So if Satan exists as you believe he does then he is a supernatural being that has access to us.. God's children. We, in no way, have any inherent knowledge of Satan. Not what he is, not what he can do, nothing. Only some humans are lucky enough to be told about him and told to look out for him.

So, if you believe a loving God allows his children to be tempted, tricked and coerced to not follow or believe in Jesus, then how is that any different than allowing your small child, who is truly ignorant of all the evils that await him in the world, to go alone into a dangerous part of town?

So the kid is walking through the streets of a bad part of town, being approached by very shady people who want to do bad things. But hey, you are watching from out of view, so you always know what is going on. Yet you never step in.

To make it analogous to your view of Jesus: If your child was lucky, his siblings would give him a cell phone and tell him that he can call you any time he needs help and needs protection. So, if he chose to call upon you then you would be there to save him. However, imagine if this is a kid who grew up in a different religion that you believe to be false. The kid has no cell phone and doesn't know he can call on you. Has may have no idea you are watching. He has no idea that the people coming up to him are bad and want to do bad things.

If you watched your child be tricked, corrupted and finally killed by these bad people, that would be no different than a god who would allow something such as Satan to trick, coerce and manipulate his children to not be saved, and forever be doomed after they die.

dds08 said:

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God allows/permits us to be tested by Satan to see if we truly love Him, the Lord.

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Doesn't he already know?

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If you are not faced with challenges in life, how else will you grow?

Challenges expose weaknesses and give you an opportunity to shore them up, harden up and grow in character.

Sometimes the Lord and Satan will make a bet on you, much like what happened to Job.

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If Satan tempts and tricks someone and turns them evil - was that person always weak and evil? If Satan tempts and tricks someone and they reject him - was that person always strong and good? Is it possible for Satan to tempt and trick a good person and turn them evil?

You have described Satan as agent who is actively trying to poke and prod at our weaknesses to trick us over to the dark side. This, to me at least, implies that Satan has the ability to affect the course of our lives and turn good people bad. Or to deceive otherwise good people into taking the wrong path. Given the stakes, for God to allow that to happen seems negligent from my perspective. It seems reasonable, if we assume Christianity to be true, that God would wish for the maximum number of people to be saved. To allow Satan to snatch up otherwise good souls seems at odds with that reasoning.

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So if Satan exists as you believe he does then he is a supernatural being that has access to us.. God's children. We, in no way, have any inherent knowledge of Satan. Not what he is, not what he can do, nothing. Only some humans are lucky enough to be told about him and told to look out for him.

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I don't believe that.

God gave Adam and Eve hints that they would surely die if they ate of the forbidden tree. I'm sure he spoke to them in a way they understood. His communication was perfect. They didn't heed to what he said. They knew what death was. I'm sure he explained to them what it was.

The Lord gave them a hint about Satan when he mentioned "death." Satan wants everybody dead.

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So, if you believe a loving God allows his children to be tempted, tricked and coerced to not follow or believe in Jesus, then how is that any different than allowing your small child, who is truly ignorant of all the evils that await him in the world, to go alone into a dangerous part of town?

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What we are living right now is the after-effects of the first sin. Your hypothetical seems to assume a situation like that was God's original plan for humans.

Free will. You can either choose Jesus and be reconciled with God or refuse him.

Edited to add that is why I am not a Calvinist.

kurt vonnegut said:

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dds08 said:

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God allows/permits us to be tested by Satan to see if we truly love Him, the Lord.

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Doesn't he already know?

Quote:

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If you are not faced with challenges in life, how else will you grow?

Challenges expose weaknesses and give you an opportunity to shore them up, harden up and grow in character.

Sometimes the Lord and Satan will make a bet on you, much like what happened to Job.

---

If Satan tempts and tricks someone and turns them evil - was that person always weak and evil? If Satan tempts and tricks someone and they reject him - was that person always strong and good? Is it possible for Satan to tempt and trick a good person and turn them evil?

You have described Satan as agent who is actively trying to poke and prod at our weaknesses to trick us over to the dark side. This, to me at least, implies that Satan has the ability to affect the course of our lives and turn good people bad. Or to deceive otherwise good people into taking the wrong path. Given the stakes, for God to allow that to happen seems negligent from my perspective. It seems reasonable, if we assume Christianity to be true, that God would wish for the maximum number of people to be saved. To allow Satan to snatch up otherwise good souls seems at odds with that reasoning.

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Doesn't he already know?

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What would be the point of freedom or free will? God isn't gonna force everyone to love him. His creation must choose to follow Him of their own free will.

