Yea there is a different reason for that one

Quote:

---

As I stated, what we see is the interplay between the full humanity of Jesus and the Full divinity of Jesus. You seem to be ignoring John 1:1. Where John explicitly calls Jesus God. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Moreover Paul confirms this when he calls Jesus the Firstborn of Creation "prototokos" in Greek. Paul, notably, does not call Jesus "First Created" which is "Protoktisis".

Paul will also clarify the uncreated nature of Jesus by stating that all things were created by Jesus and that Jesus is before all "Things". Colossionas 16-17. A Jesus that is created is not God, since God is uncreated, but if Jesus, is uncreated, as Paul asserts, then Jesus is God, since only god is uncreated.

---

I am not really ignoring John 1:1. I just see the verse in a different context than most Christians. The gospel of John is completely different than the other three. The gospel of John is not a peshat writing, it is written in the sod. It is a mystic type of writing like Revelation.

The word logos in John 1:1 refers to God's creative self-expressionHis reason, purposes and plans, especially as they are brought into action. The logos is the expression of God, and is His communication of Himself, just as a "word" is an outward expression of a person's thoughts. This outward expression of God has now occurred through His Son, hence it is perfectly understandable why Jesus is called the "Word." Jesus is an outward expression of God's reason, wisdom, purpose and plan. For the same reason, we call revelation "a word from God" and the Bible "the Word of God."

If we understand that the logos is God's expressionHis plan, purposes, reason and wisdom, it is clear that they were indeed with Him "in the beginning." Scripture says that God's wisdom was "from the beginning" (Prov. 8:23). It was very common in Hebrew writing to personify a concept such as wisdom. No one reading Proverbs would think that God's wisdom was a separate person, even though it is portrayed as one in verses like Prov. 8:29-30: "when He marked out the foundations of the earth, I [wisdom] was the craftsman at His side."

Most Jewish readers of the Gospel of John in that time would have been familiar with the concept of God's "word" being with God as He worked to bring His creation into existence. There is an obvious working of God's power in Genesis 1 as He brings His plan into action by speaking things into being. The Targums are well known for describing the wisdom and action of God as His "word." This is especially important to note because the Targums are the Aramaic translations and paraphrases of the Old Testament, and Aramaic was the spoken language of many Jews at the time of the Messiah. Remembering that a Targum is usually a paraphrase of what the Hebrew text says, note how the following examples attribute action to the word:

• And the word of the Lord was Joseph's helper (Gen 39:2).
• And Moses brought the people to meet the word of the Lord (Ex 19:17).
• And the word of the Lord accepted the face of Job (Job 42:9).
• And the word of the Lord shall laugh them to scorn (Psalm 2:4).
• They believed in the name of His word (Psalm 106:12).

The above examples demonstrate that the Jews were familiar with the idea of God's Word referring to His wisdom and action. This is especially important to note because Jews were fiercely monotheistic, and did not in any way believe in a "Triune God." They were familiar with the idioms of their own language, and understood that the wisdom and power of God were being personified as "word."

Ha,

Lots to unpack here. It is important to first tackle some "meta" issues.

- St. John was writing for a Greek-speaking audience.
- Authorship was massively more "unstable" than we know it (and really until the time of Samuel Johnson's Dictionary, IMO). Gospel, as Hart details (please engage that translation and his explanations) could mean "friends of St. John" and / or "in the school of St. John."
- The prelude is indeed quite unique in all the canon, and the Gospel is very metaphysical - again important to remember it was focused upon Hellenic audiences, and meant to "complete" their understanding of Reason and Order (as a Person, Jesus the Christ).
- The canon - ALL of it - is literally a product of the Apostolic Church. It is NOT the literal Word of God. Jesus the Logos is. The canon was decided and debated over 2 centuries, mostly from Councils of Rome. Why is the hugely controversial Hebrews and Revealing in? Why is Enoch, quoted by St. Jude, out? Because the Church said so.

With this in mind -
The early Church very clearly understand the Gospel to state that Jesus was and is the Order and Reason of all creation. This was God's unifying and unifying principle of creation. The universe has a rational order. A purpose. This is a Person. The telos of life is theois to Logos.

Plenty of early Church fathers detail this.

