Biblical Inerrancy

12,137 Views | 189 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by booboo91
Sapper Redux
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booboo91 said:

Texaggie7nine said:

If you are an annihilationist, I don't have much of an argument with you on those grounds.
Why do you deserve anything?

When you look up at the stars and universe we realize how small and insignifcant we really are. This is because it is the truth. In the grand scheme of things, it is only God that brings value to our life, make us special.

I mention this to show how everything we have is a gift from God. God calls the shots, not us. He is God, not us. The universe revolves around him, not us. I think in our world today, easy to think the world revolves around us.






Sad view of things. Also begs the question why you think life is so valuable of it has no worth outside of a deity?
schmendeler
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Lord
Lunatic
Liar
Legend
schmendeler
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JJMt said:

The real issue isn't sufficient evidence; there's overwhelming evidence if people would just be willing to look honestly.
that's not true at all. I was a believer until I actually started to look at it honestly.
Texaggie7nine
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Quote:

Are you sure that if God laid it out exactly like you think he should have, that everyone would then believe? My guess is that they wouldn't; that they wouldn't believe even if he raised someone from the dead right in front of them.

How many children question the existence of their parents or how they want them to behave?


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The real issue isn't sufficient evidence; there's overwhelming evidence if people would just be willing to look honestly. The problem is that most don't. They filter the evidence to fit their pre-conceived notions. The real irony is that the skeptics claim that Christians are guilty of that (many are), but don't see that they are likewise guilty.

That wasn't my case at all. And I couldn't not be more honest in my search. I still believe in some type of higher power but even that seems to be a result of my biased desire for the existence of one.
7nine
booboo91
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Texaggie7nine said:

Quote:

Why do you deserve anything?


Exactly. Why does the majority of humanity deserve eternal hell for doing what they were born to do?

But, again, if you are an annihilationist and believe the non believers are burnt up into non existence never to experience anything again, then we don't have an argument. Be happy for the life you had on earth and don't expect anything more. If you don't like your life on earth, then end it and go on to nothingness. Nothing wrong there.
They deserve Hell because God who is just and set up our own sense of right and wrong, decides it along with our actions on what we choose. Like the fig tree for not bearing fruit, consequences of actions. It is how God set things up.

Why does gravity kill someone who jumps from a 10 story builiding? Why does fire burn? Why do people who get hooked on meth suffer? Some of this is basic common sense that we know. Don't put your hand under the lawnmower. And likewise, Heaven or Hell awaits for how you love in this life.

As far as how many people go to Hell, we don't know. Bible says many. Many Saints have seen visions and again it is many folks. We don't know who is in Hell. this is usually a discussion between God and person.



schmendeler
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My God-given sense of right and wrong tells me that the idea of hell is wrong.
booboo91
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Dr. Watson said:


Sad view of things. Also begs the question why you think life is so valuable of it has no worth outside of a deity?
First we do live in a world with a God, with intelligence, with order, with a purpose driven life. with specific goals for us given to us by our creator. Simply put our purpose in life is to make it to heaven and take as many people with us as possible. we do this by loving God and loving our neighbor and using our unique talents (which can be things such as leadership skills, speaking skills, music, humor, beauty, hard working, intelligent, compassionate to others, good listening).

If there was no God, if there was no intelligence Design. We would be just a random collection of molecules, with no set specific purpose. We would never achieve our goal our purpose because there are none to achieve!

Example- a hammer is made by someone, the specific purpose of hammer is to hit nails. The creator picks up the hammer it made and uses it to accomplish its task. if there was no creator we would have no task or purpose. We as the hammer would never be picked or used. Nothing would matter, you could be nice or mean, live or die- it does not matter.

All of this is a moot point. Whether you believe in God or not, you still have a soul, you still have a conscience, you still have a purpose and desire to utiize your God given talents even if you do not recognize it.

Also The family you have is a gift from God. It is not a mistake you love and care for them. This is God's way of helping us prepare for Heaven. With many families we learn how to give ourselves away to others. Being a parent is huge because it forces us to get away from ME, ME, ME and focuses us on serving others.
booboo91
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schmendeler said:

My God-given sense of right and wrong tells me that the idea of hell is wrong.
So you should avoid it!

I do agree with you it is harsh! And when you read the NT- it says over and over- cut down, thown into fire, wailing and grinding of teeth. These are not good images.

