I hope I don't sound dismissive of any faith, but I really do feel that denominations that don't practice infant baptism or real presence in the eucharist tend to minimize the work of the Holy spirit or lean into gnostic ways because they want to feel so badly...whereas with the miracles of baptism and communion being a weekly occurrence, I don't necessarily feel worried if my spine doesn't get a tingly sensation every time I say a prayer. It's matter of fact that He is present.

I'm not sure if that was well expressed.

You should make a hard distinction between religion and Faith.

A dear mentor of mine taught me -- you can get sick from religion in any denomination, even in Orthodoxy. People who come to Church for any reason other than to follow Christ...to avoid sickness, to get material blessings, whatever...can get sick with religion. They can get caught up in emotional response, much like you say about the liturgy.

However! I think the liturgical experience as "moving" is actually not what is taught in the Orthodox Church. Emotions are suspect and we can be manipulated by them. A person who is "feeling" a response is often told by a spiritual Father - ignore it, it is delusion!

We do not come to the liturgy for the liturgy. We come to the liturgy for one purpose only, and that is communion with Christ. The liturgy is a means to that end, but our doctrine is quite clear: the liturgy is action on God's part. That's why we call it the Divine Liturgy. I mean, it even begins with the confession - "it is time for the Lord to act". He is the priest, He is the sacrifice, He is the true worship, He is the knowledge. It is all about communing with Him, first through the Liturgy of the Word, and then through the Liturgy of the Faithful. I think many people have completely lost sight of this, have even completely forgotten the true meaning of Holy Communion. We come to die, we come to offer ourselves as living sacrifices to Christ. This is not a feel-good thing, this isn't about happiness but joy, mourning, humility, sacrifice. We say, "we commend ourselves and each other and our whole lives to Christ our God". We "fill up in our flesh what is lacking of the sufferings of Christ" (Col 1:24).

The Divine Liturgy is not the experience of the spirit, but a means to that end. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is characterized first and foremost by joy, and by spiritual fruits. Unity, love, humility, meekness, patience, and so on.

What does St Paul say? "Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in youunless indeed you fail the test? But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test."

swimmerbabe11 said:

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I hope I don't sound dismissive of any faith, but I really do feel that denominations that don't practice infant baptism or real presence in the eucharist tend to minimize the work of the Holy spirit or lean into gnostic ways because they want to feel so badly...whereas with the miracles of baptism and communion being a weekly occurrence, I don't necessarily feel worried if my spine doesn't get a tingly sensation every time I say a prayer. It's matter of fact that He is present.

I'm not sure if that was well expressed.

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I'm curious what you mean by "gnostic ways" as Gnosticism as I'm familiar with it is long dead.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but I think it's pretty unfair to assert that the the work of the Spirit is minimized in the absence of these particular practices. The Holy Spirit is in me and works through me all the time; I don't believe I need anything else to have that presence.

St Clement of Rome:

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Content with the provision which God had made for you, and carefully attending to His words, you were inwardly filled with His doctrine, and His sufferings were before your eyes. Thus a profound and abundant peace was given to you all, and you had an insatiable desire for doing good, while a full outpouring of the Holy Spirit was upon you all. Full of holy designs, you did, with true earnestness of mind and a godly confidence, stretch forth your hands to God Almighty, beseeching Him to be merciful unto you, if you had been guilty of any involuntary transgression.
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Why are there strifes, and tumults, and divisions, and schisms, and wars among you? Have we not [all] one God and one Christ? Is there not one Spirit of grace poured out upon us? And have we not one calling in Christ?
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Joy and gladness will you afford us, if you become obedient to the words written by us and through the Holy Spirit root out the lawless wrath of your jealousy according to the intercession which we have made for peace and unity in this letter.

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He also speaks several times of the Scriptures as utterances of the Spirit, of St Paul writing under the inspiration of the Spirit, and of the Apostles proving bishops by the Spirit.

St Ignatius wrote of the Spirit in a similar sense as above, and as was his style was generally emphasizing the union the Spirit brings.

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Study, therefore, to be established in the doctrines of the Lord and the apostles, that so all things, whatsoever you do, may prosper both in the flesh and spirit; in faith and love; in the Son, and in the Father, and in the Spirit; in the beginning and in the end; with your most admirable bishop, and the well-compacted spiritual crown of your presbytery, and the deacons who are according to God. Be subject to the bishop, and to one another, as Jesus Christ to the Father, according to the flesh, and the apostles to Christ, and to the Father, and to the Spirit; that so there may be a union both fleshly and spiritual.

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And in another..

