Biblical Inerrancy

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Scotts Tot
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I'm new to this board, so forgive me if this is a topic that's already been discussed in detail on another thread(s). If it has, I would appreciate someone directing me that way, as I would be interested in reading through the discussion.

To make a long story short, I was raised in a very conservative evangelical atmosphere, where the Bible was taken as the "word of God" in quite the literal sense. To question the supremacy and inerrancy of scripture was written off as liberal theology and deemed heretical.

Over the last few years, I've become bothered by a number of things about the Bible. My overarching struggle is that to force the Bible into the inerrancy box makes me feel like I have to ignore a bunch of material, or at best come up with what feel like weak attempts to explain away discrepancies and inaccuracies. I'll throw out a few things that I have come to find rather difficult to reconcile:

1. I know this is a huge one for many, but I just can't seem to get past the character of God as expressed in a number of OT accounts, particular in the Jewish conquest of Canaan and the slaying of entire people groups. I can't fit this God and the God of the gospels into the same mold. Sure the Canaanites were wicked based on Jewish values, but so were the vast majority of primitive tribal cultures. If we wouldn't condone genocide now because of a culture's evil practices, why was it ok then?

2. I moved on from a literal interpretation of creation a long time ago. I believe the world as we currently know it took billions of years to form and that we humans are the most recent iteration in many millions of years worth of slow adaptation that we call evolution. I believe that to claim otherwise is to ignore all the physical evidence that covers our planet, making God out to be some kind of trickster that planted fake evidence. As it relates to biblical interpretation, my struggle is that I still don't know what parts of scripture to take as history, as opposed to a national narrative Israel was creating with stories that were never intended to be taken as literal events (along the lines of the George Washington cherry tree story).

3. There's a lot of stuff in the Bible that doesn't really agree with itself. For two thousand years scholars have dedicated their lives to understanding and interpreting scripture, only to end up with vastly different opinions on what it says and means. One example is salvation (free will vs. predestination): theologians all over the world who know the Bible inside and out fall on polar ends of this spectrum. If scripture was the final, inerrant, perfect, verbally-inspired word of God, why is it not more clear?

4. Even in the conservative literalist environment I grew up in, we still picked and chose what to follow and what not to follow, though I didn't really see it until much later. Women were allowed to speak in church and not wear head coverings because those passages had to be put in the context of their Jewish origins. What about homosexuality? Male "headship"? How do we decide which scriptures are applicable to modern society and which ones aren't?

5. When was it decided that these books were inerrant in the first place? I know OT scriptures are described as God-breathed in the NT, but does that really mean inerrant? What about the gospels and letters that make up the NT? When was it decided that these writings must be perfect and verbally inspired?

Anyway, these are few things off the top of my head. I'm just looking for a little discussion on this. Hope to hear constructive perspectives from both sides. Again, apologies if this is a topic that's already been discussed as nauseum.
PacifistAg
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AG
I'm just going to share some links on the question because I am pressed for time. The links may help you and aren't too long of reads.
[url=https://reknew.org/2015/09/the-bible-is-infallible-not-inerrant/][/url]
The Bible is Infallible NOT Inerrant
An Alternative to Biblical Inerrancy
PacifistAg
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Quote:

1. I know this is a huge one for many, but I just can't seem to get past the character of God as expressed in a number of OT accounts, particular in the Jewish conquest of Canaan and the slaying of entire people groups. I can't fit this God and the God of the gospels into the same mold. Sure the Canaanites were wicked based on Jewish values, but so were the vast majority of primitive tribal cultures. If we wouldn't condone genocide now because of a culture's evil practices, why was it ok then?
I did want to address this. You would appreciate Greg Boyd's work, 'Cross Vision'. It goes into this in detail. He has a longer, 2-volume version called Crucifixion of the Warrior God. I read the 2-volume version, and it's just amazing in its depth of research and ease of reading. It's basic premise is the belief that Jesus is the exact revelation of God's nature, and as a result, God must look like Jesus. When He doesn't, as we see w/ the perceived commands that the Israelites commit genocide and infanticide, then we need to peel away layers to see how it does point to Christ. He refers to those depictions as "literary crucifixions". In other words, just as the cross, on the surface, looks hideous and evil, when we look beneath the surface we see a clearer picture of a God who loves so deeply that He is willing to bear that evil surface to redeem His people. So goes the depictions of an evil, genocidal God. The hideous surface isn't who God is, but it's the beauty beneath. It's the loving patience to bear sinful depictions of who He is in order to stay in relationship w/ His people. As we see w/ Christ, God has always been willing to bear our sin in order to remain in relationship with us.
dermdoc
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Good links from retired. It is fascinating to talk to an Orthodox Jew or Rabbi about this subject and the OT. Very different viewpoint from American fundamentalists. And also remember that every translation and interpretation puts its own spin on it.
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Martin Q. Blank
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Are you suggesting some portions of the Bible are the word of God, but not others?
dermdoc
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And may I add that God does not punish you for questioning stuff. A lot of Biblical characters did. I was raised in the Baptist Church and have been shocked at the stuff I was not taught or exposed to like the church fathers.
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dermdoc
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Martin Q. Blank said:

