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Within the non-charismatic evangelical church, we see absolutely nothing today that even remotely resembles the actions of the Holy Spirit as described throughout the New Testament, and no one can actually describe what the presence of the Holy Spirit "feels" like, or what evidences exist for its presence.

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Rom. 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

No, we don't speak in tongues, heal people, or dance around "in the Spirit" like a bunch of idiots. For us, the presence of the Spirit means putting to death the deeds of the body.

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One reason I ask is that much of the New Testament assumes the reality of the Holy Spirit's presence as proof of what the author is saying

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Also, this purpose has been fulfilled. The canon is closed and there is no need for the Spirit to use extraordinary means to verify an apostle's message.

I don't know what the church "fathers" have to say about the removal of YHWH's power from the people, but there is a good example of this happening before. YHWH worked miracles every day for the Israelites in the wilderness and miraculously caused the walls of Jericho to fall and the city taken without a single Israeli life lost.

Joshua 6:16-20; The seventh time around, when the priests sounded the trumpet blast, Joshua commanded the army, "Shout! For the Lord has given you the city! The city and all that is in it are to be devoted to the Lord. Only Rahab the prostitute and all who are with her in her house shall be spared, because she hid the spies we sent. But keep away from the devoted things, so that you will not bring about your own destruction by taking any of them. Otherwise you will make the camp of Israel liable to destruction and bring trouble on it. All the silver and gold and the articles of bronze and iron are sacred to the Lord and must go into his treasury." When the trumpets sounded, the army shouted, and at the sound of the trumpet, when the men gave a loud shout, the wall collapsed; so everyone charged straight in, and they took the city.

But, because just one man disobeyed YHWH directions, they were defeated and 36 died in the next campaign.

Joshua 7:1-12; But the Israelites were unfaithful in regard to the devoted things; Achan son of Karmi, the son of Zimri, the son of Zerah, of the tribe of Judah, took some of them. So the Lord's anger burned against Israel. Now Joshua sent men from Jericho to Ai, which is near Beth Aven to the east of Bethel, and told them, "Go up and spy out the region." So the men went up and spied out Ai. When they returned to Joshua, they said, "Not all the army will have to go up against Ai. Send two or three thousand men to take it and do not weary the whole army, for only a few people live there." So about three thousand went up; but they were routed by the men of Ai, who killed about thirty-six of them. They chased the Israelites from the city gate as far as the stone quarries and struck them down on the slopes. At this the hearts of the people melted in fear and became like water. Then Joshua tore his clothes and fell facedown to the ground before the ark of the Lord, remaining there till evening. The elders of Israel did the same, and sprinkled dust on their heads. And Joshua said, "Alas, Sovereign Lord, why did you ever bring this people across the Jordan to deliver us into the hands of the Amorites to destroy us? If only we had been content to stay on the other side of the Jordan! Pardon your servant, Lord. What can I say, now that Israel has been routed by its enemies? The Canaanites and the other people of the country will hear about this and they will surround us and wipe out our name from the earth. What then will you do for your own great name?" The Lord said to Joshua, "Stand up! What are you doing down on your face? Israel has sinned; they have violated my covenant, which I commanded them to keep. They have taken some of the devoted things; they have stolen, they have lied, they have put them with their own possessions. That is why the Israelites cannot stand against their enemies; they turn their backs and run because they have been made liable to destruction.

YHWH specifically says the loss of their previous miraculous protection was due to just one man's disobedience. IMO, the disobedience of the NT "church" in things like abolishing His Sabbath (one of the 10 commandments, no less) is at least as egregious as what Achan did. YHWH Yeshua HaMashiach is not asking for great and arduous things from His people. What Achan did was simple. And it was simple to NOT do it. Keeping the Sabbath is simple. But His people will not do the simple things He is asking them to do.

Deuteronomy 30:11-14; Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

It was simple then. And it's simple now. It was simple from the beginning in the Garden of Eden. And it will be simple in the end. However, the story of mankind is that they will not do the simple things YHWH asks them to do. Many will scoff. Many will make excuses. Many will twist His words to their liking. But few will simply follow. Which one do you simply choose to be?

Shalom.