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Given the stakes, for God to allow that to happen seems negligent from my perspective. It seems reasonable, if we assume Christianity to be true, that God would wish for the maximum number of people to be saved.

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Wouldn't it be better to save the maximum number of people who want to be good?

For those who want to be evil, Satan will save them.

dds08 said:

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Quote:

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So if Satan exists as you believe he does then he is a supernatural being that has access to us.. God's children. We, in no way, have any inherent knowledge of Satan. Not what he is, not what he can do, nothing. Only some humans are lucky enough to be told about him and told to look out for him.

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I don't believe that.

God gave Adam and Eve hints that they would surely die if they ate of the forbidden tree. I'm sure he spoke to them in a way they understood. His communication was perfect. They didn't heed to what he said. They knew what death was. I'm sure he explained to them what it was.

The Lord gave them a hint about Satan when he mentioned "death." Satan wants everybody dead.

Quote:

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So, if you believe a loving God allows his children to be tempted, tricked and coerced to not follow or believe in Jesus, then how is that any different than allowing your small child, who is truly ignorant of all the evils that await him in the world, to go alone into a dangerous part of town?

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What we are living right now is the after-effects of the first sin. Your hypothetical seems to assume a situation like that was God's original plan for humans.

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So in essence you are saying that all the millions and millions of people who are born into non Christian cultures and never truly taught of the dangers of satan, are deserving of being unknowingly tricked by satan into being a nonbeliever because Adam and Eve knowingly disobeyed God???

Ezekial 18

20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.

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What would be the point of freedom or free will? God isn't gonna force everyone to love him. His creation must choose to follow Him of their own free will.

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If I introduce myself to a girl that I want to love me am I forcing her to love me? Should I instead only send my friends to go talk about me and have her never actually meet me?

Texaggie7nine said:

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What would be the point of freedom or free will? God isn't gonna force everyone to love him. His creation must choose to follow Him of their own free will.

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If I introduce myself to a girl that I want to love me am I forcing her to love me? Should I instead only send my friends to go talk about me and have her never actually meet me?

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If I introduce myself to a girl that I want to love me am I forcing her to love me?

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Please don't insult my intelligence. What are you getting at with this?

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Should I instead only send my friends to go talk about me and have her never actually meet me?

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Some cultures around the world have arranged marriages.

dds08 said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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dds08 said:

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God allows/permits us to be tested by Satan to see if we truly love Him, the Lord.

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Doesn't he already know?

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What would be the point of freedom or free will? God isn't gonna force everyone to love him. His creation must choose to follow Him of their own free will.

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Are you saying that if God already knows how all of our lives will play out, that this is a challenge to the existence of free will? If so, I 100% agree. The Christian version of an all knowing and Creator God is incompatible with free will. I'm surprised we agree on this.

dds08 said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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If I introduce myself to a girl that I want to love me am I forcing her to love me?

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Please don't insult my intelligence. What are you getting at with this?

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The point is that additional and correct information does not hamper our free will. Additional information helps us use our free will to make informed decisions.

Texaggie7nine said:

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dds08 said:

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Quote:

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So if Satan exists as you believe he does then he is a supernatural being that has access to us.. God's children. We, in no way, have any inherent knowledge of Satan. Not what he is, not what he can do, nothing. Only some humans are lucky enough to be told about him and told to look out for him.

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I don't believe that.

God gave Adam and Eve hints that they would surely die if they ate of the forbidden tree. I'm sure he spoke to them in a way they understood. His communication was perfect. They didn't heed to what he said. They knew what death was. I'm sure he explained to them what it was.

The Lord gave them a hint about Satan when he mentioned "death." Satan wants everybody dead.

Quote:

---

So, if you believe a loving God allows his children to be tempted, tricked and coerced to not follow or believe in Jesus, then how is that any different than allowing your small child, who is truly ignorant of all the evils that await him in the world, to go alone into a dangerous part of town?

---

What we are living right now is the after-effects of the first sin. Your hypothetical seems to assume a situation like that was God's original plan for humans.

---

So in essence you are saying that all the millions and millions of people who are born into non Christian cultures and never truly taught of the dangers of satan, are deserving of being unknowingly tricked by satan into being a nonbeliever because Adam and Eve knowingly disobeyed God???

Ezekial 18

20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.

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Quote:

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So in essence you are saying that all the millions and millions of people who are born into non Christian cultures and never truly taught of the dangers of satan, are deserving of being unknowingly tricked by satan into being a nonbeliever because Adam and Eve knowingly disobeyed God???