Are you suggesting some portions of the Bible are the word of God, but not others?
Not at all. Suggesting that people who interpret the Bible are not inerrant.huge difference. Considering Sheol is translated half the time as "Hell" and half the time as grave. And that "Hell" was a created word. Just curious which translators were inerrant.
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Martin Q. Blank
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dermdoc said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

Are you suggesting some portions of the Bible are the word of God, but not others?
Not at all. Suggesting that people who interpret the Bible are not inerrant.huge difference.
I don't know of anybody who thinks that.
dermdoc
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Martin Q. Blank said:

dermdoc said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

Are you suggesting some portions of the Bible are the word of God, but not others?
Not at all. Suggesting that people who interpret the Bible are not inerrant.huge difference.
I don't know of anybody who thinks that.
Calvin much? Or ever been to a fundamental Baptist Church?
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Martin Q. Blank
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dermdoc said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

dermdoc said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

Are you suggesting some portions of the Bible are the word of God, but not others?
Not at all. Suggesting that people who interpret the Bible are not inerrant.huge difference.
I don't know of anybody who thinks that.
Calvin much?
Calvin thought he was inerrant?
Frok
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That is a good point to distinguish. The original manuscripts are what we consider inerrant. Translations can vary as some translate thoughts or ideas while others are more word for word. It's why it's good to read multiple translations as well as go back to the greek or hebrew to get the original meaning of the words used.



dermdoc
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Martin Q. Blank said:

dermdoc said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

dermdoc said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

Are you suggesting some portions of the Bible are the word of God, but not others?
Not at all. Suggesting that people who interpret the Bible are not inerrant.huge difference.
I don't know of anybody who thinks that.
Calvin much?
Calvin thought he was inerrant?


Maybe I should have said Calvinist much?
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Martin Q. Blank
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dermdoc said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

dermdoc said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

dermdoc said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

Are you suggesting some portions of the Bible are the word of God, but not others?
Not at all. Suggesting that people who interpret the Bible are not inerrant.huge difference.
I don't know of anybody who thinks that.
Calvin much?
Calvin thought he was inerrant?
Maybe I should have said Calvinist much?
Calvinists think they are inerrant?
Scotts Tot
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Thanks for the suggestion and perspective! On the topic of the OT warrior God, it's much easier for me to accept that the Israelites were doing what other tribal cultures in that time and place did: invoke the name of their god in their attempts to gain land and resources through battle. Victories in battle were perceived as blessings or favors from the god(s) who delivered them. Perhaps this was the only way ancient Jews knew how to understand God. This also makes it clearer why the Jews of the NT seemed so dumbfounded by the nature of God as represented by Jesus.
dermdoc
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Martin Q. Blank said:

dermdoc said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

dermdoc said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

dermdoc said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

Are you suggesting some portions of the Bible are the word of God, but not others?
Not at all. Suggesting that people who interpret the Bible are not inerrant.huge difference.
I don't know of anybody who thinks that.
Calvin much?
Calvin thought he was inerrant?
Maybe I should have said Calvinist much?
Calvinists think they are inerrant?


