schmendeler said:

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being outside of this belief system it's funny looking back at it and people that are so sure that every occurrence is a sign that the end is coming SOON. jesus himself gave urgency to the timing of the event. it's been 2000 years, folks. it ain't gonna happen.

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Congratulations! Your are fulfilling prophecy by your own words!

2 Peter 3:2-10

2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Win At Life said:

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schmendeler said:

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being outside of this belief system it's funny looking back at it and people that are so sure that every occurrence is a sign that the end is coming SOON. jesus himself gave urgency to the timing of the event. it's been 2000 years, folks. it ain't gonna happen.

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Congratulations! Your are fulfilling prophecy by your own words!

2 Peter 3:2-10

2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

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"i'm coming back really soon! like real, real soon." - Jesus ~30AD

schmendeler said:

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Win At Life said:

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schmendeler said:

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being outside of this belief system it's funny looking back at it and people that are so sure that every occurrence is a sign that the end is coming SOON. jesus himself gave urgency to the timing of the event. it's been 2000 years, folks. it ain't gonna happen.

---

Congratulations! Your are fulfilling prophecy by your own words!

2 Peter 3:2-10

2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

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"i'm coming back really soon! like real, real soon." - Jesus ~30AD

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Yeshua never claimed the event we are talking about in our future would come soon on the Pashat level. What He said would come soon was a great upheaval in the land and the destruction of the temple, which did occur within the lifetime of some of those to whom He spoke.

God also said the Israelites would not be long in the the Promised Land before he destroyed them, but that took almost 1000 years. So, like like Peter says "soon" to God may not seem like soon to you and me.

Other "soon" references are equally misunderstood and most refer to the end of "THAT" age, which did come to an end between 30AD and 73AD. That age was the last two days for Israel, which started the two days for Mashiach. Those two days for Mashiach are the "last days" Paul was sometimes referring to. There are several levels of "last" days; some are more on the surface (Pashat level) and some are more of a Sod (Mystery) level. Some of these thoughts were well known in the Jewish culture of the First Century, so it helps to study that in order to understand scripture better. Most Christians have rejected the Jewish culture of the scripture, so they go off way wrong on a number of things; of which you have stumbled upon one.

Let scripture properly interpret scripture, especially when the worldly mind of interpretation seems to contradict scripture.

Shalom to you and your family.

Quote:

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Yeshua never claimed the event we are talking about in our future would come soon on the Pashat level. What He said would come soon was a great upheaval in the land and the destruction of the temple, which did occur within the lifetime of some of those to whom He spoke.

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can you give some more info on what leads you to make the distinction within the prophecy Jesus was giving?

That's not true, it says clearly that the current generation would live to see these events (much more than the destruction of the temple).

And your verse in Peter actually demonstrates the point, the scoffers weren't some supposed occurance or useless prophecy, the scoffing had already begun by the time it was written because the early Christians expected a quick return.

Once upon a time I was on the Texags barbecue team.

schmendeler said:

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Quote:

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Yeshua never claimed the event we are talking about in our future would come soon on the Pashat level. What He said would come soon was a great upheaval in the land and the destruction of the temple, which did occur within the lifetime of some of those to whom He spoke.

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can you give some more info on what leads you to make the distinction within the prophecy Jesus was giving?

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I'm not sure exactly what your are asking. Perhaps it would help if you asked a more specific question and/or listed a particular scripture.

Aggrad08 said:

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That's not true, it says clearly that the current generation would live to see these events (much more than the destruction of the temple).

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Do you mean His prediction of false prophets, false messiah's, wars, famines, earthquakes, tribulations or Jerusalem surrounded by armies? All of these happened by AD 70 and most of them are even recorded in the Brit Khadasha (New Testament) itself.

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And your verse in Peter actually demonstrates the point, the scoffers weren't some supposed occurance or useless prophecy, the scoffing had already begun by the time it was written because the early Christians expected a quick return.

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Many early Christians went off into all sorts of errors immediately. In fact, that's exactly why most of the Brit Khadasha was written; to correct errors in the synagogues founded by the apostles while they were still yet living. But let's not use their error as the basis for our doctrine.

