur and I don't necessarily disagree with lordship salvation. But my problem with this concept is this idea that anything I do is good. I can easily get busy doing good works simply to prove to myself, to god, or to others that I am indeed a saved believer. I'm not sure how good all of that really is. Because often we will go to poor places, serve, feel great about ourselves and then go home and not say a word to our neighbors who live right next to us.
It also doesn't leave much room for those struggling with faith.
A disagreement but overall I like MacArthur and consider his views important on many issues.
Thanks!
Haha
I laughed.Macarthur said:Frok said:
I like MacArthur and I don't necessarily disagree with lordship salvation. But my problem with this concept is this idea that anything I do is good. I can easily get busy doing good works simply to prove to myself, to god, or to others that I am indeed a saved believer. I'm not sure how good all of that really is. Because often we will go to poor places, serve, feel great about ourselves and then go home and not say a word to our neighbors who live right next to us.
It also doesn't leave much room for those struggling with faith.
A disagreement but overall I like MacArthur and consider his views important on many issues.
Thanks!
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
I am confused about this concept of lordship salvation. Is this somehow different than Jesus Christ being lord of one's life or is the controversy over who judges the efficacy of the salvation of other believers?
UTExan said:
I am confused about this concept of lordship salvation. Is this somehow different than Jesus Christ being lord of one's life or is the controversy over who judges the efficacy of the salvation of other believers?
From my understanding the latter part.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
How is it that Ben is way over his head in the "Old Testament"?
Nothing from the video provides this. He is a Modern Orthodox Jew. He has studied the "Old Testament" quite a bit. Seems like you are just slandering his name, which isn't a Christian thing to do.
Nothing from the video provides this. He is a Modern Orthodox Jew. He has studied the "Old Testament" quite a bit. Seems like you are just slandering his name, which isn't a Christian thing to do.
Before 70, when Titus overran the Temple to end the First Roman-Jewish War:
Temple
Sacrifice
Priests
Ark
Words of God
And now:
The human body
Mass
Apostolic Priests
St. Mary
Jesus the Logos
Temple
Sacrifice
Priests
Ark
Words of God
And now:
The human body
Mass
Apostolic Priests
St. Mary
Jesus the Logos
The future back to sacrifices? At least per Ezekiel...
So somehow the words of God were overridden?
So somehow the words of God were overridden?
What are you even talking about? There was no real argument on the OT by the two....Quote:
Ben is way over his head and clearly has no idea what is in the Old Testament.
7nine
Now I am going to have to watch this.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Jesus Christ, Word of God Incarnate, is the Reason and Order of all creation (Logos), and not only the fulfillment of prophecy and law, but Law itself.
Yet, animal sacrifices will continue in the Millenial Kingdom.
Jesus is God incarnate? So when he "kept increasing in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men" (Luke 2:56), God grew in stature with Himself? God grew in wisdom and stature?
God incarnate, but yet the Father is greater than he?
Psalm 2:2-7 states "The kings of earth set themselves up and rulers conspire together against Adonai
and against His Anointed One: "Let's rip their chains apart, and throw their ropes off us!" He who sits in heaven laughs! Adonai mocks them. So He will speak to them in His anger, and terrify them in His fury: "I have set up My king upon Zion, My holy mountain." I will declare the decree of Adonai. He said to me: "You are My Sontoday I have become Your Father.
Peter applies this propechy to Yeshua, but makes them 2 different people:
who by the Holy Spirit, through the mouth of our father David Your servant, said,
'Why did the Gentiles rage,
And the peoples devise futile things?
'The kings of the earth took their stand,
And the rulers were gathered together
Against the Lord and against His Christ.' (Acts 4:25-26)
If we do not try to force the scripture to conform to our own doctrines, they are so simple to understand. Instead men try to support "Holy Trinities", "Incarnations", "Transubstantiations", and the like. The Bible does not use terms like "Father" and "Son" to try and trick us. They are used to express a relationship that we can relate to. If Yeshua is the Father, the scriptures would state it in plain language. Instead, it says that Yeshua is the Son of the Father.
Jesus is God incarnate? So when he "kept increasing in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men" (Luke 2:56), God grew in stature with Himself? God grew in wisdom and stature?
God incarnate, but yet the Father is greater than he?
Psalm 2:2-7 states "The kings of earth set themselves up and rulers conspire together against Adonai
and against His Anointed One: "Let's rip their chains apart, and throw their ropes off us!" He who sits in heaven laughs! Adonai mocks them. So He will speak to them in His anger, and terrify them in His fury: "I have set up My king upon Zion, My holy mountain." I will declare the decree of Adonai. He said to me: "You are My Sontoday I have become Your Father.
Peter applies this propechy to Yeshua, but makes them 2 different people:
who by the Holy Spirit, through the mouth of our father David Your servant, said,
'Why did the Gentiles rage,
And the peoples devise futile things?
'The kings of the earth took their stand,
And the rulers were gathered together
Against the Lord and against His Christ.' (Acts 4:25-26)
If we do not try to force the scripture to conform to our own doctrines, they are so simple to understand. Instead men try to support "Holy Trinities", "Incarnations", "Transubstantiations", and the like. The Bible does not use terms like "Father" and "Son" to try and trick us. They are used to express a relationship that we can relate to. If Yeshua is the Father, the scriptures would state it in plain language. Instead, it says that Yeshua is the Son of the Father.