They think that their interpretation is inerrant. Have a good night?
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Scotts Tot
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What I'm suggesting is that while I do believe the Bible contains God's message to his people and reveals his nature in many ways, it's difficult for me to accept the Bible in its entirety as "God's Word" in the sense that it was taught in my upbringing (Southern Baptist), where I was encouraged to believe that every part of scripture reveals God's nature accurately and perfectly because he literally and verbally inspired every word.
Martin Q. Blank
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FlyFisher09 said:

What I'm suggesting is that while I do believe the Bible contains God's message to his people and reveals his nature in many ways, it's difficult for me to accept the Bible in its entirety as "God's Word" in the sense that it was taught in my upbringing (Southern Baptist), where I was encouraged to believe that every part of scripture reveals God's nature accurately and perfectly because he literally and verbally inspired every word.
1. Why would he do that? Reveal himself accurately in some portions of the Bible, but let people portray him inaccurately in others?
2. How do you distinguish what is accurate and what is not?
3. Jesus, the Apostles, the prophets, priests, etc. never treated Scripture this way. Seems to me that it was taken for granted that what they had was truth.
PacifistAg
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FlyFisher09 said:

Thanks for the suggestion and perspective! On the topic of the OT warrior God, it's much easier for me to accept that the Israelites were doing what other tribal cultures in that time and place did: invoke the name of their god in their attempts to gain land and resources through battle. Victories in battle were perceived as blessings or favors from the god(s) who delivered them. Perhaps this was the only way ancient Jews knew how to understand God. This also makes it clearer why the Jews of the NT seemed so dumbfounded by the nature of God as represented by Jesus.
Yes! It's important to understand these accounts in Ancient Near Eastern context. Boyd does a great job of not just looking at the OT text, but including the ANE context and how they worshiped their gods and the words they used when talking about genocide. He also spends several chapters, at least in Crucifixion of the Warrior God, going into differing views and criticisms of what he labels a cruciform hermeneutic.

In short, his premise is based on the belief that the truest and most accurate revelation of who God is can be seen in Christ crucified. Since Christ is the exact revelation of God's nature, then God must look like Christ. That should be the lens we use in understanding the Scripture. He then goes into reading the text through that lens. It's leads to a more coherent interpretation of Scripture where you're not having to pull muscles trying to justify infanticide. It helps address all the contradictions that Christians have long struggled with because of the inconsistent views of His nature that a flat reading results in.

One analogy I've liked to use is with shadow puppets. If I make a shadow puppet of a dog on the wall, someone may swear up and down that a dog is casting the shadow. They wouldn't be lying in saying so, but they also wouldn't be right. There's no way they would know though, so they make the declaration based on the information at hand. But then someone (Jesus) comes along and reveals to us that it's a person's hands casting the shadow. We can now see the true source of the shadow, and can say definitively that it wasn't a dog, but was really just two hands. The NT even refers to the OT as a shadow.

I cannot recommend the book enough. I'll even buy it for you if you want.
UTExan
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Well, let's kick things off with the elephant in the room: God's command to destroy Canaanite tribes---
Deuteronomy 20:

Quote:

10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace.11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subjectto forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the Lordyour God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it.14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.

16 However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.17 Completely destroy[a] themthe Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusitesas the Lord your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the Lord your God.
Is that command Christlike? Yes. The greater damage done by allowing them to live and subvert Israel outweighed the value of allowing them to live.Yet Israel's return to Canaan was prophesied:
Genesis 15:

Quote:

14 But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves, and afterward they will come out with great possessions. 15 You, however, will go to your ancestors in peace and be buried at a good old age. 16 In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure."
God would give the Amorites time to repent of their sins but they would not. Their sins "polluted the land" (Leviticus 18:25). Their sins seemed to include child/human sacrifice (also practiced by American Indians, it seems).

But I will venture a bit further in speculating that such systemic child sacrifice may also be connected with worship of demons: in fact may be inspired and demanded by those unholy entities.
It is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness- Sir Terence Pratchett
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”
dermdoc
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Martin Q. Blank said:

FlyFisher09 said:

What I'm suggesting is that while I do believe the Bible contains God's message to his people and reveals his nature in many ways, it's difficult for me to accept the Bible in its entirety as "God's Word" in the sense that it was taught in my upbringing (Southern Baptist), where I was encouraged to believe that every part of scripture reveals God's nature accurately and perfectly because he literally and verbally inspired every word.
1. Why would he do that? Reveal himself accurately in some portions of the Bible, but let people portray him inaccurately in others?
2. How do you distinguish what is accurate and what is not?
3. Jesus, the Apostles, the prophets, priests, etc. never treated Scripture this way. Seems to me that it was taken for granted that what they had was truth.


