RetiredAg said:

---

dargscisyhp said:

---

If outside, dispassionate observers are taking it so negatively it doesn't seem unreasonable that someone in the kid's frame of mind is going to take it even worse. But even if the kid didn't take it the way we are, even if you had built a rapport and he "got" your tone and all that, do you really expect to chaff someone into considering your philosophical point of view?

---

And if his response to dispassionate observers disagreeing with him is to insult them, what's his next insult going to be when the kid pushes back and rejects his theological bullying?

---

I'll probably chop his hand off. No one back talks me! No one!!!

Quote:

---

Uh-huh. The man's a powerhouse of theology and philosophy. To downplay him like that would be like downplaying Einstein. Check your bias, hombre.

---

He's certainly influencial, but far less than Einstein with quite a few names above him on most the greats lists. He's worth knowing, so is Nietzsche for that matter. But a great many hear is arguments and are unmoved. Even worse for a watered down YouTube version.

Quote:

---

And those "silly proofs" offer a bedrock foundation for observing the world. Again, check your bias, hombre

---

They offer one of many foundations, and most philosophers don't rely on his.

Quote:

---

And the larger point is to get him to consider the logical reasons for why people believe in God. Most people don't know - especially atheists (speaking very generally I know, but whatever) - the logical theological arguments for God

---

I've found the opposite, most atheists are apostates and are more familiar with the arguments for and against.

The broader point is I see little good with the watch my YouTube or you are a coward approach.

BusterAg said:

---

I'll just through out there that I like Jordan Peterson's readings on Nietzsche. JP had thousands of hours of YouTube, so search for Jordan Peterson Nietzsche and you are sure to find some helpful things in there.

---

Agree with this, but also that it is seriously a job for a professional psychiatrist that is trained to help these situations.

As for Peterson, here are some good videos.

Yes, Nietzsche's project was to combat nihilism and to affirm life and self actualization, to love your life. So, it seems this kid has a horrible understanding of Nietzsche. That said, if you're suicidal at 17 then simply correcting their understanding of their favorite philosopher isn't going to be nearly enough to resolve the problem. So I can't imagine a bigger waste of time and effort than telling someone in this serious of a situation that they need to understand a bunch of medieval scholastic church guys (or peterson for that matter...JFC...). If you're trying to convert him -- which you shouldn't be worried about that at all right now IMO -- he'd be much better served by reading Christian existentialists like Kierkegaard or Tillich. But there is not time for that. If you actually want to help this kid the most then priority #1 should be getting him to professional psychiatry and counseling asap, especially if he is resistant to doing so. If he's suicidal, there are urgent, deep-rooted mental and emotional problems that require triage and aren't likely to be improved by anything or anyone on f--king youtube, at least not right away.

Spot on. If he's suicidal, he needs help. Not debates about philosophy. Deal with the 90% of the iceberg under the water line, then you can address the rest later. I doubt that he's depressed or suicidal because of his misunderstanding of Nietzsche. He's probably drawn to Nietzsche because 1) he misunderstands it and 2) the way he understands it reinforces some deeper-seated issues.

Marco Esquandolas said:

---

AstroAg17 said:

---

Why is the philosophy debate bad? In other words, why not debate philosophy and also seek professional help? They don't seem exclusive.

---

Not mutually exclusive, just of vastly different priorities. He's 17, he's not going to figure out the philosophy any time soon. He needs to not kill himself while he works through it.

If I had to guess, like Retired suggested, his philosophical affinities are an effect rather than a cause of his depression.

---

The better question is what advice would you provide to a volunteer counselor that does not have a philosophy background trying to help a kid out who probably can't afford an expensive psychologist that misunderstands Nietzche? Because that would be a relevant answer here, if you read the OP.

Another idea: http://existentialcomics.com/

They are actually funny, and, when combined with Wikipedia, quite educational.

Prayers for this young person.

OOOK, I am a Licensed Counselor. That is fine for many to direct me in the Counseling process without schooling but surprised by some of the responses. Maybe I should have a different name on here Regardless, does anyone have other theorists, philosophers, etc. that counters this type of negative view of the world? Thank you for those that provided this but I was looking for more please.

Oh yeah for my Christian brethren who have responded, I can't put my value on another (I'm a Christian) which would be unethical but even if I did, he would not listen.