Minor correction, but the first Jewish war didn't end with the temple destruction in 70. It ended at Masada in 73.
Ha,
I'm happy to engage you, but it would be helpful if you identify your group of worship. I'm having Bracy flashbacks (for the old timers here). Are you Messianic Jewish? I'm a Catholic who grew up Southern Baptist.
Win,
I suppose that's fine, but I view my generalization as correct due to being a preterist.
I'm happy to engage you, but it would be helpful if you identify your group of worship. I'm having Bracy flashbacks (for the old timers here). Are you Messianic Jewish? I'm a Catholic who grew up Southern Baptist.
Win,
I suppose that's fine, but I view my generalization as correct due to being a preterist.
God was both fully human and fully God. (Hypostatic Union) to use the theological term. Moreover the term, Homoousios to show the same essence of the Father and the Son. This confirmed in scripture when Jesus proclaims "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30). In John's Gospel, Jesus is also called God (John 1:1). It literally starts with John proclaiming Christ as God.HaEmet said:
Yet, animal sacrifices will continue in the Millenial Kingdom.
Jesus is God incarnate? So when he "kept increasing in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men" (Luke 2:56), God grew in stature with Himself? God grew in wisdom and stature?
God incarnate, but yet the Father is greater than he?
What we see in scripture is (Luke 2:56) and in "the father is greater" is the interplay between the full humanity of Jesus and the Full divinity of Jesus.
If you want to slap a title on me, sure call me Messianic Jewish, but that shouldn't have any affect on the translation of verses.Redstone said:
Ha,
I'm happy to engage you, but it would be helpful if you identify your group of worship. I'm having Bracy flashbacks (for the old timers here). Are you Messianic Jewish? I'm a Catholic who grew up Southern Baptist.
Saying we are one doesn't have to mean we are one in the same. An agent working on behalf of someone it said to be one. Two people united are said to be one.Ordhound04 said:God was both fully human and fully God. (Hypostatic Union) to use the theological term. Moreover the term, Homoousios to show the same essence of the Father and the Son. This confirmed in scripture when Jesus proclaims "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30). In John's Gospel, Jesus is also called God (John 1:1). It literally starts with John proclaiming Christ as God.HaEmet said:
Yet, animal sacrifices will continue in the Millenial Kingdom.
Jesus is God incarnate? So when he "kept increasing in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men" (Luke 2:56), God grew in stature with Himself? God grew in wisdom and stature?
God incarnate, but yet the Father is greater than he?
What we see in scripture is (Luke 2:56) and in "the father is greater" is the interplay between the full humanity of Jesus and the Full divinity of Jesus.
Jesus is either fully human or fully God. God cannot stop being God. Luke 2:56 speaks about Jesus growing in favor, wisdom, and stature not anything to do with the Father is greater.
Where you been?
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HaEmet said:Saying we are one doesn't have to mean we are one in the same. An agent working on behalf of someone it said to be one. Two people united are said to be one.Ordhound04 said:God was both fully human and fully God. (Hypostatic Union) to use the theological term. Moreover the term, Homoousios to show the same essence of the Father and the Son. This confirmed in scripture when Jesus proclaims "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30). In John's Gospel, Jesus is also called God (John 1:1). It literally starts with John proclaiming Christ as God.HaEmet said:
Yet, animal sacrifices will continue in the Millenial Kingdom.
Jesus is God incarnate? So when he "kept increasing in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men" (Luke 2:56), God grew in stature with Himself? God grew in wisdom and stature?
God incarnate, but yet the Father is greater than he?
What we see in scripture is (Luke 2:56) and in "the father is greater" is the interplay between the full humanity of Jesus and the Full divinity of Jesus.
Jesus is either fully human or fully God. God cannot stop being God. Luke 2:56 speaks about Jesus growing in favor, wisdom, and stature not anything to do with the Father is greater.
As I stated, what we see is the interplay between the full humanity of Jesus and the Full divinity of Jesus. You seem to be ignoring John 1:1. Where John explicitly calls Jesus God. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
Moreover Paul confirms this when he calls Jesus the Firstborn of Creation "prototokos" in Greek. Paul, notably, does not call Jesus "First Created" which is "Protoktisis".
Paul will also clarify the uncreated nature of Jesus by stating that all things were created by Jesus and that Jesus is before all "Things". Colossionas 16-17. A Jesus that is created is not God, since God is uncreated, but if Jesus, is uncreated, as Paul asserts, then Jesus is God, since only god is uncreated.
Of course -
the canon, which was argued mostly from Rome in the 2nd and 3rd Centuries, must have the earliest Greek language copies translated well - meaning "literally" and with heavy explanation.
I strongly recommend Hart
https://www.amazon.com/New-Testament-David-Bentley-Hart/dp/0300186096
the canon, which was argued mostly from Rome in the 2nd and 3rd Centuries, must have the earliest Greek language copies translated well - meaning "literally" and with heavy explanation.