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I don't know much about the final judgment, but those who have yet to hear of God by then will be given an opportunity to accept or reject him. It's hard to imagine someone not hearing about him though. The majority of humans should have a sense of good and evil. The Lord's creation is evidence too. Look at how much harmony there is in the environment before humans get a hold of it. During Columbus time, America was known to be the "New World," but that was an understatement. LIfe flourished over here abundantly.

I digress.

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Ezekial 18

20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.

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Okay, the guilt may not be shared nor the all the consequences, but all humans receive the label "sinner" until they accept God. I don't like this either, but it is what it is. This was a tough pill to swallow.

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Please don't insult my intelligence. What are you getting at with this?

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God doesn't have to hide from humans in order for them to have free will. He can fully reveal himself to everyone and they can still choose whether to love him or not.

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Some cultures around the world have arranged marriages.

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So you are in favor of restricting free will is it?

kurt vonnegut said:

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dds08 said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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dds08 said:

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God allows/permits us to be tested by Satan to see if we truly love Him, the Lord.

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Doesn't he already know?

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What would be the point of freedom or free will? God isn't gonna force everyone to love him. His creation must choose to follow Him of their own free will.

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Are you saying that if God already knows how all of our lives will play out, that this is a challenge to the existence of free will? If so, I 100% agree. The Christian version of an all knowing and Creator God is incompatible with free will. I'm surprised we agree on this.

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God doesn't know how all our lives will play out.

When you create something and give it free will, you don't know what it will choose to do. That's for the creation to decide.

Texaggie7nine said:

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Quote:

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Please don't insult my intelligence. What are you getting at with this?

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God doesn't have to hide from humans in order for them to have free will. He can fully reveal himself to everyone and they can still choose whether to love him or not.

Quote:

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Some cultures around the world have arranged marriages.

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So you are in favor of restricting free will is it?

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Quote:

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God doesn't have to hide from humans in order for them to have free will. He can fully reveal himself to everyone and they can still choose whether to love him or not.

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Of course, young children do right when their parents are standing over them. (2-year-olds being an exception)


On a different note, God is omnipresent. How exactly is He hiding? At the same time, He's not that overbearing God who stands over you 24/7. He can if you want him to be. He has a clever way about Him that allows Him to be omnipresent yet make Himself seem far away enough, you can have a sense of privacy.

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Of course, young children do right when their parents are standing over them.

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So. God wants us to know if we love him by seeing if we obey him, YET the majority of the world isn't even taught his commandments. I guess it makes it up to them to figure out what God wants by searching all the world's religions and figuring out which one is correct, THEN follow that version of God and THEN god knows that they love him...

Do you determine if your children truly love you or not based on if they obey you?

Texaggie7nine said:

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I don't know much about the final judgement, but those who have yet to hear of God by then will be given an opportunity to accept or reject him.

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You have proof of this scripturally?

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It's hard to imagine someone not hearing about him though. The majority of humans should have a sense of good and evil. The Lord's creation is evidence too. Look at how much harmony there is in the environment before humans get a hold of it. During Columbus time, America was known to be the "New World," but that was an understatement. LIfe flourished over here abundantly.

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So a devout Hindu living in India should see, through how much harmony there is in nature, that Jesus is their true savior?

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Okay, the guilt may not be shared nor the all the consequences, but all humans receive the label "sinner" until they accept God. I don't like this either, but it is what it is. This was a tough pill to swallow.

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Tough because you never can allow yourself to think outside of the box of doctrine as to whether the very premise is true at all to begin with?

It gets to a point where you realize you are trying to solve all these tough equations and when you have 1 number available to answer with, you will never really know the answers. Imagine, trying to solve for why 2 + 2 = X if you do not allow yourself to ever consider that X cannot be anything but 6. As soon as you take that step and say "you know what. X can be anything." It all starts making sense.

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You have proof of this scripturally?

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I'm not the best person to ask. Revelation is "one of those books." If it is there.

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So a devout Hindu living in India should see, through how much harmony there is in nature, that Jesus is their true savior?

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I don't know much about Hindus, but they should see that there is someone or something greater than them to the very least. Someone thought and designed our environment into existence.

I have a suspicion you sell the Hindu's short. Hindu's know what good and evil are. They know what power is and what intelligence is. It wouldn't be a stretch to conclude that there is a "higher power" out there.

If you don't like the name Jesus, why not call Him the Supreme, Sovereign Ruler of all creation or the Great I AM Who I Am.

Yall are killing me with the names and labels.