Hey JJMt, I'm not sure I understand exactly the question. I mean, for Orthodox believers, we say that the Holy Spirit is present and active in every liturgy... that the Spirit personally guides and leads the church in an active way. It's the person of God who illumines and works in every Christian. I don't think you can get through even a few moments of typical orthodox praxis before encountering theology about what the Spirit does for us. It illumines, guides, informs, heals, and comforts us. Every prayer and service we pray for the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth to come abide in us and cleanse us from every stain and save our souls. The Spirit is who is actively involved in our lives on a day to day basis

Not Orthodox but that is how I have always viewed the Holy Spirit also. And I can feel it especially when I am with other believers.

This is a very honest question OP. I have struggled to understand the same myself as a Christian over the years. We read about the Holy Spirit coming in power, but I rarely feel it nor do I see it much in my church or other believers. Nobody that I know has raised the dead or healed the blind. Why not??? Our God is the creator of the whole universe. Why is His Spirit within us so quiet??

I think Christianity is far more maximal and radical than the vast majority of people these days are willing to do. I include myself in that. St John Climacus makes a comment in the Ladder that those miraculous gifts of healing and whatnot are seen by monastics. I thought about that for a good while when I read it, but I suppose it's true. By monastic I think we have to understand those who are all in, who have truly becomes exiles to the world, are sojourners...people who truly love God more than anything else. Wife, kids, money, mother and father. When one young man says he has to bury his father Christ says let the dead bury their own dead. The world is full of dead people, Christianity tells us only one thing matters and is needful Very few people reach this level of struggle. I don't think most people these days even realize it is to be aspired.

There's more to consider perhaps. Some miracles need prayer and fasting. Christ set the example for both. Constant prayer, constantly doing only the will of the Father, arduous fasting. These simply aren't done any more.

The work of God, these miraculous signs, are for the enlightened and blessed and friends of God. Not all Christians are, unfortunately. Even in the parables, some servants are useless and thrown out bust some are just middlin'. It's not the mediocre servant who gets even more talents. So faith in proportion is at hand.

Read the beatitudes. Do they describe you? They don't describe me. Or Christ's simple command - love the Lord your God with all your heart mind soul and strength and love your neighbor as yourself. Do you? I don't.

I wonder at all of this in my own life. I think that miracles are like step 20 and most of us are struggling at step 1.

No no, don't I never said most of what you just wrote. I didn't say that the Spirit wasn't poured out on all, but that these manifest signs and wonders are not. Or that at least they are done in proportion to the faith of the one coworking with God.

I don't know why you say the Spirit is unfelt and unknown. But if you want to know why, I think it's because like for the Prophet Isaiah the Spirit is a still small voice. Who takes time to pray every day, to "be still and know I am the Lord"? To calm our spirits like a weaned child? Truly perhaps Psalm 131 is the answer here. Those of us still struggling for that calm are looking for things to great and glorious for ourselves.

The Spirit makes Christians different. I know I am different when I'm coworking with God, to struggle, hunger, thirst for righteousness. When I am focused on Him above all things, I am different. In an age of paganism when Christianity was the exception and blas cultural Christianity not the rule, the Spirit of leading these people was different. Read Athenagoras' plea. PS St John also says love is conclusive evidence that a person knows God. Do you love others? I don't, not very well anyway.

Also, when I say monastics I don't mean monks in a precise sense but those who left everything to follow the Lord. And there have always been those who have forsaken the world for Him.

And to the last paragraph, no no. This isn't a question of good enough or legalism. It's a question of how much do YOU or how much to I want to do? The gifts are there in abundance, He wants us to take them. But many times we prefer the pigpen of babylon to the Father's feast, eating worse than the pigs. Psalm 137 has a curse the psalmist invokes on himself if he doesn't remember God and Jerusalem over his chief joy. We are in Babylon, but do we weep for our estrangement from God and paradise? St Gregory says not everyone can be a priest or a bishop or a monk, or do miracles or give money to the poor. But tears are for everyone. So before we say, God let us do great things, I think we have to say, Lord have mercy and repent for our sins, submit to His will above all things, and be led into the life He wants.

I don't know specifically what you're looking for to be answered. What specific issue? Can you make it a bit more direct of a question?

They write that the Spirit guides and leads. For example St Clement writes: "Joy and gladness will you afford us, if you become obedient to the words written by us and through the Holy Spirit root out the lawless wrath of your jealousy..."