I strongly recommend Hart
https://www.amazon.com/New-Testament-David-Bentley-Hart/dp/0300186096
Second, that label you accepted is very important, because it allows those here who follow the Apostolic faith and tradition to better understand your position.
I would respectfully argue those two titles are complete and total opposites, as the definition of "Jewish" was very radically reconstructed, and necessarily so, after 70. Therefore, Christianity is older than Judaism, a large and diverse umbrella term whose only unifying characteristic is that the Messianic claim of Jesus the Nazarene was and is wrong.
I would respectfully argue those two titles are complete and total opposites, as the definition of "Jewish" was very radically reconstructed, and necessarily so, after 70. Therefore, Christianity is older than Judaism, a large and diverse umbrella term whose only unifying characteristic is that the Messianic claim of Jesus the Nazarene was and is wrong.
The problem in dealing with preterism is that it leaves no room for the many prophecies of the old and new Testaments to be fulfilled. Example: Matt 24 and Jesus foretelling the destruction of Jerusalem. Titus Vespasian is not the only tyrant who has/will besiege Jerusalem even as Nimrod was not/will not be the last to try to unite the world against the God who created the universe. The very fact that Israel was resurrected to become a thriving nation ought to be the landmark proof for the veracity of biblical prophecy, but many Christians treat it as an event as normal as the sun rising.
Who are the people Israel?
Catholics and Orthodox, for excellent and detailed reasons, consider those who follow Christ in His fulfillment of prophecy and the law (Himself in the Sacraments) to be so, which follows very directly from St. James presiding at the Council of Jerusalem.
Catholics and Orthodox, for excellent and detailed reasons, consider those who follow Christ in His fulfillment of prophecy and the law (Himself in the Sacraments) to be so, which follows very directly from St. James presiding at the Council of Jerusalem.
If Jesus Christ is not fully God, or did not preexist His birth and taking of flesh (which is all "incarnate" means) how was He in the beginning? And how as He with God, and was God? (John 1). And, how can the scriptures say He was in the form of God?
He did not count being equal to God something to be grasped, or seized - which shows more than one Divine Persons. How can a thing be equal without comparison? And who can even think to seize upon being equal with God other than God? Therefore before He was a Man, He was in a relationship with God, as one of equals.
Then He took the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of man, says the Scripture. And if He was ever a Man, which the scriptures surely say He was, then being in the form of a servant means He was a man. Therefore before He took the form of a servant, He was in the form of God, and therefore was God.
In the form of a servant he had the likeness of man; therefore in the form of God He had the likeness of God. And note He existed in the form of God, but emptied Himself to take the form of a servant.
If Jesus is not fully God, on what grounds can St Paul say He has the name above every name? What name is above every name but the divine name? St Paul meant what He said.
Or on what grounds can St Paul write that we look for our great God and Savior Jesus Christ (Titus 2:13)? Is there more than one God?
If He was not before He was incarnate, who is speaking in Psalm 40? Who is the one written in the book? Who was the body prepared for, of whom God required no sacrifice for sin? Who opens the book, who was slain, who is praised and worshipped with Him who sits on the throne (Rev 5)?
He did not count being equal to God something to be grasped, or seized - which shows more than one Divine Persons. How can a thing be equal without comparison? And who can even think to seize upon being equal with God other than God? Therefore before He was a Man, He was in a relationship with God, as one of equals.
Then He took the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of man, says the Scripture. And if He was ever a Man, which the scriptures surely say He was, then being in the form of a servant means He was a man. Therefore before He took the form of a servant, He was in the form of God, and therefore was God.
In the form of a servant he had the likeness of man; therefore in the form of God He had the likeness of God. And note He existed in the form of God, but emptied Himself to take the form of a servant.
If Jesus is not fully God, on what grounds can St Paul say He has the name above every name? What name is above every name but the divine name? St Paul meant what He said.
Or on what grounds can St Paul write that we look for our great God and Savior Jesus Christ (Titus 2:13)? Is there more than one God?
If He was not before He was incarnate, who is speaking in Psalm 40? Who is the one written in the book? Who was the body prepared for, of whom God required no sacrifice for sin? Who opens the book, who was slain, who is praised and worshipped with Him who sits on the throne (Rev 5)?
Dodge duck dip dive and dodge. He says "I and the Father are one" and "If you have seen me you have seen the Father" and "How can you say, show us the Father?" He does not say He became the Father, or that He became God. He says they are one.Quote:
Saying we are one doesn't have to mean we are one in the same. An agent working on behalf of someone it said to be one. Two people united are said to be one.
Jesus is either fully human or fully God. God cannot stop being God. Luke 2:56 speaks about Jesus growing in favor, wisdom, and stature not anything to do with the Father is greater.
He says He is not from this world. Where else can He be from? And He says if you do not believe who He is, you die in your sins. Who saves but God? Who forgives sin but God? Christ Jesus says that before Abraham was, I AM. He is the Lord, He is God, or He blasphemes.
The scriptures say Jesus was God. The scriptures say He was made man. They do not say he ever stopped being God.
You do not know the scriptures.
Genesis 1:26
26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image
26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image
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