Need your help Texags

2,308 Views | 59 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by swimmerbabe11
Ex-liberalag12
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Hello. I thought long and hard if I should make this post and I think it's definitely a last resort and I suppose when we are desperate we will try anyting.

I'm a counselor and I'm working with a 17 year old who is in the hospital for suicidal ideation. That's all I can ethically share about the situation. I'm not a philosopher and he is. He knows alot about philosophy and religion ( he doesn't believe in God) and he likes Niche. He basically says nothing matters and everything is going to end anyways so why try. I have used many things but obviously it's not working for him to want to live. I want to help him and do everything I can. He is also so young as well. Thoughts on philosophies or things I can say in the situation that you think might be helpful from a philosophical perspective and if so please share which philosopher it is. Thank you so much.
Ex-liberalag12
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Please know I didn't want to go on a football forum and post this but I am desperate to get information and thoughts philosophically. I also have seen good discussions about philosophy on here. Thank You...
Render
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AG
No offense, but if this is true, this boy needs to see a licensed mental health therapist, not debate philosophy with a counselor.

But if you want tips, I'm assuming by "Niche" you mean Friedrich Nietzsche. It's typical hack fraud bs that entraps too many people. He's 17, so he doesn't even really understand where Nietzsche was coming from - he hasn't lived life enough to understand. A main aspect of what Nietzsche was doing, was calling people to undertake a sort of heroic campaign, to bravely look the meaninglessness of life (sometimes called "the void" or "abyss") in the face and forge themselves into whatever image they please, unchained from Judeo-Christian values and societal peer pressure. They think that by doing this, they will be happy. For the kid to instead despair in the face of the void, to me, means he really hasn't accepted the tenets he says he does. Or he's ignorant of what Nietzsche advocated. Either way, he's obviously unhappy.

Reading books or engaging in long-winded debate won't do any good because they aren't immediate- instead, use short videos with high-production value that discusses views contrary to his own. So, I'd have him chew on this. It has a good hook, it's short, and it's effective.

If he refuses, call him a coward. A real philosopher would engage with any critical thinker, no matter how much he disagrees with him. And if he refuses out of "principle" to the whole sex abuse scandal, say "Hey, if the Church is already wrong, what do you have to lose listening to him? People listen to Hitler's speeches out of curiosity, even after he lost. So what's the harm?"

If he does watch it, I'd have him watch other videos from Bishop Robert Barron. His YouTube channel is called "Bishop Robert Barron". The boy will need dramatic examples to shake him out of his apathy, so you need to directly combat his opinions. Bishop Barron's videos are compelling and concise, so they will do that. Don't appeal to emotion, because this kid has convinced himself that emotion and morality, etc. are all bs societal constructs. Instead, use logic - Catholicism is very, very high-powered in this department. Fight fire with fire. (Note: Show him videos dealing with God, meaning, the universe, etc. Not videos about doctrine or contemporary issues.)

As for you, I'd brush up on the historical context of Nietzsche and the psychological impact his philosophy will have on a person.
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/nietzsche-and-the-nietzscheans-shaping-the-culture-of-death

It's a Catholic article, but its purpose for you is that it clearly lays out the common sense impact such a philosophy will have on a person's psyche - let alone a boy of 17. It will hopefully give you insights into what you are dealing with.

Good luck (assuming this is all legit)
Ex-liberalag12
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He won't read anything that has a notion of a higher power in it but regardless, good info. in your post. And yes Counselors use existential clinical interventions when needed as well. Thank You...
Aggrad08
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Yea YouTube videos of people regurgitating Aquinas isn't going to help either. You had it right to begin with. Get him some actual help from a professional, rather than offer silly 'proofs' for God.

He's depressed not confused about the supposed truth of Christianity. You'd have as much luck exorcising a demon from him.
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ramblin_ag02
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I think the philosophy here is a red herring. The boy is depressed and in despair. As was mentioned above, existentialism may sound dark and Gothic and depressing, but it was actually meant to be liberating. After all, if there's no God, no karma, no cosmic consequences, then you are free to be whoever you want without guilt or imposed obligation. Nothing matters so just be yourself and live whatever kind of life you want to live.