There are technical treatises on the Spirit by St Gregory during the heresies around whether the Spirit was God or not.

I mean in some sense perhaps everything written about the life of a Christian is an answer to your question.

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I have never experienced the Holy Spirit in the manner that the Holy Spirit is described in the NT.

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You mean the book of Acts. Not the entire New Testament. Outside the book of Acts (which describes extraordinary gifts in order to verify that there IS a change in testament), the Spirit helps with sin, holiness, righteousness, our weakness, sanctification, love, wisdom, understanding, etc.

The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.

Have you experienced that? If not, then you are right, you have not experienced the Holy Spirit and you are not a Christian.

Yes, the whole passage is a little judgy.

16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy,[d] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do[e] such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

I don't see a question there. Are you asking why there are you've never seen a miracle? Or why the Spirit doesn't talk to you face to face like a friend? Or are you saying you've never felt the work of God in your life?

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My faith is largely one of belief and faith, almost an intellectual belief.

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I think this is a common outcome for people raised in the cultural protests t faith. Me included. Especially when that culture pushes a once saved always saved - binary sense of salvation. I don't say I'm saved now, and I see Christ moving in my life today in ways I never would have understood or even noticed years ago when I became a Christian. It's an ongoing experiential thing. Do you believe in tables? Yes. Why? Because you sit at one every day. Do you believe in Everest? Of course. But not the same way, because you've never been there. There's a difference. You have to go.

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The NT writers, however, spoke of a deeply personal and powerful experience with the Holy Spirit.

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Ok.. so we're talking about a handful of men. Do you think these powerful gifts and signs were for everyone? Manifestly no, not everyone got these gifts. Some folks were feet and others eyes, says St Paul. Why were the signs given? So that you may believe. Same reason St John wrote his gospel. But Christ also says blessed are those who have not seen and believe.

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It wasn't something like a still small voice, but rather was very, very apparent. Again, the Spirit manifested itself through them in readily apparent and not otherwise explainable gifts, in miracles, and in speaking to them in a way that removed any doubt whatsoever of the presence of Christ within themselves.

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I think this is a false dichotomy. The still small voice is how He reveals himself. He is the lamb, gentle, meek, lowly, humble. Yes, powerful beyond comprehension but not in the way we expect. The Pharisees asked for a sign and He said more or less even if you see one you wont believe. The only sign is that of Jonah, of the resurrection. When Christ heals the blind man he says the man wasn't blind because of sin but so that God can be glorified. So this takes a two way street, a person who is a willing vessel for this kind of action (Christ says - do you want to be healed?) and also the will of God for this to take place and a willing worker. Christ says as long as it is daytime -we- must do the works of the Father. It's us with Him - "apart from me you can do nothing". Which means we have to be prepared, willing, not of two minds or ineffective faith. But we also have to be with Him.

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I am nothing and nobody in Christ and this is not bragging but I have felt the presence of the Spirit in me in a real and amazing way. And I know of others who have experienced this. Booboo has talked about this from his own perspective.

JJMt said:

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I don't know how to be more specific or clear than I have been. gordo, above, understood exactly what I was asking.

It's interesting that you don't understand. I'm not sure of the significance, but I do think that it is significant.

One last try. I am a person who has diligently sought God much of my life. However, like all Christians, I have frequently failed. But in diligently seeking God, I have never experienced the Holy Spirit in the manner that the Holy Spirit is described in the NT. My faith is largely one of belief and faith, almost an intellectual belief. The NT writers, however, spoke of a deeply personal and powerful experience with the Holy Spirit. It wasn't something like a still small voice, but rather was very, very apparent. Again, the Spirit manifested itself through them in readily apparent and not otherwise explainable gifts, in miracles, and in speaking to them in a way that removed any doubt whatsoever of the presence of Christ within themselves.

Nothing you've described, or is commonly described in Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant churches today (other than in charismatic churches) even comes close to how the Holy Spirit is described in the New Testament.

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I understand your predicament ("My faith is largely one of belief and faith, almost an intellectual belief."), and it's part of the reason I eventually became Orthodox. I read the Bible and prayed but never felt much of anything. Maybe other people are different, I certainly can't speak for anyone but myself.

