dermdoc said:

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Sorry I did not mean it was God's fault, but it sounds like He let it happen. Do you believe most gay people choose to be gay?

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Like ordering a sandwich? No.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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What makes you so sure that they aren't naturally that way? What is your logical reasoning?

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What does it mean to be a "way", "naturally"?

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Meaning their attraction to the same sex was not caused by any environmental factors whatsoever. Of course, it is possible that some could be a result of environmental factors, but what evidence do you use to determine that 100% of gay people are that way because of environmental factors?

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I never said that.

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You insinuate that there is nothing wrong with finding and addressing "root causes" for people being gay. As if there is some validity in "treating the gay away".

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What is wrong with finding and addressing root causes for people being gay?

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What's wrong with finding and addressing root causes for people being....

left handed?
partial to pineapple on their pizza?
fans of country music?
A type personalities?

if you are ok with all of these, the I guess your argument makes sense.

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Of course I am ok with all of those. Why wouldn't I?

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So if a parent has a left handed child and takes them to a specialist to make them right handed and tells their child that they are bad if they are left handed, you have no problem with that?

So how do you interpret God giving them up to their unnatural desires?

Solo Tetherball Champ said:

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Beer Baron said:

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Solo Tetherball Champ said:

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Oh look, another gay thread.

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I for one welcome a rare gay thread that doesn't begin with "CAN YOU BELIEVE HOW GAYS ARE RUINING EVERYTHING?" for once.

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You know as well as I do that no matter where we start we always end up at the same destination....

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Yeah that's why I said I was happy one started in a better place for once before getting right to the bashing parts.

Texaggie7nine said:

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AGC said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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What makes you so sure that they aren't naturally that way? What is your logical reasoning?

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What does it mean to be a "way", "naturally"?

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Meaning their attraction to the same sex was not caused by any environmental factors whatsoever. Of course, it is possible that some could be a result of environmental factors, but what evidence do you use to determine that 100% of gay people are that way because of environmental factors?

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Does it matter? All desires should be second to Christ if one is a Christian, regardless of nature or nurture. The idea of someone having inherently sinful desires isn't challenging to doctrine even if they were born that 'way'.

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So, just a hypothetical for you. What if your belief was wrong and there isn't a god that cares what the sex of the adult you love is and also being gay was something most gay people were by nature and not by nurture. Now, in this hypothetical situation. Do you think it would be fair for these gay people to believe that they were damaged and that their love for each other was an abomination and that they needed to some how find a way to not be the way they are?

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You're assuming there's no secular logic suggesting MF pairings are natural and beneficial for humanity, that they can be interchangeable without some adverse consequence (an idea which lacks support, I might add, even from anthropology and sociology).

Texaggie7nine said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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What makes you so sure that they aren't naturally that way? What is your logical reasoning?

---

What does it mean to be a "way", "naturally"?

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Meaning their attraction to the same sex was not caused by any environmental factors whatsoever. Of course, it is possible that some could be a result of environmental factors, but what evidence do you use to determine that 100% of gay people are that way because of environmental factors?

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I never said that.

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You insinuate that there is nothing wrong with finding and addressing "root causes" for people being gay. As if there is some validity in "treating the gay away".

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What is wrong with finding and addressing root causes for people being gay?

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What's wrong with finding and addressing root causes for people being....

left handed?
partial to pineapple on their pizza?
fans of country music?
A type personalities?

if you are ok with all of these, the I guess your argument makes sense.

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Of course I am ok with all of those. Why wouldn't I?

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So if a parent has a left handed child and takes them to a specialist to make them right handed and tells their child that they are bad if they are left handed, you have no problem with that?

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I misunderstood. I'm ok with someone being left handed, etc. I think homosexual desires are harmful to a person and sinful in the eyes of God.

dermdoc said:

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So how do you interpret God giving them up to their unnatural desires?

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He let them have unnatural desires.

Ps. 81:11 But My people would not listen to Me, and Israel would not obey Me. 12 So I gave them up to their stubborn hearts to follow their own devices.

AGC said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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AGC said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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What makes you so sure that they aren't naturally that way? What is your logical reasoning?

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What does it mean to be a "way", "naturally"?

---

Meaning their attraction to the same sex was not caused by any environmental factors whatsoever. Of course, it is possible that some could be a result of environmental factors, but what evidence do you use to determine that 100% of gay people are that way because of environmental factors?

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Does it matter? All desires should be second to Christ if one is a Christian, regardless of nature or nurture. The idea of someone having inherently sinful desires isn't challenging to doctrine even if they were born that 'way'.

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So, just a hypothetical for you. What if your belief was wrong and there isn't a god that cares what the sex of the adult you love is and also being gay was something most gay people were by nature and not by nurture. Now, in this hypothetical situation. Do you think it would be fair for these gay people to believe that they were damaged and that their love for each other was an abomination and that they needed to some how find a way to not be the way they are?