I mean this part:

29 "Immediately after the distress of those days

"'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
30 "Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Quote:

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Do you mean His prediction of false prophets, false messiah's, wars, famines, earthquakes, tribulations or Jerusalem surrounded by armies? All of these happened by AD 70 and most of them are even recorded in the Brit Khadasha (New Testament) itself.

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Nope he very explicitly refers to the second coming, events which have not yet come to pass.

Quote:

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Many early Christians went off into all sorts of errors immediately. In fact, that's exactly why most of the Brit Khadasha was written; to correct errors in the synagogues founded by the apostles while they were still yet living. But let's not use their error as the basis for our doctrine.

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I'm pointing out that verse you referenced is making my point. The author of second peter is having to reassure because the people of the age interpreted the gospels as written and understood the second coming to be imminent.

Still following

schmendeler said:

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I mean this part:

29 "Immediately after the distress of those days

"'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
30 "Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

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Now you're getting somewhere. This is worthy of a good discussion. But let's remind ourselves that the vast majority of the "apocalyptic" things Yeshua predicted are actually relatively "pedestrian" and did in fact happen as He predicted. Those are many. And let's not interpret many scriptures (especially plain ones) in light of the few that are less obvious. Rather, it is better exegesis to interpret the few in light of the many. With that in mind, let's like at the one you quoted.

It certainly appears as if this never literally happened. However, the language Yeshua uses is typical of the Old Testament prophet's imagery when referring to physical destruction of cities and peoples.

Even John Calvin, who believed this imagery was still unfulfilled, acknowledges this language is poetic. He writes "He does not indeed mean that the stars will actually fall" That is, even if this prophecy is understood to have a fulfillment that is future to us, we do not expect distant stars will actually swoop across our solar system and hit the earth. In their day, meteors were described as falling stars. Much like in our very enlightened days we still refer to these as "shooting stars."

James Stewart Russell writes "Symbol and metaphor belong to the grammar of prophecy, as every reader of the Old Testament prophets must know. Is it not reasonable that the doom of Jerusalem should be depicted in language as glowing and rhetorical as the destruction of Babylon, or Bozrah, or Tyre?" Isaiah 13:10 describes the downfall of Babylon as "For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine." Isaiah announced the destruction of Bozrah in 34:4 "And all the host of heaven will wear away, And the sky will be rolled up like a scroll; All their hosts will also wither away As a leaf withers from the vine, Or as one withers from the fig tree."

Although we may understand Yeshua's prophecy to be similar imagery, are there still any signs that could be understood to portend a fulfillment of this in the first century? During Jesus' crucifixion, Matthew 27:45 says "Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour."

Josephus writes of the war between Rome and Jerusalem "there was a star resembling a sword which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole yearand at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day timea heifer, as she was led by the high-priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple." We know Halley's Comet appeared in AD 66. Many unusual signs, although not as specific, were also reported by the Roman historian Tacitus.

Josephus records additional strange events that occurred during the war with Rome just before Jerusalem was destroyed in AD 70. He writes "a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, 'Let us remove hence.'"

Language employed in biblical prophecy is not always cold and logical as is common in the Western world, but adopts a kind of fervor common to the East. The imagery employed by Yeshua in his prophetic discourse is not inappropriate to the dissolution of the Jewish state, which took place at the destruction of Jerusalem. Whether Matthew 24:29 is fulfilled in the first century or in the future, it is clear that actual stars will not fall and hit the earth. This imagery could well be fulfilled in the strange first century signs seen between Jesus' crucifixion and the destruction of Jerusalem and the second temple.

Did the Son of Man appear in the clouds in the first century? This would appear to be evidence that the Olivet Discourse did not occur completely in the first century, and that all of it must, therefore, be fulfilled in the future. However, is this meant to be interpreted literally?

