Id agree but the Catholic Church hides the molestation they are overseeing

DaBaba said:

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Id agree but the Catholic Church hides the molestation they are overseeing

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The premise that greater involvement of the laity would help could work, I suppose, as long as they are fully apprised of any allegation of impropriety and immediatey inform law enforcement. But that begs the question of why the church doesn't do that in the first place.

Second, while the US church could clean up its act, that would do very little to change he culture of the Vatican, which has been complicit in covering up crimes and moving abusers from parish to parish.

A full accounting of the church's crimes would implicate the most powerful individuals at the Vatican, and they have no interest in admitting their own complicity.

The entire structure is rotten and morally depraved. I have no idea how anyone can continue to be involved with an institution that has committed so many heinous crimes, yet refuses to change.

See what I mean? The Roman Church is not the bishops and priests. It is the laity and the clergy together. When I say the laity need to be more responsible, part of it is exactly what is being said here. How can the laity allow the clergy to cover this stuff up? They don't get a pass either. The laity can't say well the church needs to fix it. No! The laity IS the church.

k2aggie07 said:

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See what I mean? The Roman Church is not the bishops and priests. It is the laity and the clergy together. When I say the laity need to be more responsible, part of it is exactly what is being said here. How can the laity allow the clergy to cover this stuff up? They don't get a pass either. The laity can't say well the church needs to fix it. No! The laity IS the church.

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Do the laity ordain priests? Do they select them? Once a priest is ordained it's typically forever, correct (much like a marriage where they don't recognize divorce, only annulment)? If a priest has been ordained forever and the clergy absolves of sin, why should the laity have any say? They've been forgiven and ordained forever. Who are the laity to object? And why would the clergy listen, given how the funds / donations are managed? The RCC exists with near empty churches all overnight Europe. It could theoretically go on forever.

AGC said:

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k2aggie07 said:

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See what I mean? The Roman Church is not the bishops and priests. It is the laity and the clergy together. When I say the laity need to be more responsible, part of it is exactly what is being said here. How can the laity allow the clergy to cover this stuff up? They don't get a pass either. The laity can't say well the church needs to fix it. No! The laity IS the church.

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Do the laity ordain priests? Do they select them? Once a priest is ordained it's typically forever, correct (much like a marriage where they don't recognize divorce, only annulment)? If a priest has been ordained forever and the clergy absolves of sin, why should the laity have any say? They've been forgiven and ordained forever. Who are the laity to object? And why would the clergy listen, given how the funds / donations are managed? The RCC exists with near empty churches all overnight Europe. It could theoretically go on forever.

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The laity are the victims. They need to stop thinking of 'the church' as 'THE CHURCH'.
It's people who seem to commit crimes frequently and until someone starts putting them in prison, they will continue to do so. If they want to absolve themselves of sin, cool, go for it. That doesn't absolve them of crimes.

Dallas82 said:

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AGC said:

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k2aggie07 said:

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See what I mean? The Roman Church is not the bishops and priests. It is the laity and the clergy together. When I say the laity need to be more responsible, part of it is exactly what is being said here. How can the laity allow the clergy to cover this stuff up? They don't get a pass either. The laity can't say well the church needs to fix it. No! The laity IS the church.

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Do the laity ordain priests? Do they select them? Once a priest is ordained it's typically forever, correct (much like a marriage where they don't recognize divorce, only annulment)? If a priest has been ordained forever and the clergy absolves of sin, why should the laity have any say? They've been forgiven and ordained forever. Who are the laity to object? And why would the clergy listen, given how the funds / donations are managed? The RCC exists with near empty churches all overnight Europe. It could theoretically go on forever.

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The laity are the victims. They need to stop thinking of 'the church' as 'THE CHURCH'.
It's people who seem to commit crimes frequently and until someone starts putting them in prison, they will continue to do so. If they want to absolve themselves of sin, cool, go for it. That doesn't absolve them of crimes.

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This gets to the heart of the Reformation.

Rome wasn't built on balance of the Priest's and Laity. Rome was built on belief and trust in the Priest's and the Pope at the fear of mortal sin.

It is when the Reformers began actually reading the sources that the wild claims fell apart.

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Do the laity ordain priests? Do they select them? Once a priest is ordained it's typically forever, correct (much like a marriage where they don't recognize divorce, only annulment)? If a priest has been ordained forever and the clergy absolves of sin, why should the laity have any say? They've been forgiven and ordained forever. Who are the laity to object? And why would the clergy listen, given how the funds / donations are managed? The RCC exists with near empty churches all overnight Europe. It could theoretically go on forever.

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No idea how Rome does it, but in the Orthodox side the priest's ordination can be rejected by the laity. Just as the laity have the role to say "amen" at the Eucharistic blessing, the laity say "axios!" or "he is worthy!" at an ordination.