Thanks !!

liberalag12 said:

---

OOOK, I am a Licensed Counselor. That is fine for many to direct me in the Counseling process without schooling but surprised by some of the responses. Maybe I should have a different name on here Regardless, does anyone have other theorists, philosophers, etc. that counters this type of negative view of the world? Thank you for those that provided this but I was looking for more please.

Oh yeah for my Christian brethren who have responded, I can't put my value on another (I'm a Christian) which would be unethical but even if I did, he would not listen.

Thanks !!

---

Serious prayers for you as you navigate this mine field. Nietzsche is a very common denominator.

To be honest it sounds like YOU need to spend some time actually understanding his philosophy so that you can relate to this dude. AGAIN, Nietzsche's entire project was about combating nihilism. You need to take him seriously just like any of the other most important thinkers of human history. You need to seriously ignore this groundless categorical dismissal of N by the previous poster who has apparently never bothered to even try to read him or understand him. Again since your friend is already on an existential trip, I think the best thing would be to show him that existentialism can also lead to faith in God. See if he will read Tillich's Courage To Be or some Kierkegaard with you and talk about it. Help him see that the existential crisis need not lead to atheism if you want.

But apart from that I cannot stress enough that the point of existentialism is to find reasons NOT to kill yourself in spite of the apparent absurdity and meaninglessness of life.

Thanks you two..

Another possible way to approach it is to just go to MLK Jr. MLK took Nietzsche seriously because MLK wasn't an incurious intellectual poo-say. You can read in a short section of MLK's autobiography his engagement with N at seminary and the fair reasons he gave for ultimately rejecting him. IMO, MLK's life is potentially a powerful argument against Nietzschean ethics for someone who is in a state of existential despair. Radical agape love and the courage and hope that inhere in it is one possible antidote to that depressive situation.

I guess part of what I'm trying to say is that the best approach here is not necessarily to dump more/different philosophy on this guy. You could spend the rest of your life reading both the smartest critics and exponents of Nietzsche, or work backwards through Hegel, Kant, and so forth and potentially never get out of the emotional hole of despair despite all of the intellectual engagement.

That's why I propose the example of MLK. Of course I could be completely wrong, not knowing much of anything about this dude's inner situation, but to me what is needed is some way to help him acquire some courage to go on and it seems likely that looking at actual examples of people who lived with courage and love despite having to deal with unfathomable levels of adversity, oppression, and unbelievably bleak life situations are infinitely more powerful than trying to get there by reading a bunch of dead philosophers who disagreed with Nietzsche in various ways. Honestly, this dude, like the rest of us, is never going to become Nietzsche's ubermensch. An alternative and far more easily achievable and less elitist reason to continue striving is the good that you can do for other people while you're on the earth, and that applies whether you're religious or not. Maybe that's one way to reach him.

I like how you cherrypicked my post. Must be because you couldn't refute it, so you selected bits and pieces to poke at.

Quote:

---

He's certainly influential ... But a great many hear is arguments and are unmoved.

---

Whether people are "moved" isn't a good unit for measuring the truth of something. Truth isn't a popularity contest. For example, science is the same way; science isn't up for consensus. And by all accounts, the ministry of Jesus was a complete failure - tortured and executed while your followers abandon you. Given his treatment, sounds like Jesus "moved" lots of people, huh?

Quote:

---

He's certainly influencial, but far less than Einstein with quite a few names above him on most the greats lists.

---

I'm not literally saying Einstein and Aquinas had equal impact on their respective fields. I'm saying you disrespecting Aquinas would be like downplaying any great intellectual for petty reasons - it's stupid and reeks of bias. Einstein was simply the first name that came to my mind to demonstrate this point. You people have consistently demonstrated on this thread that y'all can't read between the lines. I guess when someone says "I'm so hungry I could eat a horse" or "He's so smart he's a real Einstein!" you take them literally. I've never before seen such nitpicking on posts - maybe it's because I was advocating theology and you're biased or you're all just stupid, I don't know.

Quote:

---

The broader point is I see little good with the watch my YouTube or you are a coward approach.

