Was Luther 100% right? 50% right? or 0% right?

5,243 Views | 45 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by PacifistAg
Neon R
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PacifistAg said:

Neon R said:

PacifistAg said:

Neon R said:

Win At Life said:

Quote:

So do we condemn the Jews for being equally antagonistic towards Christians for the same time period?
I'm interested in seeing any of your examples of Christians deaths at the hands of Jews during this time period.

There are numerous examples. I believe in these modern times it's referred to as the "blood libel"

Is there actual evidence these actually occurred, because everything I'm finding presents them as nothing more than antisemitic myths created to justify expulsion or murder of Jews.

I'm not sure what you would like to see that would qualify as "evidence" in your opinion? I'm pretty sure most of these events had trials where evidence was produced
Links to such evidence/trials? I know I read one where a Jewish man is said to have confessed, presumably so his life would be spared, but how much can we trust such confessions when grotesque torture during interrogations was far from uncommon in the middle ages. Is it evidence like this:



I'm genuinely curious if there's credible evidence. In the end, though, it wouldn't matter since we are not to repay evil with evil, but with good.

I'll see what I can find. I do find it interesting that throughout many centuries, wherever the Jews settled they were eventually accused of the same crimes. Again- what would you like to see that you would qualify as evidence? There was no DNA or forensics for most of our human existence
PacifistAg
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AG
Yes, antisemitism has long been a major problem.

As for evidence, whatever you can find. I can review and come to a judgement based on what's presented. Source is also important, as claims by antisemitic sources won't really be credible.

Again, though, true or myth is really irrelevant when it comes to behaviors of those who claim Christ. Even if every claim is true, we are commanded to repay evil with good, love our enemies, and not seek revenge.
Zobel
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AG
During that time period, meh. But Jewish persecution of Christians in the earlier centuries was fairly common (burning of churches etc). Human nature, I think, that the majority persecuted the minority.

Not that any of this excuses any of it, right?
Neon R
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PacifistAg said:

Yes, antisemitism has long been a major problem.

As for evidence, whatever you can find. I can review and come to a judgement based on what's presented. Source is also important, as claims by antisemitic sources won't really be credible.

From previous research I've done- a lot of evidence was stuff like eye witness testimony or where the body was found. There were also confessions as you said. Obviously none of that is concrete compared to evidence we can produce in modern times.

IMO there are 3 possible explanations.
1. Jews are innocent but the Europeans hate them so much they went through the trouble of accusing them of made up stuff as a pretext to pogrom them. Idk why they'd go through the trouble over so many centuries but that's one explanation.
2. Jews are innocent but the Europeans genuinely believed them to be guilty of the crimes they are accused of. Presumably from evidence they had.
3. Jews are guilty
PacifistAg
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AG
Yes. We have NT support for that in Stephen, and the subsequent persecution conducted by a pre-conversion Paul.
PacifistAg
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AG

Quote:

IMO there are 3 possible explanations.
1. Jews are innocent but the Europeans hate them so much they went through the trouble of accusing them of made up stuff as a pretext to pogrom them. Idk why they'd go through the trouble over so many centuries but that's one explanation.
2. Jews are innocent but the Europeans genuinely believed them to be guilty of the crimes they are accused of. Presumably from evidence they had.
3. Jews are guilty
1. The satanic evil of Adolph Hitler and the rise of the Nazis shows that this isn't a stretch. We see something similar with the lengthy oppression of black people in America, specifically under the evils of Jim Crow.
2. This seems very similar, again, to what we saw here in the US. So, this is certainly plausible.
3. I think you mean "some Jews".
Win At Life
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AG
Neon R said:

Win At Life said:

Quote:

So do we condemn the Jews for being equally antagonistic towards Christians for the same time period?
I'm interested in seeing any of your examples of Christians deaths at the hands of Jews during this time period.

There are numerous examples. I believe in these modern times it's referred to as the "blood libel"
Wait a minute.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_libel

You are accusing the Jewish community of a campaign to murder Christians and use their human blood to make masztah for Passover?

You actually believe this?

I'll give you a moment to re-think your position.
Win At Life
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AG
k2aggie07 said:

During that time period, meh. But Jewish persecution of Christians in the earlier centuries was fairly common (burning of churches etc). Human nature, I think, that the majority persecuted the minority.

Not that any of this excuses any of it, right?
Can you link evidence of the burning of Christian churches by Jews for any time between the second century and the reformation of Israel in 1948?
Zobel
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AG
St Justin Martyr wrote as a kind of aside:

Quote:

[The Scriptures are] also in the possession of all Jews throughout the world; but they, though they read, do not understand what is said, but count us foes and enemies; and, like yourselves, they kill and punish us whenever they have the power, as you can well believe. For in the Jewish war which lately raged, Barchochebas, the leader of the revolt of the Jews, gave orders that Christians alone should be led to cruel punishments, unless they would deny Jesus Christ and utter blasphemy.
Barchochebas is Simon Bar Kohkba, and this account is also recorded by Eusebius.

