Those who don't believe

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dds08
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1:12p, 7/15/18
AG
As a believer in Christ, the question occurred to me:

If I were to put myself in the shoes of someone who doesn't believe in Christ, or the Lord at all, how could one, someone who doesn't believe, expect the Lord to win them over?


I'm sure the Lord intervenes in people's lives through his followers. He puts his followers in certain places to share the Gospel. He influences others through his followers.

His scripture, The Word is there. Churches are there. Although, a lot of this is assuming an environment in the US. In some parts of the world, I cannot imagine what goes on, but I have faith that us mere humans cannot stop Him from reaching others. He, himself, is there via prayer for all humans. We can point to His creation and his greatness as hints and clues.


On a more personal level, I suspect the Lord challenges and tests nonbelievers as well. I believe he piques their curiosity. He gives them hints and clues about certain things. He doesn't just come out and appear to them and say "I am God" (he leaves room for faith, excluding Christ's appearance) He leaves it entirely up to them to accept or reject Him.

There are those who have yet to hear his name, and then there are those who have heard and not accepted him yet. As far as those who worship other god's and/or idols, I have faith he can reach them as well.
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AggieRain
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4:50p, 7/15/18
AG
I struggle with Christianity. I would love to be a whole and complete Christian. I pray for it, but I remain full of doubt. Lurking this board is both helpful and unhelpful. I appreciate he conviction of Christians on this board but am often discouraged by the infighting. As a deist I am a full believer in a creator, but as a Christian, I am a lousy at fully committing. Maybe there is hope for me down the road...
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kurt vonnegut
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In reply to dds08 • 5:28p, 7/15/18
AG
dds08 said:
If I were to put myself in the shoes of someone who doesn't believe in Christ, or the Lord at all, how could one, someone who doesn't believe, expect the Lord to win them over?


In addition to putting yourself in someone else's shoes, consider the possibility that you are worshipping the wrong God. What would it take for you to be won over by another faith?
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Aggie4Life02
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6:09p, 7/15/18
AG
Quote:
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:44 NASB
https://bible.com/bible/100/jhn.6.44.NASB
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Amazing Moves
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6:35p, 7/15/18
Why does an all powerful deity need lowly humans to believe in him?
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AggieRain
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In reply to Aggie4Life02 • 6:45p, 7/15/18
AG
Aggie4Life02 said:
Quote:
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:44 NASB
https://bible.com/bible/100/jhn.6.44.NASB


Calvinists
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dds08
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In reply to kurt vonnegut • 7:09p, 7/15/18
AG
kurt vonnegut said:
dds08 said:
If I were to put myself in the shoes of someone who doesn't believe in Christ, or the Lord at all, how could one, someone who doesn't believe, expect the Lord to win them over?


In addition to putting yourself in someone else's shoes, consider the possibility that you are worshipping the wrong God. What would it take for you to be won over by another faith?

Good question.

I don't like talking about myself personally because it's not about me, but since you asked I will do my best to answer.

Honestly, I have often pondered on this.

I ask myself, "If I were born in the Middle East or India, or China, what god would I be serving today? Would I serve a God at all?"

I cannot be certain of what or whom I would be worshipping. I hope it would be Christ.

But that is just the thing. We have a name/label for God, but I believe He makes Himself known and manifests himself in ways that we know and don't know. We get caught up in labels and names and things that we miss the forest for the trees. We can make the statement, "All Muslims are doomed to Hell" but I do not believe that to necessarily to be true.

According to Scripture:
Quote:
Romans 10:8-13 New International Version (NIV)

8 But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, "Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame."12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentilethe same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Notice it doesn't say, all the Muslims, Taoists, Hindu's that call on him will NOT be saved.


Not to mention the guy who Christ told would be with Him in paradise. The word doesn't say whether he uttered those above words in scripture. IMHO, I believe that guy got in on "mustard seed" faith. "if you are who you say you are, remember me" This leads me to wonder if there are more ways to get in that we may be aware of.

I believe it will be a deeper judgment. God can see the human heart. He can see past religion, facades and peer into the human heart. He can see past dishonest utterances of words. (meaning, if you dishonestly utter the words in the above scripture, the Lord will know and you will not get in)

Another thing a religion would have to do, to win me over, is overcome the power I see in "loving one's neighbor as oneself", honesty, and love. I truly believe God manifests himself in those things. If those other religions are teaching those things as well, then there's a chance we are all on the same page on some (perhaps not all) levels, but the important ones. The Holy Spirit is the Knower of ALL truth. The fruit of the Holy Spirit is Love.
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dds08
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7:34p, 7/15/18
AG
I don't know a whole lot about other religions, but I doubt any of them say in their doctrine to serve evil or any manifestation of it.