So there is still never ending smoke over Edom?
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dermdoc
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And was Origen or Augustine or Calvin correct? Same Scripture. Vastly different interpretations.
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PacifistAg
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Not to mention, the view of a genocidal God also requires an embrace of moral relativism.
Martin Q. Blank
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dermdoc said:

And was Origen or Augustine or Calvin correct? Same Scripture. Vastly different interpretations.
Again, OP is referring to the Bible itself, not interpretations or commentaries of the Bible.
Scotts Tot
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Martin Q. Blank said:

FlyFisher09 said:

What I'm suggesting is that while I do believe the Bible contains God's message to his people and reveals his nature in many ways, it's difficult for me to accept the Bible in its entirety as "God's Word" in the sense that it was taught in my upbringing (Southern Baptist), where I was encouraged to believe that every part of scripture reveals God's nature accurately and perfectly because he literally and verbally inspired every word.
1. Why would he do that? Reveal himself accurately in some portions of the Bible, but let people portray him inaccurately in others?
2. How do you distinguish what is accurate and what is not?
3. Jesus, the Apostles, the prophets, priests, etc. never treated Scripture this way. Seems to me that it was taken for granted that what they had was truth.

My suggestion is that the Bible is a record of differently people trying to understand and relate to God across many generations of Jewish culture. Some of those people missed the mark, as was eventually revealed by the true nature of God we meet in Jesus. Why God would allow inaccurate depictions of himself to appear in scripture? I don't know, but it's easier for me to accept that than to understand how God is at once ordering genocides and later sending Jesus to die out of unfathomable love for humanity.
PacifistAg
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FlyFisher09 said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

FlyFisher09 said:

What I'm suggesting is that while I do believe the Bible contains God's message to his people and reveals his nature in many ways, it's difficult for me to accept the Bible in its entirety as "God's Word" in the sense that it was taught in my upbringing (Southern Baptist), where I was encouraged to believe that every part of scripture reveals God's nature accurately and perfectly because he literally and verbally inspired every word.
1. Why would he do that? Reveal himself accurately in some portions of the Bible, but let people portray him inaccurately in others?
2. How do you distinguish what is accurate and what is not?
3. Jesus, the Apostles, the prophets, priests, etc. never treated Scripture this way. Seems to me that it was taken for granted that what they had was truth.

My suggestion is that the Bible is a record of differently people trying to understand and relate to God across many generations of Jewish culture. Some of those people missed the mark, as was eventually revealed by the true nature of God we meet in Jesus. Why God would allow inaccurate depictions of himself to appear in scripture? I don't know, but it's easier for me to accept that than to understand how God is at once ordering genocides and later sending Jesus to die out of unfathomable love for humanity.

Exactly. Either one of the depictions written down by flawed humans over thousands of years could have been slightly distorted (because they didn't have the exact revelation of God yet), or morality is relative and the are times when genocide and infanticide are moral. Of course, that also means that Christ isn't the exact revelation of God's nature.
Scotts Tot
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This is exactly the doctrine I find confusing. God ordered the genocide of Canaan because they were going to be a bad influence? How exactly is that Christlike?
PacifistAg
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If God commands genocide and infanticide, then that opens the door for their being cases where those acts are moral. I'm curious as to how many ministers used those depictions to justify the genocide of native populations. And using their reasoning, who is to turn say it's wrong? Who is to say the Rwandan genocide was wrong? I mean, were they just being imitators of the genocidal god they worship?
UTExan
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FlyFisher09 said:

This is exactly the doctrine I find confusing. God ordered the genocide of Canaan because they were going to be a bad influence? How exactly is that Christlike?
I figured that was the point of contention. My (limited) perspective is that their allegiance to and worship of actual demons drove their cruelty and child sacrifice. If the US endured a bloody civil war for the sin of cruel slavery, their sin may have been much greater in offering up child sacrifices. There are those who hold that the Genesis 6 corruption of mankind by the fallen angels involved genetic corruption. This man offers some elaboration and is worth the watch.
It is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness- Sir Terence Pratchett
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”
Aggie4Life02
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AG
I don't get the objection about the conquest of Canaan. God literally kills every single person who ever lives. Why are people so offended by conquest. God is the creator of all things. Thus he is the owner of all things. The owner of a thing gets to decide what happens to that thing.
PacifistAg
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FlyFisher09 said:

This is exactly the doctrine I find confusing. God ordered the genocide of Canaan because they were going to be a bad influence? How exactly is that Christlike?