Baseless presumptions to follow, so feel free to completely disregard: Giving a guess based on the time of year and age, I would guess that this young man is likely entering his final year of high school. He is probably starting to stare straight into the face of his future after high school, and he is scared and feels a ton of pressure to succeed. This stress of causing a propensity for depression to show itself or worsen (which is incredibly common at his age). So he goes looking for comfort and finds relief in the idea that his life doesn't matter. So even if he messes up his life, disappoints everyone, or even kills himself it's all no big deal because nihilism. He literally can't process the idea of a God that cares about him, because that would add another unbearable level of expectation to a burden he already can't handle. Appealing to his sense of self worth or the damage he could do to others with his self-harm will probably not be helpful, as that will just reinforce the pressure he feels from both himself and others.

Honestly, if I were counseling this theoretical person (that I don't know at all) right now I would steer into the skid. He is willing to meet you on a very limited philosophical level, and specifically on a level that actually should be making him feel liberated from all of these expectations. He has a very shallow and cherry picked view of existentialism in specific and philosophy in general. So try to help him educate himself more thoroughly on the view he has chosen and show why it doesn't fit his current actions. If he's amenable, then throw some of Plato's account of Socrates (the granddaddy of philosophy) in the mix. Socrates is continually throwing the idea of virtue and goodness into confusion, and it may make him feel less inadequate if he knows that everyone else is just a confused about everything as he is.

Finally, I would eventually expound that into the idea of human imperfection in general and from there to redemption and Christianity, but that would take a long time and a close relationship.
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PacifistAg
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ramblin_ag02 said:

I think the philosophy here is a red herring. The boy is depressed and in despair. As was mentioned above, existentialism may sound dark and Gothic and depressing, but it was actually meant to be liberating. After all, if there's no God, no karma, no cosmic consequences, then you are free to be whoever you want without guilt or imposed obligation. Nothing matters so just be yourself and live whatever kind of life you want to live.

Baseless presumptions to follow, so feel free to completely disregard: Giving a guess based on the time of year and age, I would guess that this young man is likely entering his final year of high school. He is probably starting to stare straight into the face of his future after high school, and he is scared and feels a ton of pressure to succeed. This stress of causing a propensity for depression to show itself or worsen (which is incredibly common at his age). So he goes looking for comfort and finds relief in the idea that his life doesn't matter. So even if he messes up his life, disappoints everyone, or even kills himself it's all no big deal because nihilism. He literally can't process the idea of a God that cares about him, because that would add another unbearable level of expectation to a burden he already can't handle. Appealing to his sense of self worth or the damage he could do to others with his self-harm will probably not be helpful, as that will just reinforce the pressure he feels from both himself and others.

Honestly, if I were counseling this theoretical person (that I don't know at all) right now I would steer into the skid. He is willing to meet you on a very limited philosophical level, and specifically on a level that actually should be making him feel liberated from all of these expectations. He has a very shallow and cherry picked view of existentialism in specific and philosophy in general. So try to help him educate himself more thoroughly on the view he has chosen and show why it doesn't fit his current actions. If he's amenable, then throw some of Plato's account of Socrates (the granddaddy of philosophy) in the mix. Socrates is continually throwing the idea of virtue and goodness into confusion, and it may make him feel less inadequate if he knows that everyone else is just a confused about everything as he is.

Finally, I would eventually expound that into the idea of human imperfection in general and from there to redemption and Christianity, but that would take a long time and a close relationship.
Agreed.
PacifistAg
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Quote:

If he refuses, call him a coward.
Goodness. Whatever you do, do not do this. This is an effective way to get him to puff up and harm himself simply out of spite. The kid is depressed, so it needs to be handled with care and empathy. I've struggled with crippling depression my entire life, and calling him names is not how you deal with it.

Also, please do not spread the false theology that says you go to hell if you commit suicide. First, it's simply wrong. Second, he doesn't believe in God so therefore that will be just as ineffective as calling him a coward. Fear and insults won't steer him back from the ledge. Compassion, understanding and empathy will. Build a relationship and just listen to him. Ask questions, but I would say the focus is to let him just talk. Then, when you build up that trust, you can start steering him towards a correct understanding of the philosophy he espouses.
americathegreat1492
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I would say how he ended up here matters a lot, and will determine how you or anyone else talks with him. Here is my story about nihilism, in which I hope it will be clear that how I ended up there was directly related to how I found my way out.