In Isa 19:1, the Bible states "the Lord is riding on a swift cloud, and is about to come to Egypt; The idols of Egypt will tremble at His presence, and the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them". Egypt was judged by the Assyrians (Isa. 20:1-6), and it was God's judgment, but God did not literally ride on a cloud. In the Bible, clouds are symbolic of the Lord's presence, judgment and wrath. In Psalm 18:3-15, David writes about the Lord delivering him from his enemies. The Psalm speaks of the darkness and thick clouds as the Lord's hiding place (vs. 11-12) in carrying out His judgment. In the book of Exodus, when God was manifested to the people, it was in the cloud by day and in 16:10, the glory of the Lord was visible in the cloud. In Ex. 34:5, the Lord descended upon Mount Sinai in a cloud and met with Moses. The cloud separated the Egyptian army from the Israelites as they crossed the Red Sea. For Israel, the cloud represented deliverance, for the Egyptians, it was something to be afraid of, it represented judgment. In Genesis 9:13 the Lord says that He will put the rainbow in the cloud as a sign that He would not judge the earth again by a flood. In this case, the rainbow represents the promise, and the cloud represents judgment. In 1st Kings 8:10-11, a cloud filled the temple, which represented the glory of the Lord. The vision described in Ezekiel chapter 10, also speaks of a cloud filling the temple and the Lord's bright glory. To the Jewish people, the cloud was symbolic of the Lord presence and judgment and certainly any educated Hebrew of the time would understand this.

Yeshua told Caiaphas that "hereafter you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the clouds of heaven", in Matt 26:64. Compare this with Daniel 7:13-14. Verse 65 tells us that Caiaphas tore his robes. Why? Because he understood that by this statement Jesus was claiming to be God. To expect the Yeshua to come in the clouds in a physical fleshly way, his literal body descending from the clouds, would be contrary to Caiaphas' understanding of the Old Testament. He would understand the significance of Christ coming in the clouds because they are associated with God. In light of the preceding thoughts, His coming with the clouds does not have to mean that Jesus in bodily form will touch down upon the earth. The clouds represented the coming judgment of the Jews and destruction of their way of life, and the promise of His presence in the Kingdom to the believer.

However, in Acts 1:9-11, when Jesus was ascended up into heaven, the angels said that He would return in the "'same way" (like manner - KJV). This does indeed seem to indicate a more visible return. But as we read earlier, Josephus recorded the "chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds."

This same event is recorded by the Roman historian Tacitus in his work called Histories, v. 13. "In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure"

With this, it's reasonable to assume all the "tribes," which surely meant Jewish tribes, would mourn at such a sight that foretold the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction and desolation of the temple. Remember that the beginning of the Roman siege of Jerusalem coincided with the feast of Passover. It was common during these feasts for all the tribes of Israel to convene in Jerusalem and around the temple for the proper sacrifices, so all the tribes were there to witness the events in AD 70 that Josephus records. Also, as the Roman war began three years earlier, masses of Jews retreated to the protection within the walls of Jerusalem. The city was packed to overflowing with people when Rome began its siege. With this interpretation, the chariots must be a sign from God himself and although the "Son of Man" was not specifically mentioned, this interpretation requires that it be understood Jesus was there in one of the chariots.

It is very biblically accurate to think that the "coming in the clouds" was meant only spiritually in a judgment sense on Jerusalem and even if a literal, visible appearance is meant, we have evidence of that occurring as well.

Most people also can't possibly see how Matthew 24:31 has already been fulfilled. It reads "and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other." However, we just learned how all the tribes of Israel were gathered together for the Roman destruction of Jerusalem.

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover ; and it is deserving of the attention, that this was the anniversary of that memorable period in which the Jews crucified their Messiah! At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country, and from distant parts, to keep the festival. How suitable and how kind, then, was the prophetic admonition of our LORD, and how clearly he prophesied when he said "Let not them that are in the countries enter into Jerusalem." Luke 21:21.

Nevertheless, the city was at this time crowded with Jewish strangers, and foreigners from all parts, so that the whole nation may be considered as having been shut up in one prison, preparatory to the execution of the Divine vengeance ; and, according to Josephus this event took place suddenly ; thus, not only fulfilling the predictions of our LORD, that these calamities should come, like the lightning "that cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the West," and " as a snare on all of them (the Jews) who dwelt upon the face of the whole earth " (Matt. 24:27, and Luke 21:35) but justifying, also, his direction, that those who fled from the place should use the utmost possible expedition. This is interesting, but not a very satisfactory fulfillment of #12 because "elect" typically meant God's people of which the unrepentant Jews in Jerusalem were not.

So, there is plausible evidence for a first century fulfillment of these prophecies.