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For though some would have deceived me according to the flesh, yet the Spirit, as being from God, is not deceived. For it knows both whence it comes and whither it goes, and detects the secrets [of the heart]. For, when I was among you, I cried, I spoke with a loud voice: Give heed to the bishop, and to the presbytery and deacons. Now, some suspected me of having spoken thus, as knowing beforehand the division caused by some among you. But He is my witness, for whose sake I am in bonds, that I got no intelligence from any man. But the Spirit proclaimed these words: Do nothing without the bishop; keep your bodies as the temples of God; love unity; avoid divisions; be the followers of Jesus Christ, even as He is of His Father.

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St Justin most often writes of the Spirit as the prophetic Spirit of the OT repeatedly but he also clearly identifies the Spirit as worthy of worship and adoration, and identifies the Spirit as Christ, saying "It is wrong, therefore, to understand the Spirit and the power of God as anything else than the Word, who is also the first-born of God, as the foresaid prophet Moses declared; and it was this which, when it came upon the virgin and overshadowed her, caused her to conceive, not by intercourse, but by power."

In Dialogue with Trypho he writes "For the Holy Spirit called those who receive remission of sins through Him, His garments; among whom He is always present in power, but will be manifestly present at His second coming"

Also more relevant to your question, St Justin says

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...having received their rest in Him, should again, as had been predicted, become gifts which, from the grace of His Spirit's power, He imparts to those who believe in Him, according as He deems each man worthy thereof...Now, it is possible to see among us women and men who possess gifts of the Spirit of God.

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St Irenaeus also speaks of the Spirit as that of the voice of prophecy in the OT. He says

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For, after our Lord rose from the dead, [the apostles] were invested with power from on high when the Holy Spirit came down [upon them], were filled from all [His gifts], and had perfect knowledge: they departed to the ends of the earth, preaching the glad tidings of the good things [sent] from God to us, and proclaiming the peace of heaven to men, who indeed do all equally and individually possess the Gospel of God.

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He writes of the Spirit as that of Truth, true Faith, and knowledge, saying

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the preaching of the Church is everywhere consistent, and continues in an even course, and receives testimony from the prophets, the apostles, and all the disciples...through the beginning, the middle, and the end, and through the entire dispensation of God, and that well-grounded system which tends to man's salvation, namely, our faith; which, having been received from the Church, we do preserve, and which always, by the Spirit of God, renewing its youth, as if it were some precious deposit in an excellent vessel, causes the vessel itself containing it to renew its youth also. For this gift of God has been entrusted to the Church, as breath was to the first created man, for this purpose, that all the members receiving it may be vivified; and the [means of] communion with Christ has been distributed throughout it, that is, the Holy Spirit, the earnest of incorruption, the means of confirming our faith, and the ladder of ascent to God. For in the Church, it is said, God has set apostles, prophets, teachers, and all the other means through which the Spirit works...For where the Church is, there is the Spirit of God; and where the Spirit of God is, there is the Church, and every kind of grace; but the Spirit is truth.

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He also writes

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But we do now receive a certain portion of His Spirit, tending towards perfection, and preparing us for incorruption, being little by little accustomed to receive and bear God; which also the apostle terms an earnest, that is, a part of the honour which has been promised us by God...This earnest, therefore, thus dwelling in us, renders us spiritual even now, and the mortal is swallowed up by immortality...This, however does not take place by a casting away of the flesh, but by the impartation of the Spirit. For those to whom [St Paul] was writing were not without flesh, but they were those who had received the Spirit of God, by which we cry, "Abba, Father." For if the earnest, gathering man into itself, does even now cause him to cry, Abba, Father, what shall the complete grace of the Spirit effect, which shall be given to men by God? It will render us like Him, and accomplish the will of the Father; for it shall make man after the image and likeness of God.

Those persons, then, who possess the earnest of the Spirit, and who are not enslaved by the lusts of the flesh, but are subject to the Spirit, and who in all things walk according to the light of reason, does the apostle properly term spiritual, because the Spirit of God dwells in them. Now, spiritual men shall not be incorporeal spirits; but our substance, that is, the union of flesh and spirit, receiving the Spirit of God, makes up the spiritual man. But those who do indeed reject the Spirit's counsel, and are the slaves of fleshly lusts, and lead lives contrary to reason, and who, without restraint, plunge headlong into their own desires, having no longing after the Divine Spirit, do live after the manner of swine and of dogs; these men, [I say], does the apostle very properly term carnal, because they have no thought of anything else except carnal things.

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Theophilus writes primarily of the Spirit as the Spirit of prophecy.