I struggled with nihilism for nearly 20 years, starting when I was young. Early on I felt like life wasn't worth living, and later began to analyze life from a rational, evidence-based perspective. That perspective reinforced my nihilism. Now, I was also depressed off and on during all of this time, and saw doctors and therapists of various kinds and tried medications of various kinds. Not a piece of it did anything. Drugs blunted the ability to feel the emotion of despair, but the rationally drawn conclusion of meaninglessness remained. By and large, the therapists weren't smart. They were unable to engage me intellectually, were overly positive about the direction of life (which made no sense and frankly still doesn't), and seemed focused on what I would call "yes, but's." The foundation of meaninglessness didn't begin to crack until I started exploring eastern meditative practices and stumbled on the Buddha's postulate about the nature of existence "Life is suffering." It certainly matched the conclusion I had drawn about life. That was maybe 10 years ago. But still, I struggled with nihilism. Beyond the normal sorts of suffering that people endure like wishing you had more of X attribute, I wasn't suffering too much at the time and managed to muddle through. That all changed when I became faced with actual suffering. When the physical body, the thing that appears to be YOU, begins to break down it puts your values and your character to the truest test. I simply fell deeper into despair, having a foundation of nihilism. Wrapped up in this, and something that I didn't realize until later, was how I used to view goals. I saw a goal as an end. Here is this thing that I want, and I'm going to do these things in order to get it. I saw the "getting it" part of the goal as the desirable part, and it is to some degree. The problem I was noticing was that every time I would achieve a goal, I would get the thing I wanted and feel good for a little while. If it was a small goal maybe I'd feel good for a few minutes, a really big goal I'd feel good for a few days. The problem was that, inevitably, that feeling would DIE, and I would be left with the suffering and the negative emotions that I was forced to deal with. The conclusion I drew was that goals were pointless. There was never one goal that I could set such that when I achieved it then I would finally be DONE. That all fed right in to the nihilism. Another thing that I didn't realize until later, was that at the time I was very happiness focused. My goal for life was to "be happy." Sounds a lot like what many people consider. We choose a particular career, a significant other, a hobby, etc. because "it makes us happy." The problem was, happiness never lasted. No matter what I did, no matter who I was with, no matter what goal I achieved, I would always end up feeling bad. Nihilism, nihilism, and more nihilism. The cool thing is, I'm not nihilistic anymore.

I still struggle with some stuff, and who wouldn't considering the nature of how life can be. The difference today is that I no longer despair. That may be an initial reaction, but then the courage to face whatever the issue is kicks in. I started to turn everything around when I was listening to the Joe Rogan podcast back in November of I think 2016. So, it was close to two years ago. Rogan's guest that day happened to be Jordan Peterson. I didn't think too much of it but the dude sounded like he had some intesting ideas, so I went looking for his stuff on youtube. I ended up watching a lot of his stuff, including his entire maps of meaning lecture series. It gave me some interesting ideas, but things were still percolating. My starting point was that life sucks, it's awful, I can't do anything about it, and none of it matters anyway. Peterson's suggestion was, maybe you CAN do something about it, even if it's small. Some time later, I actually took a stab at some improvement in my life. I set some very very small goals (like get X, Y, and Z done today) and accomplished them. I felt good, but this wasn't feeling good because I accomplished the goal, it was feeling good because I COULD ACCOMPLISH GOALS. That's when the switch started to flip. I started viewing goals differently. Goals were not an end or a means to the end of happiness. Setting goals, even small ones, were a way for me to demonstrate to myself that I could actually do some things. What I also realized was that when I did some things, THINGS ACTUALLY GOT BETTER. I still had to deal with crap and still do, but that's not the point. The point was, that no matter how bad things were for me at the time, if I do some stuff, even small stuff, things could get a little better. More importantly, not only could things get a little better, I was ACTUALLY CAPABLE of doing some things. Never underestimate the ability to demonstrate to yourself in a compelling way that you are actually competent and capable of something. An interesting way of thinking about depression that I heard somewhere is the following. There are two lower types of depression (essentially). They have to do with the conclusions you draw. The lowest form of depression draws the conclusion "I can't, and no one can." Above that is the form of depression that draws the conclusion "I can't, but maybe someone else can." Rising above depression is courage, and the conclusion from courage is "I can." "I can," even in the smallest way, has made all the difference.