Now, having said that, there are what appear to be many other allusions to these same events in the Daniel, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Thessalonians, Revelation, etc; many of which probably don't have a first century fulfillment. But, prophecies occasionally are fulfilled once in the near term only to be latter re-fulfilled in the distant future. It is possible that clues are intended in the near-term fulfillment to assist us in better understanding a future fulfillment. So, having a viable first century fulfillment of the Olivet Discourse does not require a belief in Full Preterism, because there can still be a fulfillment in our future. This is my best understanding of these things.

Shalom

Aggrad08 said:

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Many early Christians went off into all sorts of errors immediately. In fact, that's exactly why most of the Brit Khadasha was written; to correct errors in the synagogues founded by the apostles while they were still yet living. But let's not use their error as the basis for our doctrine.

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I'm pointing out that verse you referenced is making my point. The author of second peter is having to reassure because the people of the age interpreted the gospels as written and understood the second coming to be imminent.

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This seems like an odd position to take. Your preferred view of what was "correct" are those who were wrong according to scripture written by an an Apostle. So, by taking this "wrong" crowd as your preference for being "right" you are saying it is the Apostle who is wrong and those who are being told they are wrong in scripture as being right.

Fair enough.

FriscoTxAggie said:

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Because the arab states know the key to unlocking the financial potential in the middle east is a peace treaty. Most arab nations are hurting financially and they know major investors are not investing their money in the middle east with how unstable it currently is.

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There are a couple of fallacies in your argument:
1) The key to unlocking the financial potential in the middle east is for the Arab countries to magically transform from despotic governments that self deal with their clans/fellow sect members and political supporters while limiting competition to a... more free market economy. That has about a zero chance of happening. And if the governments change, there will just be a new clique in power that will favor others while limiting competition etc. See Iraq. These societies are not wired for democracy or free economies.

This political/economic system is cultural/religion based. As another poster pointed out, Jordan has had a peace treaty with Israel for decades..as has Egypt. They are both still impoverished, corrupt sheetholes. In addition, the educated populations in these countries are mostly educated in advanced religious studies, not something practical like engineering, etc. The one exception ironically are the Palestinians who seem more practical in that respect.

2) As dictatorships, they need enemies to survive, just like fish need water. They will never make peace with Israel unless it is a total victory for them. Otherwise their citizens will overthrow and kill them. So if peace is made, the Jews will be dispossessed or at best made 2nd class citizens. Good luck having the Temple rebuilt when the Jews are politically and militarily neutered.

Thanks for your post as I really enjoyed it. I have always wondered how Christians and even Christian pastors and scholars will all agree at all the imagery used in the examples you mentioned and then interpret Revelations in a totally different, much more literal, way.

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This political/economic system is cultural/religion based. As another poster pointed out, Jordan has had a peace treaty with Israel for decades..as has Egypt. They are both still impoverished, corrupt sheetholes. In addition, the educated populations in these countries are mostly educated in advanced religious studies, not something practical like engineering, etc. The one exception ironically are the Palestinians who seem more practical in that respect

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This is confusing.

Is there a government that isn't "cultural based"? Is their constitutional monarchy with a parliament really "religious based"?

While Jordan is poor relative to us, it's technically a middle income country by global standards. It isn't struggling with rampant extreme poverty. It's a relatively well-educated country with a fairly large percentage of the population going to college and graduate studies in business, engineering, and medicine (do you have a citation for your claim that most people are educated in religious studies?)

For a country with an enormous number of refugees, surrounded by instability, war, and rivals, with unstable regional trading partners, and almost no natural resources, it's pretty amazing the level of development in Jordan.

I've lived in Jordan for 3.5 years now. It's a nice place. I wish the economy was more open and free and that it was less dependent on people working in the public sector. There are things I would change, but it's quite a bit more complicated given regional issues than I assumed before I moved here. I don't think I would rather live anywhere else in the region.

Quote:

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Language employed in biblical prophecy is not always cold and logical as is common in the Western world, but adopts a kind of fervor common to the East. The imagery employed by Yeshua in his prophetic discourse is not inappropriate to the dissolution of the Jewish state, which took place at the destruction of Jerusalem. Whether Matthew 24:29 is fulfilled in the first century or in the future, it is clear that actual stars will not fall and hit the earth. This imagery could well be fulfilled in the strange first century signs seen between Jesus' crucifixion and the destruction of Jerusalem and the second temple.