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Tough because you never can allow yourself to think outside of the box of doctrine as to whether the very premise is true at all to begin with?

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Go ask a parent this. Parents pass around the phrase "terrible twos" for a reason. Kids don't need to be taught how to be evil.

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They should see that there is someone or something greater than them to the very least. Someone thought and designed our environment into existence.

I have a suspicion you sell the Hindu's short. Hindu's know what good and evil are. They know what power is and what intelligence is. It wouldn't be a stretch to conclude that there is a "higher power" out there.

If you don't like the name Jesus, why not call Him the Supreme, Sovereign Ruler of all creation or the Great I AM Who I Am.

Yall are killing me with the names and labels.

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So you are more universalist as far as who is saved, so long as they claim a higher power?

Texaggie7nine said:

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Quote:

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Of course, young children do right when their parents are standing over them.

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So. God wants us to know if we love him by seeing if we obey him, YET the majority of the world isn't even taught his commandments. I guess it makes it up to them to figure out what God wants by searching all the world's religions and figuring out which one is correct, THEN follow that version of God and THEN god knows that they love him...

Do you determine if your children truly love you or not based on if they obey you?

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~sigh~ The level of oversimplification in your post.

I seriously can't even

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YET the majority of the world isn't even taught his commandments. I guess it makes it up to them to figure out what God wants by searching all the world's religions and figuring out which one is correct, THEN follow that version of God and THEN god knows that they love him...

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You're putting God in a box. You're conforming Him and his modus operandi to your intelligence and worldview.

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Do you determine if your children truly love you or not based on if they obey you?

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I don't have any. I wouldn't know.

I think the more accurate answer would be that the Bible puts God in a box.

Texaggie7nine said:

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Quote:

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They should see that there is someone or something greater than them to the very least. Someone thought and designed our environment into existence.

I have a suspicion you sell the Hindu's short. Hindu's know what good and evil are. They know what power is and what intelligence is. It wouldn't be a stretch to conclude that there is a "higher power" out there.

If you don't like the name Jesus, why not call Him the Supreme, Sovereign Ruler of all creation or the Great I AM Who I Am.

Yall are killing me with the names and labels.

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So you are more universalist as far as who is saved, so long as they claim a higher power?

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Claim Him and truly choose to follow Him, admitting they are a sinner and need a savior.

The Lord is the Supreme Sovereign Ruler of all creation. That includes the universe. He wants to be accessible to all humans, those who want Him.

I'm not a universalist in so much that I believe everyone is going to heaven. Only those who want to be there will be there. Some want to be in Hell. Who's to say they should not in regards to free-will.

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Some want to be in Hell

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So, this is obviously the Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis position that comes up often here. Now, do you believe, from what you read in the Bible, that the people that choose hell and "want" to be there will be happier than if they were in heaven?

Texaggie7nine said:

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I think the more accurate answer would be that the Bible puts God in a box.

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At the end of Job's test, after he had suffered all that damage for so long; he had a talk with the Lord.

In all that Job experienced, the Lord talked about who provides food for the lions to eat, or who looks after all life in the sea, etc.

The world doesn't revolve around Job. Yet if there is a being out there who takes care of lions and whales in the sea and everything else down to the tiniest atom, then Job has nothing to worry about; in good or bad times.

So, just be a good person, and don't worry about believing in jesus or not, and by being good, know that god will make sure everything will be alright?

Texaggie7nine said:

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Quote:

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Some want to be in Hell

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So, this is obviously the Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis position that comes up often here. Now, do you believe, from what you read in the Bible, that the people that choose hell and "want" to be there will be happier than if they were in heaven?

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I have yet to read that book.

So you don't believe there are people out there who love evil despite their knowledge of good?

Texaggie7nine said:

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So, just be a good person, and don't worry about believing in jesus or not, and by being good, know that god will make sure everything will be alright?

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Sorry, that's just my interpretation.

You seem to think the Lord's reach is as far as the nearest scripture.

I believe there are damaged people who think they find joy in doing things we would call evil. I do not believe that a healthy minded individual, brought up in this world by loving parents who taught them proper empathy, would find joy in those evil things because our very nature and cultural environment prohibit it.

When it comes down to it, no human really was ever fully in control of what drives them and makes them happy or motivates them. Physiological mixed with environmental are the key factors.


PS. I think you would really like The Great Divorce.

dds08 said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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So, just be a good person, and don't worry about believing in jesus or not, and by being good, know that god will make sure everything will be alright?

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Sorry, that's just my interpretation.

You seem to think the Lord's reach is as far as the nearest scripture.

