Personal opinion is that he was about 50% right...
Thoughts?
Thoughts?
The purpose is to let everyone know that not all Catholics think Luther was all bad. He was right in some things, but very wrong in others. I truly wish that all Lutherans would adopt his love of Mary as their own mother, as beloved disciples of Jesus, as St. John did at the foot of the cross.Quote:
Nobody claims Luther was infallible, but this does little to further discussion.
It's only 2019. Give it a few years.k2aggie07 said:
How many people you know born of a man?
Neon R said:
How was he so wrong about the Jews?
Is this representative of 1900 years of Christianity?Marv C. World said:Neon R said:
How was he so wrong about the Jews?
His views were almost 100% the norm among everyone at the time. These views persisted among Christians until pretty much the end of the 1800s. In many areas this continued until the Civil Right's movement in the 60s. You essentially have to condemn 1900 years of Christianity in general if you condemn his views.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Every single Christian branch throughout history and today claims to be either a continuation, refounding, or renewal of the original Christian faith. As you said, that makes them fair game to be held to the moral standards of Jesus, the Apostles, and the earliest ChristiansQuote:
Although it might not be fair to judge people in the past by the moral standards of today, it is very fair to judge Christians at any time in history by the moral standards of the Bible.
FIFY.JJMt said:
Although it might not be fair to judge people in the past by the moral standards of today, it is very fair to judge Christians at any time in history by the moral standards of the Bible.
Persecuting Jews just because they're Jews is clearly against everything Christ taught. Luther failed that standard to which he laid claim.
Of course, Luther was a man just like us, with both strengths and weaknesses. We should neither try to make Luther a demon for his weaknesses nor dedicate an entire denominations to his teachings.
PacifistAg said:
And, if that violent antisemitism is truly representative of 1900 years of Church history, then yes we should condemn that such evil was pervasive for 1900 years. We know it's evil because it could not look more opposed to the life and teachings of Christ.
When the Nazis are drawing heavily upon your writings, then I have a hard time believing those writings are consistent with Christ.
Who am I to judge those outside the church? Are we not to judge those inside? Yes, any violence is evil, but we do not repay evil with evil. We repay evil with good.Quote:
So do we condemn the Jews for being equally antagonistic towards Christians for the same time period? Come on now, ethnocentricity and religious supremacy was the norm in the world for everyone. Hatred of this kind does not come from no where. Jews, Christians, and Muslims have been at each other's throats for the overwhelming majority of their existences. I don't understand why only Christians are criticized in this situation when clearly everyone is at fault.
First, I don't believe in the 'eternal conscious torment' view of hell. Second, we don't convert non-believers with the sword. We don't repay evil for evil. We change the world through the blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony. We do it the way the early church did...with self-sacrificial love. We love our enemies, and pray for those who persecute us. Regardless of one's view of "hell", it's not our job to speed someone's trip there. It's our job to love our enemies, and do good to them.Quote:
The problem we have now is where does this tolerance end? I understand promoting peace everywhere among all people but how do we reconcile this with the belief that non-believers who have outright rejected Jesus go to Hell? We can promote peace all we want but it does not change the words of the Bible. Whether you believe it's an actual lake of fire with eternal torture or that it is a place where you will eternally be without God's presence doesn't really matter because ultimately it's all the same, non-believers do not go to Heaven.
How do we rectify that? By loving God, loving our neighbors, and loving our enemies. We present a radical alternative to the world that doesn't look like the evil they follow. We don't embrace a slightly different flavored evil. We fight evil the way Christ did, self-sacrificial love so deep that He prayed for the forgiveness of His murderers. When we are insulted, we do not insult in return. We love. That's how we're known as His children. Blasphemy should be addressed within the church, but again, who are we to judge those outside the church? Our goal isn't to "defeat" them, but to reflect Christ so strongly that our witness is used by God to draw them to Himself.Quote:
Tolerance is great and all but if people are actively trying to lead people away from God through demonizing or attacking Christianity then how do you rectify that? Whether it be Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, etc. if they are actively doing this after hearing of the good news then are they not an enemy of Christianity? They are actively leading people to reject Jesus and submit themselves to eternal damnation. How is this not evil? How is this not the work of Satan and his followers? Tolerance is great and all but the way it is now, tolerance means allowing the wrong side to win and lead people astray. Christianity is dying a slow death in the West so it's obviously working as well because Christians have decided as a whole to do nothing about any of this. We have Priests kissing the feet of people from other religions and Pastors actively promoting other religions. Is this not blasphemy? How should an average person who might convert view these things? If the religion won't even take any steps to save itself then is it really worth following?
I'm interested in seeing any of your examples of Christians deaths at the hands of Jews during this time period.Quote:
So do we condemn the Jews for being equally antagonistic towards Christians for the same time period?
Win At Life said:I'm interested in seeing any of your examples of Christians deaths at the hands of Jews during this time period.Quote:
So do we condemn the Jews for being equally antagonistic towards Christians for the same time period?
Neon R said:Win At Life said:I'm interested in seeing any of your examples of Christians deaths at the hands of Jews during this time period.Quote:
So do we condemn the Jews for being equally antagonistic towards Christians for the same time period?
There are numerous examples. I believe in these modern times it's referred to as the "blood libel"
PacifistAg said:Neon R said:Win At Life said:I'm interested in seeing any of your examples of Christians deaths at the hands of Jews during this time period.Quote:
So do we condemn the Jews for being equally antagonistic towards Christians for the same time period?
There are numerous examples. I believe in these modern times it's referred to as the "blood libel"
Is there actual evidence these actually occurred, because everything I'm finding presents them as nothing more than antisemitic myths created to justify expulsion or murder of Jews.
Links to such evidence/trials? I know I read one where a Jewish man is said to have confessed, presumably so his life would be spared, but how much can we trust such confessions when grotesque torture during interrogations was far from uncommon in the middle ages. Is it evidence like this:Neon R said:PacifistAg said:Neon R said:Win At Life said:I'm interested in seeing any of your examples of Christians deaths at the hands of Jews during this time period.Quote:
So do we condemn the Jews for being equally antagonistic towards Christians for the same time period?
There are numerous examples. I believe in these modern times it's referred to as the "blood libel"
Is there actual evidence these actually occurred, because everything I'm finding presents them as nothing more than antisemitic myths created to justify expulsion or murder of Jews.
I'm not sure what you would like to see that would qualify as "evidence" in your opinion? I'm pretty sure most of these events had trials where evidence was produced