I respectfully again suggest that one really needs to view Jesus - the Person - as the fulfillment of ALL Hebrew law and prophecy. Every single corner of it. After 70 AD destruction -
Temple (body) ---- Ark (St. Mary) ----- Sacrifice (Mass) ------ Priests (Apostolic authority)

Christ is Logos. He fulfilled the promise of salvation and should be worshiped as God among us.

From here, the Gospel - and the Old Testament - makes so much sense.

There's no difference between what you just described and what the theology of the Trinity says. Jesus Christ is the wisdom, power, etc as the Word of God. Therefore there never was a time when God was without His Word, His wisdom, His power. When we say person, we don't mean separate and distinct the way John and Steve are separate. John and Steve are not one, truly one, they just share some commonality, and we call that their humanity or whatever.

But Jesus Christ is God. In the beginning He was with God, and He was God.

Don't make the mistake of taking the terminology of the philosophers that was used to describe the reality of the experience of the Faith as true on the face of it. It's not true, the dogmas aren't true - they witness to the truth, which is ineffable.

Christians have always been adamant - we believe in One God; it's the start of our symbol of faith. And Jesus Christ is also God, very of very God. And He was made man. There is no struggle there for us. The truth is: we simply follow.

Can two humans be one? No. But God is not like us, He is beyond existing and non-existing, above being and non-being, outside of the concepts of simplicity and multiplicity. He's all of it and none of it because He is outside of everything we could compare Him to (Isaiah 40:18). As St Gregory Palamas said - if He exists then I do not; if I exist then He does not. He is so unlike us that we can't apply our logic to subordinate Him.

To deny the Incarnation as impossible is to limit God. To say God cannot be 3 and 1 is to subject a God to our concepts of unity and division. Experience is the testament - the dogmas are simply ways to express the reality. There is a time when dogmas will pass and we will know as we are known - without the burden of dogma or expression.

Think of the verses that point to Christ in the Apostolic tradition (it's a lot).

My favorite:

Wisdom (18:14 16)

For while gentle silence enveloped all things, and night in its swift course was now half gone, thy all-powerful word leaped from heaven, from the royal throne, into the midst of the land that was doomed, a stern warrior carrying the sharp sword of thy authentic command, and stood and filled all things with death, and touched heaven while standing on the earth.

You guys are very Greek based which Jesus and his disciples were very Jewish.

Until one is willing to stop looking from the Greek, Western mindset, it really doesn't matter.

The Greek and Jewish viewpoints are certainly different but not incompatible. Philo of Alexandria melded traditional Jewish thought with Greek Platonism pretty seamlessly. Philo's Logos was a divine person embodying God's wisdom and power, and was a parallel to Plato's demiurge. In fact, John's first chapter draws heavily from Philo's account of the Logos, and the early Christians continued to fuse Greek and Hebrew thought.

It's also pretty much impossible to study Christianity from an entirely Jewish perspective. As was mentioned above, Judaism in the centuries after 70 AD defined itself quite literally as non-Christian. So basically all ancient and current Jewish thought is Jewish unless it leads to or is part of Christianity, at which point it is automatically non-Jewish.

HaEmet said:

---

I am not really ignoring John 1:1. I just see the verse in a different context than most Christians. The gospel of John is completely different than the other three. The gospel of John is not a peshat writing, it is written in the sod. It is a mystic type of writing like Revelation.

The word logos in John 1:1 refers to God's creative self-expressionHis reason, purposes and plans, especially as they are brought into action. The logos is the expression of God, and is His communication of Himself, just as a "word" is an outward expression of a person's thoughts. This outward expression of God has now occurred through His Son, hence it is perfectly understandable why Jesus is called the "Word." Jesus is an outward expression of God's reason, wisdom, purpose and plan. For the same reason, we call revelation "a word from God" and the Bible "the Word of God."

If we understand that the logos is God's expressionHis plan, purposes, reason and wisdom, it is clear that they were indeed with Him "in the beginning." Scripture says that God's wisdom was "from the beginning" (Prov. 8:23). It was very common in Hebrew writing to personify a concept such as wisdom. No one reading Proverbs would think that God's wisdom was a separate person, even though it is portrayed as one in verses like Prov. 8:29-30: "when He marked out the foundations of the earth, I [wisdom] was the craftsman at His side."