I would hope wherever in the world I was, I would be incredibly skeptical of anything (religion, group, sect) that encouraged loving money (do whatever it takes to get it without regard for anyone or anything, at all costs)

or

anything that encouraged pride (vanity/hubris):

Quote:
Pride is an inwardly directed emotion that carries two antithetical meanings. With a negative connotation pride refers to a foolishly and irrationally corrupt sense of one's personal value, status or accomplishments, used synonymously with hubris. With a positive connotation, pride refers to a humble and content sense of attachment toward one's own or another's choices and actions, or toward a whole group of people, and is a product of praise, independent self-reflection, and a fulfilled feeling of belonging. (Wikipedia)

If anyone on this planet cannot see evil for what it is, or a problem with evil....

I doubt anyone on this planet is that shallow.
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dds08
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In reply to Amazing Moves • 7:50p, 7/15/18
AG
Amazing Moves said:
Why does an all powerful deity need lowly humans to believe in him?
God doesn't need anyone or anything.

I'm sure you knew that already.
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Aggie4Life02
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In reply to AggieRain • 10:47p, 7/15/18
AG
AggieRain said:
Aggie4Life02 said:
Quote:
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:44 NASB
https://bible.com/bible/100/jhn.6.44.NASB


Calvinists


...I notice that you gave me the thumbs down for nothing more than quoting Scripture. Ironic.
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Frok
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In reply to kurt vonnegut • 8:48a, 7/16/18
AG
kurt vonnegut said:
dds08 said:
If I were to put myself in the shoes of someone who doesn't believe in Christ, or the Lord at all, how could one, someone who doesn't believe, expect the Lord to win them over?


In addition to putting yourself in someone else's shoes, consider the possibility that you are worshipping the wrong God. What would it take for you to be won over by another faith?


You would have to convince me the scriptures of that religion are more trustworthy than the bible.
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Texaggie7nine
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In reply to dds08 • 9:10a, 7/16/18
I will say that the biggest change once you start truly questioning your faith is that once you stop trying to solve for X while always assuming that Y = "my religion is 100% true" when trying to figure out all the questions of life you realize that your assumption of Y is actually quite unlikely, and X can start making a lot more sense.

Sure, it can seem a bit more scary when you stop pretending to know the value of Y, but it is intellectually freeing to give up on bad numbers and it makes the world that much more fascinating.

7nine
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AggieRain
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In reply to Aggie4Life02 • 9:14a, 7/16/18
AG
Aggie4Life02 said:
AggieRain said:
Aggie4Life02 said:
Quote:
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:44 NASB
https://bible.com/bible/100/jhn.6.44.NASB


Calvinists


...I notice that you gave me the thumbs down for nothing more than quoting Scripture. Ironic.
I'm glad to see that you were able to discern that I was giving your use of the verse a thumbs down and not the verse itself. Truth is there are a bunch of folks that struggle with the tenets of Christianity in one form or another. Providing a verse that is essentially a victory lap for the concept of the elect does nothing to address this. Ironic that you don't see that.
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dds08
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10:45a, 7/16/18
AG
On the inside looking out, if I were an unbeliever, I would need to be on the lookout for Satan's encouragement (temptations) to follow him too.

"You're not a sinner, therefore you don't need Jesus nor his sacrifice"

"You've never made an error or hated anyone or used anyone (regardless of whether your action(s) was for their good, for their best.)"

"it's okay to use people if you can get away with it or have a certain amount of power, intelligence, or influence (personal qualities)."

"Get all the money you can get"

"You don't need to be kind, nor exercise self-control, if it feels good, it's right!"

"You're the best thing on God's green earth!" "Look at how you look or look at how much money, power, fortune, fame, intelligence you've amassed!"

"Go for the quick and easy, expedient and convenient!" All we can count on is the right here and right now! The short-term. The long-term doesn't exist!"

"You're doing it wrong if you're not ambitious and arrogant."
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kurt vonnegut
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In reply to dds08 • 10:55a, 7/16/18
AG
dds08 said:

I ask myself, "If I were born in the Middle East or India, or China, what god would I be serving today? Would I serve a God at all?"

I cannot be certain of what or whom I would be worshipping. I hope it would be Christ.

But that is just the thing. We have a name/label for God, but I believe He makes Himself known and manifests himself in ways that we know and don't know. We get caught up in labels and names and things that we miss the forest for the trees.