Thinking more about your description of this kid, I doubt my story applies to him at all. I think the point is clear from my story that maybe you need to ascertain what his motivations are in arriving at this conclusion. What are the unconscious factors? Did he end up there legitimately? Does he constitutionally tend towards negative emotionality? Has he felt weak most of his life? Is this his form of "teenage rebellion?" Does he seem angry? Is he intent on hurting people in an emotional way? Does he feel hurt? etc. I think how he ended up here and his underlying motivation matters a lot in terms of how you talk to him about it. Some people are nihilistic because they are depressed. Others are depressed because they are nihilistic. I was the latter and trying to "fix my depression" did absolutely nothing.
Ex-liberalag12
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Thanks everyone. And are there other philosophers opposite to Niche?
Star Wars Memes Only
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Quote:

Niche


Nietzsche.
Render
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AstroAg17 said:

Showing him the Catholic video and calling him a coward is a bad plan.

I'm calling him coward not to insult him, by to appeal to his sense of being a philosopher. If he's so big and bad with his mind, if he thinks he's so much better than all the sheeple, then prove it. You need to get past his initial knee jerk bias. Slapping him around a bit may do that. He's probably never wrestled with someone else with opposing views. The shock may be cathartic for him; impose limits and opposition on people and they'll be inclined to rise to the challenge.

(And you wouldn't point blank call him coward. You'd say, "Well, I thought you were smart. I guess you really aren't that sure after all. Maybe you're scared you'll be wrong...")
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Render said:


I'm calling him coward not to insult him, by to appeal to his sense of being a philosopher. If he's so big and bad with his mind, if he thinks he's so much better than all the sheeple, then prove it.


The kid seems honestly depressed. You're describing him as though he's that euphoric atheist from reddit. This doesn't seem to be a case of someone "enlightened by their own intelligence" but someone suffering from a mental illness.
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Render said:


(And you wouldn't point blank call him coward. You'd say, "Well, I thought you were smart. I guess you really aren't that sure after all. Maybe you're scared you'll be wrong...")


If someone said this to me I would think they were full of themself and ignore them purely on principle.
Render
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Aggrad08 said:

Yea YouTube videos of people regurgitating Aquinas isn't going to help either. You had it right to begin with. Get him some actual help from a professional, rather than offer silly 'proofs' for God.

He's depressed not confused about the supposed truth of Christianity. You'd have as much luck exorcising a demon from him.

"regurgitating Aquinas"

Uh-huh. The man's a powerhouse of theology and philosophy. To downplay him like that would be like downplaying Einstein. Check your bias, hombre. I could've listed other theologians - John Henry Newman, Augustine, Bellarmine, Catherine of Siena, Bonaventure, etc etc etc - but Aquinas is a good starter. And those "silly proofs" offer a bedrock foundation for observing the world. Again, check your bias, hombre

And the larger point is to get him to consider the logical reasons for why people believe in God. Most people don't know - especially atheists (speaking very generally I know, but whatever) - the logical theological arguments for God.

Showing him philosophies is pointless, because his worldview is coming from an objective point of view. To him, those philosophies are just subjective ways of looking at the world. They have no objectivity to them, unlike his view: There is no God = there is no objective meaning = nothing objectively matters, it's all subjective.

You gotta counter that by presenting the opposite objective view: There is a God = there is objective meaning = stuff objectively matters, there is objective truth in the world. Theology is the perfect counter.
PacifistAg
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Render said:

AstroAg17 said:

Showing him the Catholic video and calling him a coward is a bad plan.

I'm calling him coward not to insult him, by to appeal to his sense of being a philosopher. If he's so big and bad with his mind, if he thinks he's so much better than all the sheeple, then prove it. You need to get past his initial knee jerk bias. Slapping him around a bit may do that. He's probably never wrestled with someone else with opposing views. The shock may be cathartic for him; impose limits and opposition on people and they'll be inclined to rise to the challenge.