Here's some evidence from 388, referring to several incidents during the reign of Julian the Apostate (361 to 363)...off the top of my head.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/340940.htm


Quote:

...Certainly, if I were pleading according to the law of nations, I could tell how many of the Church's basilicas the Jews burnt in the time of the Emperor Julian: two at Damascus, one of which is scarcely now repaired, and this at the cost of the Church, not of the Synagogue; the other basilica still is a rough mass of shapeless ruins. Basilicas were burnt at Gaza, Ascalon, Berytus, and in almost every place in those parts, and no one demanded punishment. And at Alexandria a basilica was burnt by pagans and Jews, which surpassed all the rest.

There were several Jewish revolts against the Byzantine empire in the 600s, some of which were no doubt due to Byzantine persecution of Jews.

There was a violent event conducted by Persians, reinforced by Jewish forces led by Nehemiah ben Hushiel and Benjamin of Tiberias, in Jerusalem in 614. This is recorded by Antiochus Strategos and has been backed up by archaeological evidence.
Quote:

Thereupon the vile Jews, enemies of the truth and haters of Christ, when they perceived that the Christians were given over into the hands of the enemy, rejoiced exceedingly, because they detested the Christians ; and they conceived an evil plan in keeping with their vileness about the people. For in the eyes of the Persians their importance was great, because they were the betrayers of the Christians. And in this season then the Jews approached the edge of the reservoir and called out to the children of God, while they were shut up therein, and said to them : 'If ye would escape from death, become Jews and deny Christ; and then ye shall step up from your place and join us. We will ransom you with our money, and ye shall be benefited by us.' But their plot and desire were not fulfilled, their labours proved to be in vain ; because the children of Holy Church chose death for Christ's sake rather than to live in godless-ness : and they reckoned it better for their flesh to be punished, rather than their souls ruined, so that their portion were not with the Jews. And when the unclean Jews saw the steadfast uprightness of the Christians and their immovable faith, then they were agitated with lively ire, like evil beasts, and thereupon imagined another plot. As of old they bought the Lord from the Jews with silver, so they purchased Christians out of the reservoir ; for they gave the Persians silver, and they bought a Christian and slew him like a sheep. The Christians however rejoiced because they were being slain for Christ's sake and shed their blood for His blood, and took on themselves death in return for His death. . .

When the people were carried into Persia, and the Jews were left in Jerusalem, they began with their own hands to demolish and burn such of the holy churches as were left standing. . . .
We know from letters of the man appointed over the city that the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, Gologtha, the churches at Sion and the Chapel of the Ascension were damaged.

The army went through Palestine and destroyed monasteries, scattering or killing the monks.

As part of this war, an army of perhaps 20,000 Jewish men took a march toward Tyre, invited by the Jewish population in the city. The aim was to take the city on the night of Pascha or Easter. The inhabitants of the city learned of the army and took many Jews in Tyre hostage. The army beseiged the city and destroyed the churches around the city. This resulted in the slaughter of thousands of the Jewish prisoners in reprisal, which resulted in the lifting of the siege.

Ironically, the Persians switched sides in 617 and aligned against the Jews, and eventually the land was recaptured, and a persecution of the Jews was executed in reprisal.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/4356-chosroes-khosru-ii-parwiz

The whole thing is a perfect witness against the senselessness and stupidity of it all.

Neon R
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Win At Life said:

Neon R said:

Win At Life said:

Quote:

So do we condemn the Jews for being equally antagonistic towards Christians for the same time period?
I'm interested in seeing any of your examples of Christians deaths at the hands of Jews during this time period.

There are numerous examples. I believe in these modern times it's referred to as the "blood libel"
Wait a minute.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_libel

You are accusing the Jewish community of a campaign to murder Christians and use their human blood to make masztah for Passover?

You actually believe this?

I'll give you a moment to re-think your position.


I am saying that they were convicted of doing this throughout the centuries. Across many different nations
Zobel
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AG
Anyway the point perhaps is that human beings are capable of great cruelty and have a penchant for intolerance, especially on religious grounds, and that neither Jews nor Christians are exempt from it. But we should condemn violence against other human beings as unchristian and wrong, because it violates our commandment to love our enemies.
PacifistAg
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AG
k2aggie07 said:

Anyway the point perhaps is that human beings are capable of great cruelty and have a penchant for intolerance, especially on religious grounds, and that neither Jews nor Christians are exempt from it. But we should condemn violence against other human beings as unchristian and wrong, because it violates our commandment to love our enemies.
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