But it wasn't until I began living a more maximally Christian lifestyle (fasting, attending Liturgy, intercessory prayers, talking with my spiritual father in addition to reading Scripture and personal prayer rule) that I began to feel the Holy Spirit. But to the level of the early Church in the NT? No. I am not working miracles or anything like that. But the apostles and early followers of Christ gave up everything to follow Him.

That's the point k2 is making. I think he directly answered your question. His point is: How are we going to feel the Holy Spirit or see/experience its miracles and fruits when we've reduced Christianity into the most minimal lifestyle possible, a simple intellectual assertion followed by turning around and live a worldly lifestyle like everyone else? If our lives are no different than the average atheist in all material respects, then how would we get any other result?

I can't speak for Protestant and Catholic posters, but the Holy Spirit you describe is alive and well in Orthodoxy, in the Liturgy and in monastic communities. There are many, many examples, gifts, and miracles. I avoid discussing things here because the work of the Holy Spirit is foolishness to the world.

St. Ambrose wrote 3 books on the Holy Spirit. I've linked the text below. A great deal of it is trinitarian apologetics, so you might not find what you are looking for there....but it is very good to read.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/34021.htm



St. Augustine says

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[We, however, on our side affirm that the human will is so divinely aided in the pursuit of righteousness, that (in addition to man's being created with a free-will, and in addition to the teaching by which he is instructed how he ought to live) he receives the Holy Ghost, by whom there is formed in his mind a delight in, and a love of, that supreme and unchangeable good which is God, even now while he is still walking by faith and not yet by sight; 2 Corinthians 5:7 in order that by this gift to him of the earnest, as it were, of the free gift, he may conceive an ardent desire to cleave to his Maker, and may burn to enter upon the participation in that true light, that it may go well with him from Him to whom he owes his existence. A man's free-will, indeed, avails for nothing except to sin, if he knows not the way of truth; and even after his duty and his proper aim shall begin to become known to him, unless he also take delight in and feel a love for it, he neither does his duty, nor sets about it, nor lives rightly. Now, in order that such a course may engage our affections, God's love is shed abroad in our hearts, not through the free-will which arises from ourselves, but through the Holy Ghost, which is given to us. Romans 5:5

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his holy meditation preserves the children of men, who put their trust under the shadow of God's wings, so that they are drunken with the fatness of His house, and drink of the full stream of His pleasure. For with Him is the fountain of life, and in His light shall they see light. For He extends His mercy to them that know Him, and His righteousness to the upright in heart. He does not, indeed, extend His mercy to them because they know Him, but that they may know Him; nor is it because they are upright in heart, but that they may become so, that He extends to them His righteousness, whereby He justifies the ungodly. Romans 4:5 This meditation does not elevate with pride: this sin arises when any man has too much confidence in himself, and makes himself the chief end of living. Impelled by this vain feeling, he departs from that fountain of life, from the draughts of which alone is imbibed the holiness which is itself the good life and from that unchanging light, by sharing in which the reasonable soul is in a certain sense inflamed, and becomes itself a created and reflected luminary; even as John was a burning and a shining light, John 5:35who notwithstanding acknowledged the source of his own illumination in the words, Of His fullness have all we received. John 1:16 Whose, I would ask, but His, of course, in comparison with whom John indeed was no light at all? For that was the true light, which lights every man that comes into the world. John 1:9 Therefore, in the same psalm, after saying, Extend Your mercy to them that know You, and Your righteousness to the upright in heart, he adds, Let not the foot of pride come against me, and let not the hands of sinners move me. There have fallen all the workers of iniquity: they are cast out, and are not able to stand. Since by that impiety which leads each to attribute to himself the excellence which is God's, he is cast out into his own native darkness, in which consist the works of iniquity. For it is manifestly these works which he does, and for the achievement of such alone is he naturally fit. The works of righteousness he never does, except as he receives ability from that fountain and that light, where the life is that wants for nothing, and where is no variableness, nor the shadow of turning. James 1:17

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This is really good stuff from Augustine.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1502.htm



Ignatius said

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But the Holy Spirit does not speak His own things, but those of Christ, and that not from himself, but from the Lord; even as the Lord also announced to us the things that He received from the Father. For, says He, "the word which ye hear is not Mine, but the Father's, who sent Me." And says He of the Holy Spirit, "He shall not speak of Himself, but whatsoever things He shall hear from Me." And He says of Himself to the Father, "I have," says He, "glorified Thee upon the earth; I have finished the work which, Thou gavest Me; I have manifested Thy name to men." And of the Holy Ghost, "He shall glorify Me, for He receives of Mine."