Also, in the East, we do not recognize the blessing of priesthood as an eternal thing the way Rome does. If you're removed from the clergy or "laicized" you no longer are a priest and no longer have the blessing to be a priest or the spiritual charism that accompanies it.

The priest serves the laity, not the other way around. If the parish priest is a fornicator, or a child predator, the laity is under no obligation to even eat with him, much less to take the Eucharist from his hands, to confess to him, or in any way receive him into the church. The scriptures are clear -

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But now, I wrote to you not to associate with anyone being designated a brother if he is sexually immoral or a coveter, or an idolater or verbal abuser, or a drunkard or swindlerwith such a one do not even eat. For what is it to me to judge those outside? Do you not judge those within? But God will judge those outside. "Expel the evil out from among yourselves."

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The laity should refuse these priests their office. Physically, if necessary.

As an aside, the RCC receives tax income in Europe. It is not so here. If the laity chose, they could easily financially punish the church here. I also don't know the percentages, but I know some Roman properties legally belong to the parish, not the diocese or church at large. If it comes down to brass tacks, those parishes - many of whom are incorporated and enjoy a very strong legal position - could simply refuse access to anyone they wish. A dispute over an abusive priest (verbal, racist - not of this particular nature) in Houston a while back led to this at a Greek Orthodox parish. Nasty business, but necessary if the bishop won't listen.

https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/texas/article/texas-priest-dallas-sexul-abuse-molesting-catholic-13168285.php?ipid=houstonhomepage#item-85307-tbla-5

'Enough: It's time to disband the US Bishops' Conference'
https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/enough-its-time-to-disband-the-us-bishops-conference

So his solution to widespread pedophilia, cover ups, and institutionalized perversion is to have the bishops be less politically liberal?

The only solution to this sort of thing is transparency. Shine a light and the roaches scatter. If that means bringing lay people into every single level of Church administration then so be it. Confession need to be the only secret thing in the whole church.

What not to do....

https://chicago.cbslocal.com/video/3921501-priest-badly-bruised-after-hate-crime-beating-in-indiana/

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10160932875720464&id=505380463

Yikes

Bishop Barron's thoughts on what to do seem reasonable.

Watch the video here:http://bit.ly/2MUFQrP

John Piper has some suggestions for Pope requirements:

I thought the requirements were expertise in climate change and immigration?

k2aggie07 said:

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That tweet made me physically gag.

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Yeah, I figured that would test the gag reflexes of many here.

Dad-O-Lot said:

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XUSCR said:

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Bishop Barron's thoughts on what to do seem reasonable.

Watch the video here:http://bit.ly/2MUFQrP

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Additional comments from Bishop Barron:

Why remain Catholic?

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Bishop Barron. Good podcaster.

ramblin_ag02 said:

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So his solution to widespread pedophilia, cover ups, and institutionalized perversion is to have the bishops be less politically liberal?

The only solution to this sort of thing is transparency. Shine a light and the roaches scatter. If that means bringing lay people into every single level of Church administration then so be it. Confession need to be the only secret thing in the whole church.

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https://www.theonion.com/pope-promises-more-open-transparent-molestation-in-fut-1828663069

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And you say, "Well okay, Bishop, I get it. But how do I fight?" Look: You fight through your own righteous anger. You fight by writing a letter to your Bishop, a letter to the Pope. You fight by your very presence at Mass. You fight by keeping people's feet to the fire. You fight by organizing your fellow Catholics. Fight any way you can. But you fight because you believe in the Church; you love the Church; and you realize that despite this terrible blight, it's worth fighting for.

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Fight back by being the best Catholic ever, donating to the Catholic Church, attending Mass, engaging the Sacraments, and writing letters about how bad sexual predation is. That'll teach em

The Onion!

k2aggie07 said:

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That tweet made me physically gag.

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That tweet is a non-exhaustive list of reasons I converted to Catholicism.

No idea to the validity of this, but saw this on reddit:

ramblin_ag02 said:

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And you say, "Well okay, Bishop, I get it. But how do I fight?" Look: You fight through your own righteous anger. You fight by writing a letter to your Bishop, a letter to the Pope. You fight by your very presence at Mass. You fight by keeping people's feet to the fire. You fight by organizing your fellow Catholics. Fight any way you can. But you fight because you believe in the Church; you love the Church; and you realize that despite this terrible blight, it's worth fighting for.

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Fight back by being the best Catholic ever, donating to the Catholic Church, attending Mass, engaging the Sacraments, and writing letters about how bad sexual predation is. That'll teach em

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I was commenting that I generally enjoy his podcast, not about that specific one. I think I've been very clear about what I think about their response.