(And you wouldn't point blank call him coward. You'd say, "Well, I thought you were smart. I guess you really aren't that sure after all. Maybe you're scared you'll be wrong...")
You aren't insulting to insult him? Well, if he's depressed, he's most likely going to take it solely as an insult, especially if he struggles with a sense of self-worth. This isn't about winning same philosophical debate with a 17 year old. That can be done, of course, but only after he's walked back from the ledge. And it can also be done without insulting a 17 year old. It needs to be done with compassion. You don't need to "slap him around a bit". He needs to feel valued and loved.

Insulting him will only put him on the defensive and likely shut him off to anything else you say. You'll no longer be someone with whom he can confide in, but you'll be an adversary. That's not how you deal with depression.
Render
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dargscisyhp said:

Render said:


(And you wouldn't point blank call him coward. You'd say, "Well, I thought you were smart. I guess you really aren't that sure after all. Maybe you're scared you'll be wrong...")

If someone said this to me I would think they were full of themself and ignore them purely on principle.

Man you people are dense. Do y'all really not get the larger point I'm making? The goal is to engage with him. To wrestle with his opinions. You would first establish a rapport, then work to present differing views to him. Sure, my above sounds caustic, but not if you've established a rapport and use a TONE that frames the words in an inviting way. Like two friends playing Truth or Dare. "C'mon, Joey? You're not nervous are ya? You chose dare, so you gotta ring old man Johnson's doorbell!"

Use your common sense people. Geez.
PacifistAg
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Quote:

You gotta counter that by presenting the opposite objective view: There is a God = there is objective meaning = stuff objectively matters, there is objective truth in the world. Theology is the perfect counter.
No, it's not the perfect counter if he's going to immediately shut you out because you insult him and try to beat him over the head with it. Love is the perfect counter. You can have all the right "philosophical" answers. All the right theology. But without love, you're just a noisy gong.

Again, in my experience of depression and having seen too many friends take their lives because of depression, your way is beyond objectionable.
PacifistAg
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Render said:

dargscisyhp said:

Render said:


(And you wouldn't point blank call him coward. You'd say, "Well, I thought you were smart. I guess you really aren't that sure after all. Maybe you're scared you'll be wrong...")

If someone said this to me I would think they were full of themself and ignore them purely on principle.

Man you people are dense. Do y'all really not get the larger point I'm making? The goal is to engage with him. To wrestle with his opinions. You would first establish a rapport, then work to present differing views to him. Sure, my above sounds caustic, but not if you've established a rapport and use a TONE that frames the words in an inviting way. Like two friends playing Truth or Dare. "C'mon, Joey? You're not nervous are ya? You chose dare, so you gotta ring old man Johnson's doorbell!"

Use your common sense people. Geez.
Why are insults your go-to? First you want to insult a suicidal teenager. Now you insult those of us who tell you that your approach is flawed. Please stay away from people suffering with depression.
Star Wars Memes Only
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If outside, dispassionate observers are taking it so negatively it doesn't seem unreasonable that someone in the kid's frame of mind is going to take it even worse. But even if the kid didn't take it the way we are, even if you had built a rapport and he "got" your tone and all that, do you really expect to chaff someone into considering your philosophical point of view?
americathegreat1492
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I don't know what kind of atheist this kid is, but ask him if he knows who Sam Harris is. I don't find Harris to be convincing on issues of meaning, value, and morality, but certainly some people do and Harris comes at it from a scientific and rational perspective since he is also an atheist. The Moral Landscape is the book that he goes into detail on this with.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/143917122X/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_bibl_vppi_i5


I'm not suggesting that you read this and parrot Harris's viewpoint, but rather that the kid might try reading it. Depending on the kind of atheist this kid is you might even have him research Harris or read something like The End of Faith first. Get him to first think that Harris has some useful things to say. If you simply tell him to read The Moral Landscape he's unlikely to give it a good shake.
PacifistAg
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dargscisyhp said:

If outside, dispassionate observers are taking it so negatively it doesn't seem unreasonable that someone in the kid's frame of mind is going to take it even worse. But even if the kid didn't take it the way we are, even if you had built a rapport and he "got" your tone and all that, do you really expect to chaff someone into considering your philosophical point of view?
And if his response to dispassionate observers disagreeing with him is to insult them, what's his next insult going to be when the kid pushes back and rejects his theological bullying?
Render
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RetiredAg said:

Render said:

AstroAg17 said:

Showing him the Catholic video and calling him a coward is a bad plan.