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians Chapter IX

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Tertullian has a nice moment here

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If the Holy Ghost took upon Himself so great a concern for our instruction, that we might know from what everything was produced, would He not in like manner have kept us well informed about both the heaven and the earth, by indicating to us what it was that He made them of, if their original consisted of any material substance, so that the more He seemed to have made them of nothing, the less in fact was there as yet made, from which He could appear to have made them?

Against Hermogenes. Chapter XXII.This Conclusion Confirmed by the Usage of Holy Scripture in Its History of the Creation. Hermogenes in Danger of the Woe Pronounced Against Adding to Scripture.

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And Origen wrote this:

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Now, what the Holy Spirit is, we are taught in many passages of Scripture, as by David in the Psalm 51, when he says, "And take not Thy Holy Spirit from me;" and by Daniel, where it is said, "The Holy Spirit which is in thee." And in the New Testament we have abundant testimonies, as when the Holy Spirit is described as having descended upon Christ, and when the Lord breathed upon His apostles after His resurrection, saying, "Receive the Holy Spirit;" and the saying of the angel to Mary, "The Holy Spirit will come upon thee;" the declaration by Paul, that no one can call Jesus Lord, save by the Holy Spirit. In the Acts of the Apostles, the Holy Spirit was given by the imposition of the apostles' hands in baptism. From all which we learn that the person of the Holy Spirit was of such authority and dignity, that saving baptism was not complete except by the authority of the most excellent Trinity of them all, i.e., by the naming of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and by joining to the unbegotten God the Father, and to His only-begotten Son, the name also of the Holy Spirit. Who, then, is not amazed at the exceeding majesty of the Holy Spirit, when he hears that he who speaks a word against the Son of man may hope for forgiveness; but that he who is guilty of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit has not forgiveness, either in the present world or in that which is to come!
We are of opinion that this distinction may be observed in the Old Testament also, as when it is said, "He that giveth His Spirit to the people who are upon the earth, and Spirit to them who walk thereon." For, without doubt, every one who walks upon the earth (i.e., earthly and corporeal beings) is a partaker also of the Holy Spirit, receiving it from God. My Hebrew master also used to say that those two seraphim in Isaiah, which are described as having each six wings, and calling to one another, and saying, "Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God of hosts," were to be understood of the only-begotten Son of God and of the Holy Spirit. And we think that that expression also which occurs in the hymn of Habakkuk, "In the midst either of the two living things, or of the two lives, Thou wilt be known," ought to be understood of Christ and of the Holy Spirit. For all knowledge of the Father is obtained by revelation of the Son through the Holy Spirit, so that both of these beings which, according to the prophet, are called either "living things" or "lives," exist as the ground of the knowledge of God the Father.
For as it is said of the Son, that "no one knoweth the Father but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal Him," the same also is said by the apostle of the Holy Spirit, when He declares, "God hath revealed them to us by His Holy Spirit; for the Spirit searcheth all things, even the deep things of God;" and again in the Gospel, when the Saviour, speaking of the divine and profounder parts of His teaching, which His disciples were not yet able to receive, thus addresses them: "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now; but when the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, is come, He will teach you all things, and will bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." We must understand, therefore, that as the Son, who alone knows the Father, reveals Him to whom He will, so the Holy Spirit, who alone searches the deep things of God, reveals God to whom He will: "For the Spirit bloweth where He listeth." We are not, however, to suppose that the Spirit derives His knowledge through revelation from the Son. For if the Holy Spirit knows the Father through the Son's revelation, He passes from a state of ignorance into one of knowledge; but it is alike impious and foolish to confess the Holy Spirit, and yet to ascribe to Him ignorance. For even although something else existed before the Holy Spirit, it was not by progressive advancement that He came to be the Holy Spirit; as if any one should venture to say, that at the time when He was not yet the Holy Spirit He was ignorant of the Father, but that after He had received knowledge He was made the Holy Spirit. For if this were the case, the Holy Spirit would never be reckoned in the Unity of the Trinity, i.e., along with the unchangeable Father and His Son, unless He had always been the Holy Spirit. When we use, indeed, such terms as "always" or "was," or any other designation of time, they are not to be taken absolutely, but with due allowance; for while the significations of these words relate to time, and those subjects of which we speak are spoken of by a stretch of language as existing in time, they nevertheless surpass in their real nature all conception of the finite understanding.
Nevertheless it seems proper to inquire what is the reason why he who is regenerated by God unto salvation has to do both with Father and Son and Holy Spirit, and does not obtain salvation unless with the co-operation of the entire Trinity; and why it is impossible to become partaker of the Father or the Son without the Holy Spirit. And in discussing these subjects, it will undoubtedly be necessary to describe the special working of the Holy Spirit, and of the Father and the Son. I am of opinion, then, that the working of the Father and of the Son takes place as well in saints as in sinners, in rational beings and in dumb animals; nay, even in those things which are without life, and in all things universally which exist; but that the operation of the Holy Spirit does not take place at all in those things which are without life, or in those which, although living, are yet dumb; nay, is not found even in those who are endued indeed with reason, but are engaged in evil courses, and not at all converted to a better life. In those persons alone do I think that the operation of the Holy Spirit takes place, who are already turning to a better life, and walking along the way which leads to Jesus Christ, i.e., who are engaged in the performance of good actions, and who abide in God.
Origen De Principiis. Book I Chapter III On the Holy Spirit Section 4 and 5