And then the saints through out the centuries who have seen it, say the same thing. Hell is real, Hell is bad bad bad. You really better repent and change your ways. Turn to God and Go love others and give yourself away as you know you should.
booboo91
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I just had friend in our hood pass away from Heart attack he was around 50 years old. He was a good man and even though it is difficult time, the silver lining in it all is that his death forces us to think about our death. About Heaven and Hell about the limited time we have on earth.



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schmendeler
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YEC non denominational Evangelical.
Aggrad08
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Quote:

The Use of Amanuenses Account for Stylistic Differences
Not really, dictation should reflect the thinker not the writer. This is especially hard to argue for theological differences.

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Guess who's name shows up when clicking on the 1 by "most scholars"? It's Bart Ehrman, the most liberal scholar to date.
Got another scholar denying it? Because it's standard teaching in seminary. Running from the basic fact because its an Ehrman quote is nonsense. That's the funny part about the Ehrman hate, it's not his finding, he is merely reporting the standard teaching in the vast majority of instances. It wasn't news to people in the field, to people who've gone to seminary, it's news to people totally unfamiliar.
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1,800 years after the fact "modern liberal scholars" make weird claims because of a small observation while dismissing all of the evidence against.
Except it's not just modern liberal scholars, it's most scholars the majority of whom are christians.

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The early church flatly rejected pseudonymous letters.
The entire gospels are psedonymous. This is flatly untrue.

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Simply put, individuals closest in proximity to the writing of a document can know with more certainty who actually authored the document than those two-thousand years removed.
Except they were wrong many times over. The letters were passed around with various oral traditions attached. Whether it's mosaic authorship or authorship of the gospels, or of the various pauline letters, the tradition actually gets it wrong more often than not.



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Would an email to your spouse look different than an email to your kids, coworkers, group of friends?
It wouldn't look so different that I didn't mention a gospel once! Not even their very existence while I extensively quote the OT.


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Given the audience, letter to Tim vs an entire church, given the content of the message, was there a need to quote scripture?
Paul wrote many letters, quoting scripture often and never once did so with the gospels. He also doesn't mention hell which is worth noting given the other conversation going on.
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If the best evidence indicates that we should, why not? When Wikipedia claims, "most scholars 'and quotes Bart, red flags should go up.
Except it's not just wikipedia. And the evidence doesn't say we should, your blind boring rejection of the information a group of largely Christians scholars has determined based on evidence already in hand that's weaker than the contrary evidence can't be taken seriously. It's almost as bad as you throwing out most scientists. That's not what the evidence says, you are deluding yourself.
Aggrad08
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Quote:

Lewis comments (Lord, Liar, Lunatic) does not pertaining to every bible verse in the NT. His comments were specifically about Jesus being God and rising from the dead.


and even those are hardly that simple. What jesus specifically claimed and what was developed by the early church is anything but cut and dry and probably contains good measures of both.

In Honest to God, John A. T. Robinson, then Bishop of Woolwich, criticizes Lewis's approach, questioning the idea that Jesus intended to claim divinity: "It is, indeed, an open question whether Jesus claimed to be Son of God, let alone God".[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis%27s_trilemma#cite_note-30][30][/url] However, Michael Ramsey, Archbishop of Canterbury, thought that Robinson's theology was weak, and that he had only a vague understanding of many of the issues.[citation needed] John Hick, writing in 1993, argued that this "once popular form of apologetic" was ruled out by changes in New Testament studies, citing "broad agreement" that scholars do not today support the view that Jesus claimed to be God, quoting as examples Michael Ramsey (1980), C. F. D. Moule (1977), James Dunn (1980), Brian Hebblethwaite (1985) and David Brown (1985).[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis%27s_trilemma#cite_note-31][31][/url]Larry Hurtado, who argues that the followers of Jesus within a very short period developed an exceedingly high level of devotional reverence to Jesus,[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis%27s_trilemma#cite_note-32][32][/url] at the same time rejects the view that Jesus made a claim to messiahship or divinity to his disciples during his life as "naive and ahistorical".[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis%27s_trilemma#cite_note-lord_jesus_christ_a01-4][4][/url] According to Gerd Ldemann, the broad consensus among modern New Testament scholars is that the proclamation of the divinity of Jesus was a development within the earliest Christian communities.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis%27s_trilemma#cite_note-gerd-33][33][/url] N. T. Wright says the trilemma argument lacks historical context, oversimplifying first-century Judaism's understanding of the nature of God's dealings with his people.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis%27s_trilemma#cite_note-Wright_2007-29][29][/url] Wright points out that arguments over the claims of Jesus regarding divinity have been passed over by more recent scholarship, which sees a more complex understanding of the idea of God in first century Judaism.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis%27s_trilemma#cite_note-Wright1999-34][34][/url] But, Andrew Loke argues that if Jesus did not claim and show himself to be truly divine and rise from the dead, the earliest Christian leaders who were devout ancient monotheistic Jews would have regarded Jesus as merely a teacher or a prophet, but not as truly divine, which they did. [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis%27s_trilemma#cite_note-35][35][/url]