I'm calling him coward not to insult him, by to appeal to his sense of being a philosopher. If he's so big and bad with his mind, if he thinks he's so much better than all the sheeple, then prove it. You need to get past his initial knee jerk bias. Slapping him around a bit may do that. He's probably never wrestled with someone else with opposing views. The shock may be cathartic for him; impose limits and opposition on people and they'll be inclined to rise to the challenge.

(And you wouldn't point blank call him coward. You'd say, "Well, I thought you were smart. I guess you really aren't that sure after all. Maybe you're scared you'll be wrong...")
You aren't insulting to insult him? Well, if he's depressed, he's most likely going to take it solely as an insult, especially if he struggles with a sense of self-worth. This isn't about winning same philosophical debate with a 17 year old. That can be done, of course, but only after he's walked back from the ledge. And it can also be done without insulting a 17 year old. It needs to be done with compassion. You don't need to "slap him around a bit". He needs to feel valued and loved.

Insulting him will only put him on the defensive and likely shut him off to anything else you say. You'll no longer be someone with whom he can confide in, but you'll be an adversary. That's not how you deal with depression.

I didn't think I'd have to spell this out, but challenges to his worldview would only come AFTER he's reached a point of stability. I'm not advocating calling him a piece of *hit when he's on the roof. I thought that was obvious, but I guess not for some people.
PacifistAg
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Render said:

RetiredAg said:

Render said:

AstroAg17 said:

Showing him the Catholic video and calling him a coward is a bad plan.

I'm calling him coward not to insult him, by to appeal to his sense of being a philosopher. If he's so big and bad with his mind, if he thinks he's so much better than all the sheeple, then prove it. You need to get past his initial knee jerk bias. Slapping him around a bit may do that. He's probably never wrestled with someone else with opposing views. The shock may be cathartic for him; impose limits and opposition on people and they'll be inclined to rise to the challenge.

(And you wouldn't point blank call him coward. You'd say, "Well, I thought you were smart. I guess you really aren't that sure after all. Maybe you're scared you'll be wrong...")
You aren't insulting to insult him? Well, if he's depressed, he's most likely going to take it solely as an insult, especially if he struggles with a sense of self-worth. This isn't about winning same philosophical debate with a 17 year old. That can be done, of course, but only after he's walked back from the ledge. And it can also be done without insulting a 17 year old. It needs to be done with compassion. You don't need to "slap him around a bit". He needs to feel valued and loved.

Insulting him will only put him on the defensive and likely shut him off to anything else you say. You'll no longer be someone with whom he can confide in, but you'll be an adversary. That's not how you deal with depression.

I didn't think I'd have to spell this out, but challenges to his worldview would only come AFTER he's reached a point of stability. I'm not advocating calling him a piece of *hit when he's on the roof. I thought that was obvious, but I guess not for some people.
There you are with the insults again. Again, please stay away from those suffering from depression. Your approach will only push them closer to the ledge.
Render
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RetiredAg said:

Render said:

dargscisyhp said:

Render said:


(And you wouldn't point blank call him coward. You'd say, "Well, I thought you were smart. I guess you really aren't that sure after all. Maybe you're scared you'll be wrong...")

If someone said this to me I would think they were full of themself and ignore them purely on principle.

Man you people are dense. Do y'all really not get the larger point I'm making? The goal is to engage with him. To wrestle with his opinions. You would first establish a rapport, then work to present differing views to him. Sure, my above sounds caustic, but not if you've established a rapport and use a TONE that frames the words in an inviting way. Like two friends playing Truth or Dare. "C'mon, Joey? You're not nervous are ya? You chose dare, so you gotta ring old man Johnson's doorbell!"

Use your common sense people. Geez.
Why are insults your go-to? First you want to insult a suicidal teenager. Now you insult those of us who tell you that your approach is flawed. Please stay away from people suffering with depression.