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The one time someone asks for a bunch of quotes and no one supplies... kinda funny.

swimmerbabe11 said:

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I think what you are really looking for is examples of the church fathers talking about feeling weary in their faith.
Reminders that even when we don't "feel" God's presence that he is there.

I do believe in spiritual gifts, they just arent' the same type of gifts that presented themselves in the old testament. God didn't gift me with crazy skills of apologetics, like he did some on the board.. but put me in a room with 100 people..and the one person who is troubled/suicidal/in need of love...that person will inevitably find their way to me. Some people have resting b--- face, I have resting "come poor stranger and confide in me" face, which presents the opportunity to often share God's word. I *feel* the presence of the Lord in those moments, even when I really don't want to be in them (looking at you homeless crazy guy of Thanksgiving 2018)

I'm struggling right now to find the words in the right way..especially since I have been recently struggling in the "feeling" part of my faith as of late. It's a good reminder that God forgives and loves us even when we don't feel forgiven and loved.

Sometimes, because I love people very hard and my friends, family, and even my work ask that I give quite a lot of myself emotionally, I end up feeling very very drained. Nothing left to feel for myself or for God..but when I feel like I am slipping in that way, the best thing to do is pray. Pray even when you don't feel like it, pray even when you don't want to.

On my knees next to my bed, this is the best prayer I can pray for my spiritual health.

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Lord Jesus, I believe. Help my unbelief! Strengthen my weak and flickering faith. I know that You are my wisdom, my righteousness, my sanctification, and my redemption. Lord, strengthen this faith in me, that I may never fear nor faint in any trial or temptation. You alone are the Author and Finisher of my faith. Though my faith be tried with fire, may I ever be found strong and unmovable to the glory of Your holy name. Let me firmly trust in Your blood, which cleanses me from all sin, that though my sins are as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow. When I am enticed by sin and the world beckons and my own passions want to yield, help my unbelief, and give me the strength and will to resist. When trials, sorrow, and affliction want to rob me of this trust, O Lord, help me to remain steadfast and true. Strengthen my faith in Your promise that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them that are called according to Your purpose to be Your own here in time and there in eternity. You, O almighty Lord, can help; You, O gracious Lord, will help my unbelief; You, O merciful Lord, will strengthen my faith. Lord, I believe!. Amen.

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My faith teaches that sanctification is the proof of justification... that we can take no credit for the good that we do, rather that is the Holy Spirit working in us, to create the fruits of our faith. So when you pray, when you tithe, when you help the old lady across the street...all that is evidence of the Holy Spirit.

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Amen. And you and I seem to be a lot alike as my life and thoughts are much like yours. I get fatigued also and have to withdraw sometimes. Used to make me feel guilty but the Lord cleansed me of those thoughts.