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You're assuming there's no secular logic suggesting MF pairings are natural and beneficial for humanity, that they can be interchangeable without some adverse consequence (an idea which lacks support, I might add, even from anthropology and sociology).

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Explain to me the adverse anthropological consequences for 10% of the population not reproducing.

Beer Baron said:

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Solo Tetherball Champ said:

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Beer Baron said:

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Solo Tetherball Champ said:

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Oh look, another gay thread.

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I for one welcome a rare gay thread that doesn't begin with "CAN YOU BELIEVE HOW GAYS ARE RUINING EVERYTHING?" for once.

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You know as well as I do that no matter where we start we always end up at the same destination....

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Yeah that's why I said I was happy one started in a better place for once before getting right to the bashing parts.

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So does your belief that god doesn't like it shape how you view the validity of the statement that many gay people are that way naturally and not by some screwed up childhood or psychological issues?

Texaggie7nine said:

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So does your belief that god doesn't like it shape how you view the validity of the statement that many gay people are that way naturally and not by some screwed up childhood or psychological issues?

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Can you reword the question? Too many negatives.

no double negatives there.

Texaggie7nine said:

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no double negatives there.

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well too many words then. But in general, yes belief in God shapes my worldview.

So show me that logical step. How do you get from...

God doesn't like gay sex

to

Gays can't be that way because of nature, but rather something has to have happened environmentally to make them gay.

Texaggie7nine said:

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So show me that logical step. How do you get from...

God doesn't like gay sex

to

Gays can't be that way because of nature, but rather something has to have happened environmentally to make them gay.

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I didn't say that. One doesn't have to be sexually abused or have a fatherless childhood to be gay. Though it's a strong correlation.

Strong like 10%? 25%? 50%? over 50%?

Texaggie7nine said:

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Strong like 10%? 25%? 50%? over 50%?

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I don't know. Maybe we should investigate.

You said the correlation is strong. So I'm guessing you know the figures at least approximately.

only anecdotally.

So you feel safe in making assumptions about the majority of gay people based on a few gay people you personally know?

I also think it makes sense. Sexual abuse as a child will mess you up...sexually. An imbalance in parental affection (no or absent father, overly affectionate mother, etc.) will do the same.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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I also think it makes sense. Sexual abuse as a child will mess you up...sexually. An imbalance in parental affection (no or absent father, overly affectionate mother, etc.) will do the same.

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It also makes sense that if you exhibit homosexual like tendencies growing up, that would negatively affect your relationship with your father in many cases, as the majority of straight men probably don't want to have gay sons. So this could easily be an effect and not a cause of homosexuality.

As for sexual abuse, from most of the numbers I've seen, whereas maybe 5% of heterosexuals suffered sexual abuse as children, around 8% of homosexuals did.

So, it may be a factor for some homosexuals, however evidence tells us that if you meet a homosexual, chances are very much that they were not abused and did not suffer from mistreatment that caused them to be gay.

Texaggie7nine said:

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AGC said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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AGC said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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What makes you so sure that they aren't naturally that way? What is your logical reasoning?

---

What does it mean to be a "way", "naturally"?

---

Meaning their attraction to the same sex was not caused by any environmental factors whatsoever. Of course, it is possible that some could be a result of environmental factors, but what evidence do you use to determine that 100% of gay people are that way because of environmental factors?

---

Does it matter? All desires should be second to Christ if one is a Christian, regardless of nature or nurture. The idea of someone having inherently sinful desires isn't challenging to doctrine even if they were born that 'way'.

---

So, just a hypothetical for you. What if your belief was wrong and there isn't a god that cares what the sex of the adult you love is and also being gay was something most gay people were by nature and not by nurture. Now, in this hypothetical situation. Do you think it would be fair for these gay people to believe that they were damaged and that their love for each other was an abomination and that they needed to some how find a way to not be the way they are?

---

You're assuming there's no secular logic suggesting MF pairings are natural and beneficial for humanity, that they can be interchangeable without some adverse consequence (an idea which lacks support, I might add, even from anthropology and sociology).

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Explain to me the adverse anthropological consequences for 10% of the population not reproducing.

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Women and children typically enjoy lower status and rights in societies that embrace pederasty and gay pairings (from tribes in the Pacific to Rome). Nothing happens in a vacuum. It's perplexing that you think any part of someone's personality can be closeted instead of extending into every area of their life. Having philandering politicians is a bad idea because their wife might not care but it could be blackmail material. Or maybe she does care and they focus on the divorce instead of governance. There's not some nevulous wall between the bedroom or house and public at large.

What argument are you even trying to make? That if homosexuality is accepted as a norm by our society that women and children will lose rights?

Any comparison to past societies will always yield a negative correlation to women and children status and right since only in the modern era have women and children had this level of rights and protections.

Show me tangible evidence from negative affects of today.

And what the hell does being gay have to do with politicians cheating on their wives?