I'm not insulting you. I'm being snarky. There's a difference. See past my use of snark and hyperbole and look at the larger points I'm making.

And you're mischaracterizing my approach (either deliberately or not, I don't know), so of course I'm gonna push back. You're in effect saying that I'm advocating people be uncompassionate to suicidial people. I'm not. I'm saying once they reach a point of stability, then engage with them. In this kid's case, engage with him in such a way that he'll see past his bias and look at differing views.
PacifistAg
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Render said:

RetiredAg said:

Render said:

dargscisyhp said:

Render said:


(And you wouldn't point blank call him coward. You'd say, "Well, I thought you were smart. I guess you really aren't that sure after all. Maybe you're scared you'll be wrong...")

If someone said this to me I would think they were full of themself and ignore them purely on principle.

Man you people are dense. Do y'all really not get the larger point I'm making? The goal is to engage with him. To wrestle with his opinions. You would first establish a rapport, then work to present differing views to him. Sure, my above sounds caustic, but not if you've established a rapport and use a TONE that frames the words in an inviting way. Like two friends playing Truth or Dare. "C'mon, Joey? You're not nervous are ya? You chose dare, so you gotta ring old man Johnson's doorbell!"

Use your common sense people. Geez.
Why are insults your go-to? First you want to insult a suicidal teenager. Now you insult those of us who tell you that your approach is flawed. Please stay away from people suffering with depression.

I'm not insulting you. I'm being snarky. There's a difference. See past my use of snark and hyperbole and look at the larger points I'm making.

And you're mischaracterizing my approach (either deliberately or not, I don't know), so of course I'm gonna push back. You're in effect saying that I'm advocating people be uncompassionate to suicidial people. I'm not. I'm saying once they reach a point of stability, then engage with them. In this kid's case, engage with him in such a way that he'll see past his bias and look at differing views.
No, you're being insulting. Calling people dense is an insult. Implying we aren't using common sense is insulting.

And no, I fully understand your approach. I'm saying it's fundamentally flawed and a horrible way to approach someone who is struggling with depression. That you resort to insults with people here doesn't inspire much confidence that you wouldn't do the same with this kid when he pushes back.

There's been actual good input on this thread, so I don't want it derailed by addressing your propensity to insult those that disagree with your method. It's also not on topic, so this will be my last post. I am hopeful that the OP will listen to the actual constructive advice.
Render
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AG
RetiredAg said:

Render said:

RetiredAg said:

Render said:

dargscisyhp said:

Render said:


(And you wouldn't point blank call him coward. You'd say, "Well, I thought you were smart. I guess you really aren't that sure after all. Maybe you're scared you'll be wrong...")

If someone said this to me I would think they were full of themself and ignore them purely on principle.

Man you people are dense. Do y'all really not get the larger point I'm making? The goal is to engage with him. To wrestle with his opinions. You would first establish a rapport, then work to present differing views to him. Sure, my above sounds caustic, but not if you've established a rapport and use a TONE that frames the words in an inviting way. Like two friends playing Truth or Dare. "C'mon, Joey? You're not nervous are ya? You chose dare, so you gotta ring old man Johnson's doorbell!"

Use your common sense people. Geez.
Why are insults your go-to? First you want to insult a suicidal teenager. Now you insult those of us who tell you that your approach is flawed. Please stay away from people suffering with depression.

I'm not insulting you. I'm being snarky. There's a difference. See past my use of snark and hyperbole and look at the larger points I'm making.

And you're mischaracterizing my approach (either deliberately or not, I don't know), so of course I'm gonna push back. You're in effect saying that I'm advocating people be uncompassionate to suicidial people. I'm not. I'm saying once they reach a point of stability, then engage with them. In this kid's case, engage with him in such a way that he'll see past his bias and look at differing views.
No, you're being insulting. Calling people dense is an insult. Implying we aren't using common sense is insulting.

And no, I fully understand your approach. I'm saying it's fundamentally flawed and a horrible way to approach someone who is struggling with depression. That you resort to insults with people here doesn't inspire much confidence that you wouldn't do the same with this kid when he pushes back.