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Your entire post is jumping through various and often ridiculous hoops to make this point. That imagry is used is no issue, I didn't contend that actual Stars will fall, but you've so twisted the imagry such that you've taken the meaning out of the text, whether poetic hypberbole or not this is the second coming.

Considering "Gathering the elect" to the Roman conquest is quite simply absurd. The elect are not most the Jews of that era, they are the Christians, and they were not gathered in any meaningful sense. Whether Jesus comes on a literal cloud or in some other magnificent event it's clear this is something for all the world to see not some trivial event. To say this would be understood as fulfilled literally denies the teaching of the early church.

No one, and I mean no one can come to your interpretation outside of trying to make it fit into a history where it didn't happen. You are hiding behind the rather obvious fact that it's not all literal to mask an attempt to *******ize the text to mean something completely different.

To your statement on peter, the scoffers existed because of what Christians believed and claimed. The author of peter is trying to reassure (and it's not written by the apostle by the way). Even still he doesn't reassure by saying this already happened but by saying this will come to pass.

The prophecy is a failure, if he meant what you say he would have said it, he may have still used imagry but it would be imagry which conveyed this intent.

dermdoc said:

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Thanks for your post as I really enjoyed it. I have always wondered how Christians and even Christian pastors and scholars will all agree at all the imagery used in the examples you mentioned and then interpret Revelations in a totally different, much more literal, way.

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This proves the point, they only abandon the obvious reading where history doesn't allow it.

Aggrad08 said:

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dermdoc said:

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Thanks for your post as I really enjoyed it. I have always wondered how Christians and even Christian pastors and scholars will all agree at all the imagery used in the examples you mentioned and then interpret Revelations in a totally different, much more literal, way.

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This proves the point, they only abandons the obvious reading where history doesn't allow it.

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I look at it in a different way. First of all, I think they are taught that way in seminaries. Secondly, the Augustinian tradition of Hell has been so entrenched in Western Christian thinking that it is hard to discard and Revelation can be interpreted to bolster that tradition. Thirdly, "End Times" based on varying interpretations of Revelation is very popular and financially lucrative.

I agree this is the teaching in seminary, but I do think this is why it's the teaching. Augustines influence is huge, but his version of hell is not merely his invention save for a few items.

As to people making money off the literal interpretation, sure you can explain a few characters that way, but by and large this is a genuine belief based on the text and common teaching.

And ironically, revelation as written is much more symbolic and much more open to interpretation than the predictions of Jesus in the gospels.

Disagree. When Jesus talked about Gehenna I believe he was talking to a Jewish audience about an actual place so they could understand what would happen in 70ad because God had removed his protection from the Jews.

Paul is very clear that the wages of sin are death. Not some Auschwitzian torture chamber which was never mentioned in the OT.

Marco Esquandolas said:

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IDAGG said:

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FriscoTxAggie said:

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Because the arab states know the key to unlocking the financial potential in the middle east is a peace treaty. Most arab nations are hurting financially and they know major investors are not investing their money in the middle east with how unstable it currently is.

---

There are a couple of fallacies in your argument:
1) The key to unlocking the financial potential in the middle east is for the Arab countries to magically transform from despotic governments that self deal with their clans/fellow sect members and political supporters while limiting competition to a... more free market economy. That has about a zero chance of happening. And if the governments change, there will just be a new clique in power that will favor others while limiting competition etc. See Iraq. These societies are not wired for democracy or free economies.

This political/economic system is cultural/religion based. As another poster pointed out, Jordan has had a peace treaty with Israel for decades..as has Egypt. They are both still impoverished, corrupt sheetholes. In addition, the educated populations in these countries are mostly educated in advanced religious studies, not something practical like engineering, etc. The one exception ironically are the Palestinians who seem more practical in that respect.

2) As dictatorships, they need enemies to survive, just like fish need water. They will never make peace with Israel unless it is a total victory for them. Otherwise their citizens will overthrow and kill them. So if peace is made, the Jews will be dispossessed or at best made 2nd class citizens. Good luck having the Temple rebuilt when the Jews are politically and militarily neutered.