Not to mention, the "command" to commit genocide and infanticide against the Amalekites was for something that occurred 400 years prior. So to hold the belief, would be to hold the belief that God commanded genocide for the actions of ancestors. It's like claiming God commanded that all modern Americans be exterminated - men, women and children - for the actions of the earliest colonists.

That's not Jesus.
Scotts Tot
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Aggie4Life02 said:

I don't get the objection about the conquest of Canaan. God literally kills every single person who ever lives. Why are people so offended by conquest. God is the creator of all things. Thus he is the owner of all things. The owner of a thing gets to decide what happens to that thing.

I understand what you're saying here, but my issue isn't whether God has the ability or right to order the conquest. My focus is whether it's in his nature to do so.
Aggie4Life02
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FlyFisher09 said:

Aggie4Life02 said:

I don't get the objection about the conquest of Canaan. God literally kills every single person who ever lives. Why are people so offended by conquest. God is the creator of all things. Thus he is the owner of all things. The owner of a thing gets to decide what happens to that thing.

I understand what you're saying here, but my issue isn't whether God has the ability or right to order the conquest. My focus is whether it's in his nature to do so.


Of course it is. God literally kills everyone. (Except Elijah and Enoch).
Sapper Redux
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Aggie4Life02 said:

FlyFisher09 said:

Aggie4Life02 said:

I don't get the objection about the conquest of Canaan. God literally kills every single person who ever lives. Why are people so offended by conquest. God is the creator of all things. Thus he is the owner of all things. The owner of a thing gets to decide what happens to that thing.

I understand what you're saying here, but my issue isn't whether God has the ability or right to order the conquest. My focus is whether it's in his nature to do so.


Of course it is. God literally kills everyone. (Except Elijah and Enoch).


How are you able to worship this thing under this philosophy and claim it is good?
Aggie4Life02
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Dr. Watson said:

Aggie4Life02 said:

FlyFisher09 said:

Aggie4Life02 said:

I don't get the objection about the conquest of Canaan. God literally kills every single person who ever lives. Why are people so offended by conquest. God is the creator of all things. Thus he is the owner of all things. The owner of a thing gets to decide what happens to that thing.

I understand what you're saying here, but my issue isn't whether God has the ability or right to order the conquest. My focus is whether it's in his nature to do so.


Of course it is. God literally kills everyone. (Except Elijah and Enoch).


How are you able to worship this thing under this philosophy and claim it is good?


Because he gave me life and everything I have. He knows infinitely more than me and he knows infinitely more about goodness than me. He is worthy of my worship.
Scotts Tot
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Aggie4Life02 said:

Dr. Watson said:

Aggie4Life02 said:

FlyFisher09 said:

Aggie4Life02 said:

I don't get the objection about the conquest of Canaan. God literally kills every single person who ever lives. Why are people so offended by conquest. God is the creator of all things. Thus he is the owner of all things. The owner of a thing gets to decide what happens to that thing.

I understand what you're saying here, but my issue isn't whether God has the ability or right to order the conquest. My focus is whether it's in his nature to do so.


Of course it is. God literally kills everyone. (Except Elijah and Enoch).


How are you able to worship this thing under this philosophy and claim it is good?


Because he gave me life and everything I have. He knows infinitely more than me and he knows infinitely more about goodness than me. He is worthy of my worship.

Do you believe that God has an active role in causing the death of every human? This is what your comment implies, that God killed the victims in the Holocaust, the WTC towers, every natural disaster, etc. I understand that in his omnipotence God could stop these things but doesn't always do so, but saying God "kills" everyone implies he actively causes these things to happen.
 
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