---

A lot of you people don't seem to understand how to interact with people. How do you hang out with your friends? Do you read them multiple pages from your tedious boring ass philosophy book, or do you share with them that fun new internet video you found? You show them them the video, because it's immediate, it's fun, and it easily stimulates conversation. Why do y'all think TED talks are so popular?

People advocating the OP open up a dang philosophical book club with the kid must be heartless nerds who have never experienced human emotion.

Quote:

---

But a great many hear is arguments and are unmoved. Even worse for a watered down YouTube version.

---

First off, you literally cannot prove that first sentence. You're just pulling stuff out of your *ss to throw water on my argument. Secondly, the production value of that video is objectively fantastic. Any professional filmmaker would very much approve of it. For you to naysay its quality reeks of bias. And the purpose isn't to broadcast the ENTIRETY of Aquinas' work. It's to INTRODUCE his work in a bite-sized way. Geez you people are ****ing dumb. If you're going to disagree with me, at least take a position of merit, not cheap, petty, bs.

Quote:

---

The broader point is I see little good with the watch my YouTube or you are a coward approach.

---

My first and still preferred recommendation to the OP was psychiatric help. The OP then asked for RECOMMENDATIONS for how to challenge the kid's philosophical worldview. I submitted my two cents, and explained my reasoning in subsequent posts. OBVIOUSLY, you don't discuss such things when someone is ill. It would be AFTER they've healed, which was when the OP would discuss things with him. My point is that he has existential angst. Introducing him to the logic of theology may help calm it. And no, I'm not saying it's the ONLY way to challenge him, but it would be effective, imo.

Quote:

---

They offer one of many foundations, and most philosophers don't rely on his.

---

I'm not asking they rely on it, just that they not shun its existence or arguments. A true free thinker considers all points of view.

Quote:

---

I've found the opposite, most atheists are apostates and are more familiar with the arguments for and against.

---

I'm sure you have.

Since the OP really really wants non-theology works, and since the rest of the recommendations on this thread are ****ing stupid, here we go:

Books:
The Count of Monte Crisco
Chekhov: Stories
Patton's Way: A Radical Theory of War
Gates of Fire by Steven Pressfield
Mornings on Horseback
The Brothers Karamazov
A Confederacy of Dunces
Star Wars: Darth Bane: Path of Destruction
Nova by Samuel R. Delany
Batman The Long Halloween
Batman: Venom
The Grapes of Wrath
Marlfox: A Tale From Redwall
No Country for Old Men
Crime and Punishment
Light in August
The French Revolution and Napoleon by Charles Downer Hazen
1776 by David McCullough
Manga/Anime: Rurouni Kenshin, Black Lagoon

Movies:
Monty Python and the Holy Grail
The Wild Bunch
Spirited Away
Cool Hand Luke
Princess Mononoke
Aliens
A Fistful of Dollars
The Terminator
Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid

TV:
The Twilight Zone: Nothing In The Dark, The Obsolete Man, A Game of Pool, Will the Real Martian Please Stand Up?, Walking Distance

Music:
Bruce Springsteen: Darkness On The Edge of Town, Live in Winterland 1978 concert, The Rising, Nebraska
The Rolling Stones: Sticky Fingers, Exile On Main Street

Russian Bot?

Tyson?

So much unwarranted vitriol.

Interesting choice of Dostoyevsky. He was on my list too.

I was gonna laugh at his list but he obviously takes everything super personal so I'm not even going to engage

No, no, let's laugh at the list.

Except Marlfox which is a great book, as are all of the Redwall books. Beyond reproach.

Quote:

---

Monty Python and the Holy Grail

---

He already said the guy didn't want to hear about anything religious

LOL - the list is funny Render. Nice. Unfortunately anything I say from a religious perspective will push him away further. Maybe I should say this for the 3rd time? Anyways, Thanks

I haven't read all the thread. I've had whole lot of friends in these kinds of positions. You can do two things.

1) as mentioned before, enlist professional help. That's the main thing

2) I know that makes you feel helpless, because that isn't something you are doing. I know you feel scared to talk to him about the gospel message because he will reject it. What you can do, what you must do, is demonstrate the gospel. Dont tell him he is a coward, he is a scared boy. Love him anyway. He needs forgiveness, give it to him. He needs unconditional love give it to him. He needs to feel worthy, show him. Just be there for him and love him as much as you can