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This is such crass, baseless thinly-veiled bigoted garbage stereotyping. Doesn't even remotely qualify as a rebuttal. Do better.

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I will concede that craigernaught has a point..that Jordan is semi-successful by world standards, and certainly by mid east standards. But the rest of the mid-east? Which countries are ripe for economic development based on recent history? And to my point about sectarianism and or tribal/ethic loyalties:

- Egypt: A revolving door of dictatorships, Muslim brotherhood, etc, while their economy is in shambles
- Lebanon: Used to be pretty advanced, Sadly has fallen into a religious extremist failed state for the most part.
- Sudan: Do I need to say more?
- Iraq. Dictatorship to quasi democracy where Sunnis And Shias jockey for power...along sectarian lines.
- Saudi Arabia. What is it about that country that would prove my statements wrong? Answer: Nothing.
- Syria: Not even worth going over. Giant despot followed his son who is trying to out despot him.
Should I talk about Yemen and Iran?

Look, all of these countries have many wonderful people in them. I have no ill will towards Arabs or Islam for that matter. But let's speak plainly. Their governments betray their trust in a daily basis. And there is a reason that democracy hasn't really taken root in any of them. It's cultural/historical. That is not bigotry, it's empirical observation.

Look, the mideast is not doomed for all of time to be an economic backwater. But there is way more than investment that is needed to make those countries' economies thrive.

There are a number of places that have growing economies and/or some political reform, or at least real optimism with a decent chance at success: Jordan, Tunisia, Oman, UAE, Bahrain, Qatar, Palestine (that one of course is greatly complicated by relations with Israel). I'm actually pretty bullish on the long term prospects of Iran - although they're not Arab and that's a whole other issue. No doubt the despots and sectarianism are a real issue, especially since Syria is like an hour and a half away from my house, but populism is just as big of an issue as we've seen in Egypt. I've long believed that economic liberalization here should precede democratization.

I don't think the impediment to liberalization is necessarily cultural. Most people that I know here would be shockingly normal to the westerner (to be fair, I live in Amman). I think the tribalism and sectarianism is just practical given the realities of their history and present regional issues. The transition from Ottoman to Arab states was a nightmare. The cold war made things worse. And that history combined with the rise of petrol rentier states tipped the balance of power away from liberalism and towards state centralization - often in a weird union with religious fundamentalism. The statists used the Palestinian crisis to centralize military and political power and they used the cold war and now the war on terror to fund it. Moderate states were caught in an impossible position. There is opportunity to move on, but it's going to take work and they need outside help to do it.

What's weird about those states that are reforming/growing even if slowly is that they often are doing it independently of each other. Many of these states aren't really connected in a common market the way European or Asian countries are. There's just not a ton of trade with each other due to awkward borders, regional instability, and geographic challenges. I mean, look at a map, who is Jordan's trade partner supposed to be just by geography alone? Syria? Iraq? Israel/Palestine? I'm 40 miles from Jerusalem and a trip there takes about 6 hours. Isolated states are doing well in terms of stability and peace (other than Yemen). Well positioned states are unstable and growing more authoritarian. I think that's indicative of a bigger issue than just Arab culture in opposition to liberalization.

craigernaught, thanks for your insight. Since you are on the ground there I will defer to your analysis of the situation.

dermdoc said:

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Disagree. When Jesus talked about Gehenna I believe he was talking to a Jewish audience about an actual place

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Jesus did not event this term. While there is no hell in the OT various Jewish sects invented different beliefs about the afterlife during the intertestament period with heavy Grecian influence. It's a real valley and had meaning at the time, but the exact nature is lost to us.

Some Jews consider gehenna a one year purgatory but this belief didn't make it to Christianity.

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so they could understand what would happen in 70ad because God had removed his protection from the Jews.

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Where are you getting this in scripture? What protection did the Jews have, they were conquered many times?

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Paul is very clear that the wages of sin are death. Not some Auschwitzian torture chamber which was never mentioned in the OT.

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It's true, hell is foriegn to Paul, so is gehenna. The eternal torture chamber beliefs are wholly based in the gospels and appear quite early in church history. It's a major inconsistency in belief for sure.

I consider the annihilation view much more intelligent and humane, and certainly easier to justify with Paul or the OT. But it's no accident the Christian hell came to be either.