Your question is One I struggled with mightily for some time before finding my own personal answer. I can tell you that I have had experiences similar to those mentioned in the NT. I have felt the Holy Spirit and it is a sensation and a power that once you feel you can never deny. Once you feel it, you know for a certainty of the truth and would die before denying the truth of it.

I would be willing to share those experiences, if you want to hear them. Just let m know one way or another and I will post an email account where you can reach me.

As an aside I promise not to try to convert you to whatever sect of Christianity I belong to. I am not a big evangelical. For me, my experience with the gospel is a deeply personal one that I don't much like talking about in public forums. Which is why I lurk here and don't post often.

However it seems like you have some very honest and earnest questions similar to those that I had and I wanted to offer to share if you want to hear.

Ags4DaWin said:

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Your question is One I struggled with mightily for some time before finding my own personal answer. I can tell you that I have had experiences similar to those mentioned in the NT. I have felt the Holy Spirit and it is a sensation and a power that once you feel you can never deny. Once you feel it, you know for a certainty of the truth and would die before denying the truth of it.

I would be willing to share those experiences, if you want to hear them. Just let m know one way or another and I will post an email account where you can reach me.

As an aside I promise not to try to convert you to whatever sect of Christianity I belong to. I am not a big evangelical. For me, my experience with the gospel is a deeply personal one that I don't much like talking about in public forums. Which is why I lurk here and don't post often.

However it seems like you have some very honest and earnest questions similar to those that I had and I wanted to offer to share if you want to hear.

Edit- I will leave this up for a few minutes so that anyone interested can email me.

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That is my experience also.

JJMt said:

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While I agree with that completely, that cannot fully or adequately describe the work and presence of the Holy Spirit within us, can it? Many non-Christians pray, tithe and help old ladies. There is nothing unique about those actions that demonstrate God's awesome power or the comfort of Christ's presence in our lives.

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The answers I receive here seem to me to be people trying to argue that the Emperor really is clothed when in fact he's not. People give their own personal work-arounds to the question, rather than providing scriptural evidences or practical, real-life guidance. We so want the Bible to be true, and believe that it is true, that we manufacture evidence or experience to equate to the NT demonstrations of the presence of the Holy Spirit. But the modern manufactured experiences seem to be a pale shadow of what the NT writers described.

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First of all, the Holy Spirit is subtle, even as recorded in scripture. Thouhg we occasionally see miracles, we more often see something like this:

Joshua 2:6-9 said:

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But [Rahab] had brought [the Israelite spies] up to the roof and hid them with the stalks of flax that she had laid in order on the roof. So the men pursued after them on the way to the Jordan as far as the fords. And the gate was shut as soon as the pursuers had gone out. Before the men lay down, she came to them on the roof and said to the men, "I know that the LORD has given you the land, and that the fear of you has fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land melt away before you.

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If you believe the Bible, you must believe that we have the Spirit (see John 14). To steal your metaphor, yes, we are working from the assumption that the emperor is clothed. Working from that assumption, we look for evidence of the Holy Spirit in our lives. I (I probably shouldn't generalize to "we" here, but I think others will agree with this) am more attuned to the Spirit's presence when I am dilligently seeking God, but it's always there. As an example, Martin mentioned the fruit of the spirit. About a year ago, I lost my job; I felt joy and peace. And I really liked that job. That's not normal.

So you are correct; people can do good things in the absence of the Sprit, but in the Spirit that goodness is natural. Are excited about the work you see God doing around you? Are you eager to know God better and be part of that work? Are you at peace in the knowledge that God is sovereign? That is all evidence of the Holy Spirit at work.

Less subtly, there have been three times in my life (so far) when the Spirit has gotten my attention with a glorious slap in the face. To me, those are the exceptions that confirm the rule. And for the most part, those examples have been correction, so it's not really something I want to experience daily.

Finally, please don't miss this:

swimmerbabe11 said:

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Sometimes, because I love people very hard and my friends, family, and even my work ask that I give quite a lot of myself emotionally, I end up feeling very very drained. Nothing left to feel for myself or for God..but when I feel like I am slipping in that way, the best thing to do is pray. Pray even when you don't feel like it, pray even when you don't want to.