Here's a link to the book. This looks interesting.

https://www.amazon.com/Boy-Erased-Memoir-Identity-Family/dp/0735213461/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1532035613&sr=1-1&keywords=boy+erased&dpID=513TjUpviCL&preST=_SY291_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_&dpSrc=srch

Texaggie7nine said:

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What argument are you even trying to make? That if homosexuality is accepted as a norm by our society that women and children will lose rights?

Any comparison to past societies will always yield a negative correlation to women and children status and right since only in the modern era have women and children had this level of rights and protections.

Show me tangible evidence from negative affects of today.

And what the hell does being gay have to do with politicians cheating on their wives?

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No. I'm stating what all available evidence of actual practice has shown us - in societies where it is practiced, women and children have lower status than men pretty much universally. You seem to dismiss this as them
not having some sort of government that emancipates and protectes women, meaning...well what exactly? Status doesn't always revolve around voting ability or money. No one said they were getting beaten or raped.

If you can't follow the train of logic, that nothing happens in a vacuum and permissive ideas of sexual behavior behind closed doors impacts how people treat each other in public, then I'll just let you continue trolling. It wasn't a huge leap.

I may check out the program or book because I'm curious.

1) What is conversion therapy?
2) Was it forced or voluntary?

I don't see why someone can't voluntarily take part in a "conversion" therapy. I know California is trying to ban it but now it's having trouble because some people legitimately want to have it. If you let people change their genders then why can't you let people change their sexuality?

What sort of convoluted articles are you reading?

The most restrictive societies to homosexuals are also the least protective of women and childrens rights. Look to the middle east. Look to Russia. Look to China.....

Quote:

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1) What is conversion therapy?

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From what I've read it pretty much runs the spectrum from lots of extra praying and church, to way-out-there wacky. There was a big thread on reddit about it where people had stories about how they were asked what about smells that disgusted them - the poster said he listed curry. On his first night they gave him some gay porn and sent him to his room, then started wafting curry under the door. The goal was apparently to cause a negative association to looking at men I think. Lots of talk about how bad it is and how "broken" you are as a person. If you're a grown up and want to sign up for that, have at it, but for a kid who is already struggling with coming out I can't think of a faster ticket to depression/suicide. There are several threads on Reddit where people tell their stories, but for some reason Reddit's not loading for me at all right now.

All that aside, one of the big problems I have with conversion therapy is from the consumer angle - they take peoples' money and don't deliver the result they promise. For every "success story" they trot out with a clearly still gay man and clearly still gay woman who are happily married and have smiles that don't reach their eyes, there are ten other people who are out in the world who are just as gay as ever, only scarred from their experience and out several thousand dollars.

Hel is a Germanic root word, I believe.

Texaggie7nine said:

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What makes you so sure that they aren't naturally that way? What is your logical reasoning?

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Are you assuming that whatever is "natural" is desirable?

Is it wrong for a person born with bad eyesight to get LASIK?

All humans are called to conversion. Jesus gave us the model over and over again. Convert our hearts and putting aside sin follows true conversation.

My desire is to have sex with as many women as possible. That's my "true self." But, rather than giving into my base desires, through grace that's undeserved, I pray for conversion so that I do not become a slave to those desires.

The mass and other sacraments is my "conversion therapy" as it is for billions of sinners.

Here is a Catholic apostolate that recognizes the dignity in all people and specifically seeks to encourage the conversion of homosexual people.

https://couragerc.org/about/

k2aggie07 said:

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Hel is a Germanic root word, I believe.

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Actually hel is Dutch and Holle is Germanic. It is fascinating that a word was created "Hell" and applied to two different Greek words, Sheol and Gehenna, and one Hebrew word, Tartarus.

Sheol to the Jews meant grave, not a place of eternal torment. And Gehenna is a valley, also called the Vale of Hinnom, just outside of Jerusalem which basically was a garbage dump that evidently had been used in the past for child killings to Molech. When Jesus used those terms He was speaking to Jews who would know exactly what that meant.and scholars feel like He was speaking of the second destruction of the Temple which happened in 70 AD I believe.

How a geographical place was translated into a place of eternal torment boggles the mind. Pretty big agenda by the translators of the King James if you ask me.

Frok said:

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Do you believe homosexuality is not a sin?

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I will let Jesus decide that. The exact Greek word Paul created out of two other words was arsenokoites which means man bed. Fascinating how differently that word has been translated by different people.

And I have never understood why homosexuality was "picked out" of the list of sins in 1 Corinthians and emphasized so much. Maybe it is just me, but I do not hear many Christian outrages over drunkenness or adultery.

commando2004 said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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What makes you so sure that they aren't naturally that way? What is your logical reasoning?

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Are you assuming that whatever is "natural" is desirable?

Is it wrong for a person born with bad eyesight to get LASIK?

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I think one of the most obvious clues that being gay isn't a choice is how many gay kids would have given anything to not be gay and to be "normal" when they were growing up, because they felt ashamed, or screwed up. It also makes a pretty good case that you can't be "ungayed" as many gay people I know, including good friends, dated as a straight in high school trying to "force" themselves to be straight so they could have a normal life.