St Clement of Alexandria in his Instructor writes of the Spirit similarly to St Irenaeus:

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Being baptized, we are illuminated; illuminated, we become sons; being made sons, we are made perfect; being made perfect, we are made immortal. I, says He, have said that you are gods, and all sons of the Highest. This work is variously called grace, and illumination, and perfection, and washing: washing, by which we cleanse away our sins; grace, by which the penalties accruing to transgressions are remitted; and illumination, by which that holy light of salvation is beheld, that is, by which we see God clearly.
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also we who are baptized, having wiped off the sins which obscure the light of the Divine Spirit, have the eye of the spirit free, unimpeded, and full of light, by which alone we contemplate the Divine, the Holy Spirit flowing down to us from above...instruction leads to faith, and faith with baptism is trained by the Holy Spirit. For that faith is the one universal salvation of humanity, and that there is the same equality before the righteous and loving God, and the same fellowship between Him and all...

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Thats as far as I got, gotta put the kiddos to bed.

Sts Hippolytus and Cyprian both write about the Spirit as that of teacher of Knowledge, giver of Grace, the spirit of Prophecy, and source of unity.

St Cyprian writes, for example, "All indeed who attain to the divine gift and inheritance by the sanctification of baptism, therein put off the old man by the grace of the saving layer, and, renewed by the Holy Spirit from the filth of the old contagion, are purged by a second nativity." And in another place, "Have not prophets in earlier times, and subsequently apostles, told of these things? Have not they, full of the Holy Spirit, predicted the afflictions of the righteous, and always the injuries of the heathens?"

St Gregory the Great wrote of the Spirit as an enlightener and enabler: "For it is true that whosoever enters on the priesthood undertakes the office of a herald, so as to walk, himself crying aloud, before the coming of the judge who follows terribly. Wherefore, if the priest knows not how to preach, what voice of a loud cry shall the mute herald utter? For hence it is that the Holy Spirit sat upon the first pastors under the appearance of tongues because whomsoever He has filled, He himself at once makes eloquent." He also speaks of the Holy Spirit as that of granting actual sight and discernment, saying "The illumination of Divine inspiration, when it comes into a man's mind, shows it to itself by illuminating it, whereas before the coming of the Holy Spirit it both could entertain bad thoughts and knew not how to estimate them."

He also writes "The meek are to be admonished that they study to have also the zeal of righteousness: the passionate are to be admonished that to the zeal which they think they have they add meekness. For on this account the Holy Spirit has been manifested to us in a dove and in fire; because, to wit, all whom He fills He causes to show themselves as meek with the simplicity of the dove, and burning with the fire of zeal. He then is in no wise full of the Holy Spirit, who either in the calm of meekness forsakes the fervor of zeal, or again in the ardor of zeal loses the virtue of meekness."

In his commentary on the Revelation, St Victorinus writes "For after the Lord ascended into heaven and opened all things, He sent the Holy Spirit, whose words the preachers sent forth as arrows reaching to the human heart, that they might overcome unbelief." He also says the write robes on the souls of the slain signify the gift of the Holy Spirit.

That generally gets us through the Ante-Nicene Fathers, though there are more and I'm sure I missed some.

I guess I would summarize their writing about the Holy Spirit as:

- The voice of the prophets in the OT
- The giver of grace to be illumined, sanctified, and deified
- The giver of knowledge, understanding, discernment
- The source of unity and peace for believers

Hope that was helpful.

I think you might be setting the bar high, or maybe in the wrong place. The witness of the Fathers - which are in perfect harmony with the NT - is that the evidence of the Spirit for a Christian is knowledge, vivifying grace, unity, and spiritual growth. I don't think the evidence of the Spirit for any given Christian is miracles and prophecy. These things are, were, always the exception.

How many prophets do we have in the OT? 80 maybe? Across centuries? And we know there is no new revelation, Christ's coming and the sending of the Spirit are it... the Pentecost shadow as first fruits to the kingdom is fulfilled in Pentecost today, it is the 8th day in the sense of the day after the "week of weeks" of Pascha.

There are maybe a dozen or so prophets named in the NT. And we're told that not all have these miracles, and as I said, St John Climacus writes that these kinds of gifts are for those who have been found worthy and have gone after them (echoing St Justin above). Throughout Church history these things are rare, but not unheard of.

I don't know. I mean, I think if we take the quite-scriptural standard of - divine knowledge, grace, unity, spiritual growth (or any of the fruits of the Spirit listed in the NT) - the Spirit is alive and well in the Church. The standard of unity, of Divine Providence over doctrines, etc is amazingly evident in Holy Tradition. I romped through some 400 years above, and one thing that struck me was how uniform their writing was about the Spirit, and about unity.