Most Jewish readers of the Gospel of John in that time would have been familiar with the concept of God's "word" being with God as He worked to bring His creation into existence. There is an obvious working of God's power in Genesis 1 as He brings His plan into action by speaking things into being. The Targums are well known for describing the wisdom and action of God as His "word." This is especially important to note because the Targums are the Aramaic translations and paraphrases of the Old Testament, and Aramaic was the spoken language of many Jews at the time of the Messiah. Remembering that a Targum is usually a paraphrase of what the Hebrew text says, note how the following examples attribute action to the word:

• And the word of the Lord was Joseph's helper (Gen 39:2).
• And Moses brought the people to meet the word of the Lord (Ex 19:17).
• And the word of the Lord accepted the face of Job (Job 42:9).
• And the word of the Lord shall laugh them to scorn (Psalm 2:4).
• They believed in the name of His word (Psalm 106:12).

The above examples demonstrate that the Jews were familiar with the idea of God's Word referring to His wisdom and action. This is especially important to note because Jews were fiercely monotheistic, and did not in any way believe in a "Triune God." They were familiar with the idioms of their own language, and understood that the wisdom and power of God were being personified as "word."

---

The problem with this viewpoint is that the Logos of God, is God. Not some individual and divisible aspect of God. If Jesus, the Logos, is only a part/aspect of God, who Jewish theology will say is indivisible, then one is either making the claim that God is, in fact, divisible, or that Jesus is God. "I and the Father are one".

If we therefore then claim that Jesus is the "Logos" in the classically Jewish viewpoint. Jesus must be God as the Logos is indivisible from God. "One in being/consubstantial".

We know how the Apostles described Jesus.

Paul in Titus 2:13 Calls Jesus God and Savior
Peter Calls him the same in 2 Peter 1:1
John claims it in his gospel.
Mathew makes the case that Jesus is worthy of worship in Mathew 14:33

Jesus makes the claim himself in various ways.

So the question is, when the Apostles make the claim, and Jesus makes the claim, why don't you take them at their "Word"?

John MacArthur is a fantastic preacher and excellent student of the word. Listen to him as much as possible and learn lots. Like any pastor we must evaluate their teaching with the word of God to know if they are speaking truth. Yes, the Lordship doctrine drives me bonkers as well but I've learned so much else from his exposition. (The Battle for the Beginning is a great book)

LordShip Salvation explained: A person who truly believes in Jesus will display fruits of belief. In other words, they will submit their lives to the Lordship of Jesus. They lives would not be characterized by great sins and all will know them by their fruit (acts of obedience). They will also have desires to love others, serve, and read God's word. If they do not, this is evidence that they are not saved.

1st: This is not true. Salvation was completely paid for by the work of Jesus and is applied to our accounts through faith in Him. He gives us the Holy Spirit and with this comes a new conviction towards sin. All believers SHOULD at ALL TIMES surrender their lives to the Lordship of Jesus because He is worthy; however all Christians do not do this. Some get entangled into sin and the consequences of sin. These believers are not lost because of the grip that Jesus has on them.

2nd: The danger of this doctrine is that believers tend to look inwardly for assurance of salvation based upon their actions and desires. Their focus is removed from Jesus. Others tend to become fruit inspectors, thus looking for fruit in the lives of others and making judgments of 'saved' or 'not saved'. It's good to make these distinctions for the purpose of discipleship or sharing the gospel with them but fruit does not give us the answer.

To the Trinity discussion: This is just a way to describe what we see in the scriptures. Jesus claimed to be 'I AM". The audience responded appropriately. They either worshiped Him as God or tried to kill Him. There are tons of references both direct and indirect for the deity of Jesus.
Acts 20:28 Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

DirtDiver said:

---

John MacArthur is a fantastic preacher and excellent student of the word. Listen to him as much as possible and learn lots. Like any pastor we must evaluate their teaching with the word of God to know if they are speaking truth. Yes, the Lordship doctrine drives me bonkers as well but I've learned so much else from his exposition. (The Battle for the Beginning is a great book)

LordShip Salvation explained: A person who truly believes in Jesus will display fruits of belief. In other words, they will submit their lives to the Lordship of Jesus. They lives would not be characterized by great sins and all will know them by their fruit (acts of obedience). They will also have desires to love others, serve, and read God's word. If they do not, this is evidence that they are not saved.