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How do you find that interpretation through the Bible though? Do you just assume it because you believe God is loving and merciful and regardless of scriptures to the contrary, you believe that good people of other religions have some kind of path to God because that only makes sense for a loving god?

Texaggie7nine said:

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I believe there are damaged people who think they find joy in doing things we would call evil. I do not believe that a healthy minded individual, brought up in this world by loving parents who taught them proper empathy, would find joy in those evil things because our very nature and cultural environment prohibit it.

When it comes down to it, no human really was ever fully in control of what drives them and makes them happy or motivates them. Physiological mixed with environmental are the key factors.


PS. I think you would really like The Great Divorce.

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I believe there are damaged people who think they find joy in doing things we would call evil. I do not believe that a healthy minded individual, brought up in this world by loving parents who taught them proper empathy, would find joy in those evil things because our very nature and cultural environment prohibit it.

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Don't be so naive. Stalin had a well-known reputation for torturing people. I suspect his warped sense of empathy drove him to do those things because he loved watching people suffer.

Stalin: I've come up with a new way to put someone's eye out! I wanna see how they respond!

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When it comes down to it, no human really was ever fully in control of what drives them and makes them happy or motivates them. Physiological mixed with environmental are the key factors.

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You're selling freedom and free will short.

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Don't be so naive. Stalin had a well-known reputation for torturing people. I suspect his warped sense of empathy drove him to do those things because he loved watching people suffer.

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Are you fully knowledgeable on his upbringing? Every environmental factor up until he got into power? Do you think he was afforded everything insofar as a moral upbringing that a typical kid in suburbia America?

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You're selling freedom and free will short.

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I'm recognizing reality. If you see conclusive evidence to the contrary, please, let us have it.

Texaggie7nine said:

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dds08 said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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So, just be a good person, and don't worry about believing in jesus or not, and by being good, know that god will make sure everything will be alright?

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Sorry, that's just my interpretation.

You seem to think the Lord's reach is as far as the nearest scripture.

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How do you find that interpretation through the Bible though? Do you just assume it because you believe God is loving and merciful and regardless of scriptures to the contrary, you believe that good people of other religions have some kind of path to God because that only makes sense for a loving god?

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How do you find that interpretation through the Bible though?

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I didn't find it. The Holy Spirit speaks to his followers. My interpretation could be entirely different than another follower's interpretation.

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you believe that good people of other religions have some kind of path to God because that only makes sense for a loving god?

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Yes, that is one way to put it.

God:general(universal) as religion:specific

Case in point:

Galatians 5 talks about the Fruit of the Spirit. From what I can tell (again, this is my interpretation), any action that is done that is contrary to genuine, true love is a sin. The fruit of the Spirit is love so, if you do anything contrary to The Spirit, or anything contrary to love, it's practically sin. Any action that one chooses to do that is contrary to Philos love to a neighbor is a sin. Any action one chooses that is not for the best of oneself is a sin. The human body is said to be the temple of the Spirit. We must do things that promote health and wellness of the mind, soul, and physical body.

So if shown scripture that contradicts these beliefs you feel you have gained through the Holy Spirit, do you choose to go with scripture over what you feel, or do you feel that the bible is just a man made, God influenced book that can have errors?

Texaggie7nine said:

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So if shown scripture that contradicts these beliefs you feel you have gained through the Holy Spirit, do you choose to go with scripture over what you feel, or do you feel that the bible is just a man made, God influenced book that can have errors?

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Is this a serious question or are you pulling my leg?

What scripture says, what I feel, and what I believe the Holy Spirit is trying to communicate to me through scripture are 3 different things.

I could always be wrong about what I perceive the Spirit is trying to tell me.

That's why as believers we are always warned about the interpretation of other human beings. We are all encouraged to read the scripture for ourselves and take other people's interpretation with a grain of salt; a heavy dose of scrutiny.

That's nice. But I'm trying to get an answer to the question. If you were to read scripture that directly contradicts what you believe you were told by the Holy Spirit, which do you believe? Is the scripture the ultimate decider of what you believe to be true? In other words, do you believe the Bible, as we know it, to be the 100% infallible word of God?

Texaggie7nine said:

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That's nice. But I'm trying to get an answer to the question. If you were to read scripture that directly contradicts what you believe you were told by the Holy Spirit, which do you believe? Is the scripture the ultimate decider of what you believe to be true? In other words, do you believe the Bible, as we know it, to be the 100% infallible word of God?

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John 1:1 New International Version (NIV)

The Word Became Flesh

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

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nuff said.