There's been actual good input on this thread, so I don't want it derailed by addressing your propensity to insult those that disagree with your method. It's also not on topic, so this will be my last post. I am hopeful that the OP will listen to the actual constructive advice.

Quote:

No, you're being insulting.

No, I'm not.

Quote:

Calling people dense is an insult. Implying we aren't using common sense is insulting.

It's only insulting if it's not true. And in this case, my statements aren't untrue.

And you're too late. I've just now used my evil approach on several suicidal people and now they're all dead. Now to find more people to terrorize with my theological bullying!! Mwahahahaha!!
PacifistAg
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AG
AstroAg17 said:

I started a thread similar to this one 2 years ago and I think the discussion there was productive. You might find it helpful. The best advice in it is to help him see the positives in life. You don't have to have supernatural beliefs to be happy, and conversion isn't a treatment for depression.

https://texags.com/forums/15/topics/2738381/1#discussion
Thanks for sharing that link. You are right on. Help him see the positives. Make him feel valued. And you are right in your last sentence in that a devout faith in Christ, while helpful IMO, isn't necessarily a treatment for depression. I am testament to that. I still struggle mightily at times, although it's been better lately.
Render
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AG
RetiredAg said:

Render said:

RetiredAg said:

Render said:

dargscisyhp said:

Render said:


(And you wouldn't point blank call him coward. You'd say, "Well, I thought you were smart. I guess you really aren't that sure after all. Maybe you're scared you'll be wrong...")

If someone said this to me I would think they were full of themself and ignore them purely on principle.

Man you people are dense. Do y'all really not get the larger point I'm making? The goal is to engage with him. To wrestle with his opinions. You would first establish a rapport, then work to present differing views to him. Sure, my above sounds caustic, but not if you've established a rapport and use a TONE that frames the words in an inviting way. Like two friends playing Truth or Dare. "C'mon, Joey? You're not nervous are ya? You chose dare, so you gotta ring old man Johnson's doorbell!"

Use your common sense people. Geez.
Why are insults your go-to? First you want to insult a suicidal teenager. Now you insult those of us who tell you that your approach is flawed. Please stay away from people suffering with depression.

I'm not insulting you. I'm being snarky. There's a difference. See past my use of snark and hyperbole and look at the larger points I'm making.

And you're mischaracterizing my approach (either deliberately or not, I don't know), so of course I'm gonna push back. You're in effect saying that I'm advocating people be uncompassionate to suicidial people. I'm not. I'm saying once they reach a point of stability, then engage with them. In this kid's case, engage with him in such a way that he'll see past his bias and look at differing views.
No, you're being insulting. Calling people dense is an insult. Implying we aren't using common sense is insulting.

And no, I fully understand your approach. I'm saying it's fundamentally flawed and a horrible way to approach someone who is struggling with depression. That you resort to insults with people here doesn't inspire much confidence that you wouldn't do the same with this kid when he pushes back.

There's been actual good input on this thread, so I don't want it derailed by addressing your propensity to insult those that disagree with your method. It's also not on topic, so this will be my last post. I am hopeful that the OP will listen to the actual constructive advice.

But in all seriousness, you're being way too dramatic. My first and still preferred recommendation is to get this kid a mental health professional.

The rest was laying out a way to get a kid biased against theology to at least listen to what it has to say.
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Render
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AstroAg17 said:

So if the "challenges to his worldview" are supposed to come after the depression is resolved, your advice on a "how to deal with suicidal thoughts" thread was "deal with his suicidal thoughts, then convert him to Catholicism".

Solid contribution.

I'm not trying to convert him to Catholicism. I'm trying to introduce him to theology, to demonstrate to him that people who believe in God (ie believe in objective meaning) have sound logic to rest that belief on. Knowing that point of view may help calm his existential anxiety. You don't have to be Catholic to agree with Catholic arguments about reality, existence, the structure of the universe, etc.

10/10 insight on your part, would conversate with you again
BusterAg
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I'll just through out there that I like Jordan Peterson's readings on Nietzsche. JP had thousands of hours of YouTube, so search for Jordan Peterson Nietzsche and you are sure to find some helpful things in there.
"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms … disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes… . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.”

--Thomas Jefferson
Star Wars Memes Only
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@buster: 12 rules is a great book.
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