1st: This is not true. Salvation was completely paid for by the work of Jesus and is applied to our accounts through faith in Him. He gives us the Holy Spirit and with this comes a new conviction towards sin. All believers SHOULD at ALL TIMES surrender their lives to the Lordship of Jesus because He is worthy; however all Christians do not do this. Some get entangled into sin and the consequences of sin. These believers are not lost because of the grip that Jesus has on them.

2nd: The danger of this doctrine is that believers tend to look inwardly for assurance of salvation based upon their actions and desires. Their focus is removed from Jesus. Others tend to become fruit inspectors, thus looking for fruit in the lives of others and making judgments of 'saved' or 'not saved'. It's good to make these distinctions for the purpose of discipleship or sharing the gospel with them but fruit does not give us the answer.

To the Trinity discussion: This is just a way to describe what we see in the scriptures. Jesus claimed to be 'I AM". The audience responded appropriately. They either worshiped Him as God or tried to kill Him. There are tons of references both direct and indirect for the deity of Jesus.
Acts 20:28 Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

---

Agree for the most part. I have read horror stories of the judgemental aspects(which I believe originated from the Lordship Salvation teachings) of his church but agree that his writings are good.

John did a complete sermon on the wrath of God per the verses below..

Romans 1:18-27 New International Version (NIV)
God's Wrath Against Sinful Humanity
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualitieshis eternal power and divine naturehave been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creatorwho is forever praised. Amen.
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Cool. What does that have to do with Christians judging other Christians? Or anybody for that matter? Scripture is pretty explicit about judgement.

Edited to add that sometimes it seems people forget God loves them. And everybody was created in God's image.

Matthew 7 1-5

God will do the judging is the message.

repentance of one's sin is for God's grace, not mine.

I am to Forgive 7x70.

Duggins90 said:

---

God will do the judging is the message.

repentance of one's sin is for God's grace, not mine.

I am to Forgive 7x70.

---

I agree with that. You might google sgm survivors. And granted I am not a Calvinist or Lordship salvation guy as I believe salvation is a free gift of grace and faith in Christ's finished work is all one needs. I think it is a very slippery slope when "other stuff" is required as it can become pretty arbitrary. And exhorting your congregation is one thing, saying they are not saved based on your beliefs in Lordship salvation is something entirely different imho.

We agree:

GREAT thing happens when you do this as a family which makes it worth your time.

Get involved in a Christian church that worships and prays together, it is so uplifting to the soul. But weekly church service is not enough in a quest to get closer to God!
Some nights, we listen to John Mac., other nights, we listen to Joel O. or Max L. The energy of a young Billy G. is inspiring and worthy of your time. Alistair B. can hold your attention and bring you to the cross and Pastor Lawson can scare the devil out of you.
Keep searching with the help of those that have studied the word for years.

Pray for wisdom. Also, pray for each other is the best advise I was ever given by a preacher.

Pre-rapture, mid-rapture, post-rapture...doesn't matter, you may die tonight and it is over then.

Be ready at all times to meet your maker is the best advise from this old sinner.

dermdoc said:

---

Duggins90 said:

---

God will do the judging is the message.

repentance of one's sin is for God's grace, not mine.

I am to Forgive 7x70.

---

I agree with that. You might google sgm survivors. And granted I am not a Calvinist or Lordship salvation guy as I believe salvation is a free gift of grace and faith in Christ's finished work is all one needs. I think it is a very slippery slope when "other stuff" is required as it can become pretty arbitrary. And exhorting your congregation is one thing, saying they are not saved based on your beliefs in Lordship salvation is something entirely different imho.

---

I agree Doc..

Ephesians 2:8-9

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

I believe knowing you are saved inspires you to spread the word via good works/deeds or speech to others..Just one guy's personal view...

Amen. I try to explain this to younger believers. You can not be all that God wants you to be unless you are totally secure in your salvation. And then He can do everything through you. I am weak but He is strong. Truly amazing.