Let's flip the script. What is ordinary without the Spirit of God in our lives in a real way? What does the unenlightened man, the foolish, the man of this world live like? For their bellies, for satiety, for money and transient pleasures, for wealth, greed, and so on.

The Spirit is that of Truth, the guard against injustice, evil, greed, and every bad thing that is so often present around us. I don't think I see "ordinary" the same way you do.

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You have put into words (with a lot of supportive verses) what I have struggled with for a long time as a believer.

Why has the "word of God" which created the whole universe been reduced to a "gentle whisper". My goodness, the power of speaking universe into existence is incredible, unimaginable, amazing. And now it is simply a whisper?

Why? As a believer, who do you long to know more than anything???? Your creator!!! The one who spoke life into existence. And you read in the Bible people talking to God directly. So why so quiet now?

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You are correct that the miraculous gifts of the Spirit, including prophecy, were rare in the OT, but not completely unknown as the seem to be today. Why are they completely unknown today?

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Point of distinction here. Prophecy is done, because the prophets all foretold Christ. There are no new prophets, in the proper sense (or OT sense). That being said, there are many cases of saints with clear sight and prophetic visions and dreams, even today. They are not completely unknown.

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The miraculous gifts of the Spirit were not rare in the NT, but were common, so common that the apostles spent a fair amount of space in their letters discussing how they were to be exercised. Again, why are those miraculous gifts unknown today?

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Again, I think you're looking at the gifts of the Spirit and more or less saying, "yeah, I'm not impressed".

I think that to some extent the manifestation of the Holy Spirit has guided the Church from individual prophetic homilies and teachings to divine theology. There is no need, for example, for prophetic inspiration against Arianism. St Gregory the Theologian had divine or prophetic insight into the nature of the godhead and spoke about it debating with the heretics in his theological orations. In the early Church, people would stand and speak "according to their strength" as St Justin says. This was a sort of organic worship, but these inspired prayers and teachings became the various families of liturgies that were later edited or compiled into our two modern forms of the Divine Liturgy. The form of the Liturgy was essentially fixed less than 50 years after the end of the persecution of the Church in the Roman empire. In other words, we move from grace to grace, but we do so always by the inspiration of the Spirit.

Every Liturgy is a direct and immediate manifestation of the Spirit, a receipt of grace par excellence, it is "sanctified by the word of God and prayer" and every person who partakes becomes a living icon of Christ, to the extent that they can receive it.

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Paul uses the presence of the Holy Spirit as an absolute test of being a Christian in vs. 9. In v. 16 he describes how the Spirit bears witness with our spirit. Surely that is more than a mere ephemeral feeling or unity on doctrine? In v. 26 he describes how the Spirit "helps us in our weakness." Why, then, do so many Christians struggle with weaknesses that defeat them that they would gladly eradicate? Weaknesses such as alcoholism, lust, addiction, lack of love, and so forth? Paul clearly is not simply referencing the unity of the Church, which may well be a by-product of the Spirit, but much, much more than that.

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I belong to Christ, and indeed we sing at every baptism, and on certain feast days, as many as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ!

You're chopping and cutting and missing the whole point of verse 16! Work backwards to follow the logic. The Spirit bears witness, yes - it bears witness to our sonship, because it is by the Spirit that we dare to call upon God as Father, and those who are sons are led by the Spirit, and those who are led by the Spirit put to death the deeds of the body with the Spirit, and therefore they will live. Working forward from v16, we see that the Spirit bears witness that we are children, and heirs - and evidence of this is that we are heirs to both Christ's life and death. There's an inside-out paradox relationship here, centering on the Spirit bearing witness to us as children of God - and the evidence is suffering to life, by death to the self.

As for V26, he says before - all creation groans awaiting to be set free in the coming glory, and we groan in this expectation and struggle even though we have the firstfruits of the Spirit! He says, we hope for what we do not see, and in this struggle and travail and hope, "awaiting divine adoption as sons" the Spirit helps us. It is not magic.

The evidence of the Spirit, then, is not a magic cure all for sin but that saints may exist at all - or that people may even aspire to it! The struggle for righteousness, the hunger and thirsting, is evidence of the Spirit. But at the same time, the Spirit can be outraged (Hebrews 10:29). It can be quenched (1 Thessalonians 5:19). It can be grieved (Ephesians 4:30). We are God's fellow-workers (1 Corinthians 3:9) but even servants can work uselessly and foolishly (Luke 17:7-10).