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It is directed at the false narrative that Jesus was a nice guy/ prophet, Buddha type who was later turned into a God myth. That option is not on the table when you read the NT. Also not on the table with Paul's early time date comments. From the beginning it was taught. So Jesus was either God or a fraud, there is no middle ground.
That's not at all the opinion of people who study the new testament.

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Jesus coming back during life time in the synoptics is about many things. It is primarily about the destruction ofhe temple in 70 AD, which happened. It is also referencing OT quotes and symbolism, and Jesus does come back- see stoning of St. Stephen in book of Acts 7 55-56. But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56 "Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."

This is false. Jesus does not come back, it's very clearly about a second coming, nothing in acts and nothing about the destruction of the temple even begins to fulfill that prophecy. Further, since you like lewis so much you should know that he rejects this argument. He admits it's a failed prophecy and considers it "the most embarrassing verse in the bible".

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I think your hang up, is you fail to recognize God exists. The minute you know God exists and there is life after death, then NT and Jesus makes sense. Until then you will limit how you can see Jesus (you will ignore the St. Stephen account).
I can grant a god and the NT still fails. The st. stephen account is a joke in reference to the actual prophecy. The prophecy has jesus return in the clouds with angels in full glory, gathering all the elect.This would be no secret, invisible or "spiritual" event. Instead, the whole world would see him in the sky. It's not the transfiguration either, that argument similarly fails.
booboo91
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Quote:

Lewis comments (Lord, Liar, Lunatic) does not pertaining to every bible verse in the NT. His comments were specifically about Jesus being God and rising from the dead.
Quote:

and even those are hardly that simple. What jesus specifically claimed and what was developed by the early church is anything but cut and dry and probably contains good measures of both
So what do you mean by what Jesus claimed and what was developed by the early church? They are one in the same. The NT was written by the early church! St. Paul in 50s AD is clear, Jesus is God and he rose. Gospel of John roughly 90 AD very clear Jesus is God and he rose. Synoptic gospels give tons of clues on who Jesus was nature was- demons announce him, he masters the weather, forgives sins (the Jews call out this can only be done by God, scream blasphemy), his apostles worship him, he gets shout outs from God the Father at the Transfiguration, This is my son listen to Him).

My point everything that we have documented is very consistent. Jesus was God and rose from the dead. There is not one shred of evidence that this changed.

How can you overcome this statement by St. Paul in ballpark 52AD? This is what we Christians today believe. So we have one of the first documents about Jesus saying what we believe. Right out of the gate.

Phillipians 2 5-8 Have among yourselves the same attitude that is also yours in Christ Jesus Who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped. Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness; and found human in appearance, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross.
booboo91
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Aggrad,

I get it, understand if folks say the NT was BS and propaganda from the very beginning. This is what many of the Jews at the time of Jesus did. They did not accept Jesus. Also see in John 6 Jesus disciples walked away from him when Jesus says to literally eat his body (Eucharist). They did not believe, did not accept it. This is typical human behavior. Not everyone agrees.

I can understand if people say St. Paul out of the gate was full of it, a liar. What I disagree and can't understand is when people say things changed, in the NT. My point and CS Lewis point. When you read the Bible- NT, written at the beginning of the Christian faith 50-90AD. It is clear, Jesus was God, Jesus rose from the Dead. You cannot read the 27 books of the NT and come away with any other conclusion.

However if you read 30 second sound bites, if you are ignorant on what Jews believed about God at the time (example forgiving sins can only be done by God), if you throw out (ignore) Pauls epistles (the first documents on the Christian faith) and throw out Gospel of John, then certainly, you can make the case that Jesus was not God This is done by ignoring facts that hurt your side of the argument (this is the Ehrman tactic).
 
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