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If you feel uncomfortable about the presence of the Spirit, this really is where to start.

Hey dermdoc, edit your post. It's still showing ags4 email because you quoted him.

And I really appreciate all of you taking the time to post and discuss this topic. I will spend some time in prayer and post my thoughts soon.

Done and thanks

dermdoc said:

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Ags4DaWin said:

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Your question is One I struggled with mightily for some time before finding my own personal answer. I can tell you that I have had experiences similar to those mentioned in the NT. I have felt the Holy Spirit and it is a sensation and a power that once you feel you can never deny. Once you feel it, you know for a certainty of the truth and would die before denying the truth of it.

I would be willing to share those experiences, if you want to hear them. Just let m know one way or another and I will post an email account where you can reach me.

As an aside I promise not to try to convert you to whatever sect of Christianity I belong to. I am not a big evangelical. For me, my experience with the gospel is a deeply personal one that I don't much like talking about in public forums. Which is why I lurk here and don't post often.

However it seems like you have some very honest and earnest questions similar to those that I had and I wanted to offer to share if you want to hear.

Edit- I will leave this up for a few minutes so that anyone interested can email me.

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That is my experience also.

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I have the same. And I've talked to one other person who has had a similar experience. However, I'm not certain our experiences would carry much weight with the OP, because they are our stories and not something he can see for himself.

My wife his similar angst as the OP. I know her well enough to know she is a woman of great faith. But she has never had such an experience. My belief as to why me and why not her is that her faith is stronger than mine. If God hadn't have done for me what he did, I probably would have eventually decided there's nothing going on but human fantasy and delusion and ultimately walk away from the faith. But now I cannot. The summary of my life seems like it could be described in the single phrase of "A man pursued by God."

I wish I could give that to everyone. But I don't know how. Being unable to, is frequently frustrating and saddening.

Shalom

JJMt said:

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swimmer, please forgive me if I come across as argumentative. I do not mean to do so but am genuinely seeking answers.

You say:

Quote:

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we can take no credit for the good that we do, rather that is the Holy Spirit working in us, to create the fruits of our faith. So when you pray, when you tithe, when you help the old lady across the street...all that is evidence of the Holy Spirit.

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While I agree with that completely, that cannot fully or adequately describe the work and presence of the Holy Spirit within us, can it? Many non-Christians pray, tithe and help old ladies. There is nothing unique about those actions that demonstrate God's awesome power or the comfort of Christ's presence in our lives.

Again, the NT writers wrote to everyone, not just to a few, or a select. They also wrote assuming that their readers understood implicitly and explicitly what they were describing. And what they described was the comfort and power of Christ within the lives of individual believers. The Holy Spirit was such a strong and discernible presence that John proffers it to his readers as the ultimate evidence of Christ being within them. That has to be much, much more than simply praying, tithing or helping old ladies.

The Orthodox on here point to their experience of the Spirit through their praxis and/or monasticism. But it seems clear that that is not what the NT authors were describing. They were describing an individual, personal experience with God through his Holy Spirit.

The answers I receive here seem to me to be people trying to argue that the Emperor really is clothed when in fact he's not. People give their own personal work-arounds to the question, rather than providing scriptural evidences or practical, real-life guidance. We so want the Bible to be true, and believe that it is true, that we manufacture evidence or experience to equate to the NT demonstrations of the presence of the Holy Spirit. But the modern manufactured experiences seem to be a pale shadow of what the NT writers described.

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Forgive me, I don't remember what denomination/background you come from. Remind me?


Sorry for the late response, I never forgot, but life gets in the way sometimes.


No, fruits of faith as evidence of the work of the Holy Spirit aren't a complete or adequate description of the Holy Spirit and His work, because baptism and the transformation of the eucharist are also the work of the Spirit. Every conversion story is. I hear stories of muslims dreaming about Christ before they ever get a chance to hear about Christianity and converting soon after. Those moments that you feel peace and comfort and certainty that you are following God's plan are the work of the Spirit.

I do think there are ways to get yourself into a place where you are more likely to feel His presence.. mostly by engaging all of your senses during prayer. Physically kneel, burn incense (frankincense and/or myrrh), fasting, speak your prayers out loud etc.

And have faith that even when you don't feel the weight of gravity, it is still there tethering you to the earth.