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The spiritual gifts are listed in 1 Corinthians 12, and are described as "manifestations" of the Spirit. Doesn't that mean that they are something more than mere natural abilities? Doesn't it mean that Christians with those gifts should be distinguishable from non-Christians with those abilities? Shouldn't those gifts somehow manifest something of the supernatural about them?

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St Paul begins the passage on gifts with the explanation that even the ability to say "Jesus is Lord" is the gift of the Spirit.

You don't think that a Christian with the gift of wisdom, or knowledge, or faith is immediately and utterly distinct from non-Christians? You're looking past the amazing promises - those foretold in the OT - of the Spirit and wanting only miraculous signs. Isaiah 11 talks about the seven gifts of the Spirit: Wisdom, Understanding or Discernment, Counsel, Fortitude, Knowledge, Piety, and Fear of God. You skip right over those, and I don't know why.

St Paul concludes that passage by saying that not everyone will have certain gifts, but desire them - and then moves on to the more surpassing way, which is Love, as if to say - forget all of this, and remember that the only thing that matters is Love. "If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing."

All of these things that are the workings of the Spirit in this present age are said to end; but not Love. So perhaps we should actually say - the workings of the Church, the gifts of the Spirit are for the Church and to its members in particular. The individuals of the Church are for the edification of the Church (including administration, for example, which I suppose isn't particularly miraculous but a gift nonetheless). But the purpose of these gifts is to enable, support, lead people into truth and knowledge of God which results in and is manifested by love. Without love a person cannot know God; Christ Himself said this is the witness of the Church (John 13:35) and this is reiterated over and over (1 Peter 1:8; 1 John practically the whole letter).

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Paul reassures the Galatians in 5:5 that God "has given us the Spirit as a guarantee." What kind of guarantee is it if it's not readily apparent?

Paul also reassures the Galatians in 3:5 that God "supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you". Where are those miracles today that evidence the presence of the Holy Spirit? It does not appear to have been that rare an event at the time of the writing of Galatians.

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Gal 5:5 must be a misquote? "For through the Spirit, by faith, we eagerly await the hope of righteousness." I read that as saying, the Spirit enables our faith which gives us hope of righteousness, because, as he continues, the only thing that matters in Christ Jesus is faith working through love.


I don't know that I'd call chapter 3 reassurance. It is (forgive the phrase) a royal ass chewing. He says they're foolish, and having begun in the Spirit now start going to the flesh. After his chewing, and explaining to them their foolishness his reassures them that they have the Spirit, yes, in Chapter 5. But how? Again, like his letter to the Romans, by saying that walking by the Spirit puts to death the flesh, as they are in opposition. And he enumerates the works of the flesh, and says those who indulge in the flesh will not inherit the kingdom. On the other hand, those who live by the Spirit walk by the Spirit, and show that through love (first and foremost, eh?), joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.

Likewise with 1 John 3. The entire chapter is about love. We know that we have passed from death to life because we love one another, and a clean conscience allows us to approach God with confidence (as Father, this echoes Romans 8 and 1 Corinthians 13 perfectly). And, if we keep His commandments, He remains in us, and again the evidence of this is His Spirit. This is the same in chapter 4. In fact, verse 13 is really saying that our testimony and confession is evidence of the Spirit, along with love (see v6, and also identical to 1 Cor 12).

You are looking for one kind of evidence, but ignoring another. And also, I think, maybe not seeing the reason you do not see the evidence you want.

St Paul says the spirit works in him mightily. I have experienced this in my life, and I am no one. Again, the question I have, is if you do not see the Spirit working in your church the way it says over and over again in the NT that it does - in love, in righteous living, in gentleness, meekness, people hungering and thirsting after God, in faith... why do you expect to see it working miracles?

This is what I mean by setting the bar too high, or in the wrong place. People have trouble with basic teaching, with spiritual milk, and you're asking why there's no meat.

Again, I quote St Paul - "Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you - unless indeed you fail the test? But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test." The Church exists to make saints, not work miracles. Go to the Church where you see evidence of the Church - which is led by the Spirit - making saints. That's what the fathers wrote about in those passages. The Spirit leading to knowledge and righteousness.

I don't mean this as a criticism. You're asking the question. What conclusion do you draw?

Also. I have felt the Spirit emanating from someone. Not Orthodox, incidentally. It was palpable, tangible. She was an absolutely lovely woman that I worked with at a church program, and I have zero doubt in my mind she was a saint. And what I felt was that same spirit of gentleness, goodness, love, kindness, patience, peace. I did not need her to work miracles, but it would not have surprised me in any way if she did, simply and in humility.