I believe it will be a deeper judgment. God can see the human heart. He can see past religion, facades and peer into the human heart.

Another thing a religion would have to do, to win me over, is overcome the power I see in "loving one's neighbor as oneself", honesty, and love. I truly believe God manifests himself in those things. If those other religions are teaching those things as well, then there's a chance we are all on the same page on some (perhaps not all) levels, but the important ones. The Holy Spirit is the Knower of ALL truth. The fruit of the Holy Spirit is Love.
[edited your post to the parts I wish to respond to]

There is obviously a strong correlation between religious beliefs and our environment / where we are born. I'm glad that you do not think all [insert other religion] people automatically go to hell.

What will this deeper judgement look like? Is it a judgment that corrects for all external factors that affect what humans believe while on this Earth?

If our judgement is to be a judgement on our heats and souls, then what is the purpose or advantage to accepting Jesus in this life? As long as we adhere to some version of a morality which promotes 'Love thy neighbor, honesty, and love, then we are basically all on equal footing, no?
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kurt vonnegut
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In reply to dds08 • 11:02a, 7/16/18
AG
dds08 said:
On the inside looking out, if I were an unbeliever, I would need to be on the lookout for Satan's encouragement (temptations) to follow him too.

"You're not a sinner, therefore you don't need Jesus nor his sacrifice"

"You've never made an error or hated anyone or used anyone (regardless of whether your action(s) was for their good, for their best.)"

"it's okay to use people if you can get away with it or have a certain amount of power, intelligence, or influence (personal qualities)."

"Get all the money you can get"

"You don't need to be kind, nor exercise self-control, if it feels good, it's right!"

"You're the best thing on God's green earth!" "Look at how you look or look at how much money, power, fortune, fame, intelligence you've amassed!"

So. . . . basically, don't be a dick. If you were an unbeliever, you would not believe in Satan or that there is a supernatural force for evil encouraging you to do these things.

There are good reasons to not be a narcissistic, egomanical, manipulative, greedy, self-indulgent, A-hole. If 'Because God says so' works for you, then great! But this board has been over this argument a million times. Just because someone does not believe, does not mean they are morally bankrupt.
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kurt vonnegut
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In reply to Frok • 11:05a, 7/16/18
AG
Frok said:

You would have to convince me the scriptures of that religion are more trustworthy than the bible.

In what way? Deciding what is 'trustworthy' feels like it could be open to being fairly subjective.

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dds08
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In reply to kurt vonnegut • 11:15a, 7/16/18
AG
kurt vonnegut said:
dds08 said:
On the inside looking out, if I were an unbeliever, I would need to be on the lookout for Satan's encouragement (temptations) to follow him too.

"You're not a sinner, therefore you don't need Jesus nor his sacrifice"

"You've never made an error or hated anyone or used anyone (regardless of whether your action(s) was for their good, for their best.)"

"it's okay to use people if you can get away with it or have a certain amount of power, intelligence, or influence (personal qualities)."

"Get all the money you can get"

"You don't need to be kind, nor exercise self-control, if it feels good, it's right!"

"You're the best thing on God's green earth!" "Look at how you look or look at how much money, power, fortune, fame, intelligence you've amassed!"

So. . . . basically, don't be a dick. If you were an unbeliever, you would not believe in Satan or that there is a supernatural force for evil encouraging you to do these things.

There are good reasons to not be a narcissistic, egomanical, manipulative, greedy, self-indulgent, A-hole. If 'Because God says so' works for you, then great! But this board has been over this argument a million times. Just because someone does not believe, does not mean they are morally bankrupt.
What about the human flesh?

The human flesh will encourage you to yield to evil. It doesn't take Satan's encouragement to do evil.
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dds08
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11:45a, 7/16/18
AG
Quote:
Not to mention the guy who Christ told would be with Him in paradise. The word doesn't say whether he uttered those above words in scripture. IMHO, I believe that guy got in on "mustard seed" faith. "if you are who you say you are, remember me" This leads me to wonder if there are more ways to get in that we may be aware of.

For unbelievers, mustard seed faith would perhaps be a good place to start.


"If there is an all-powerful/all-knowing being out there, please remember me."

"If there is an all loving being out there, please remember me."

"If there is a supreme, sovereign leader (of some kind/sort) out there, please remember me."


All those have no ties to any religion at all. They barely have any tie to God at all, but it's just enough to chance the possibility, to the very least.
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kurt vonnegut
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In reply to dds08 • 11:48a, 7/16/18
AG
dds08 said:

What about the human flesh?

The human flesh will encourage you to yield to evil. It doesn't take Satan's encouragement to do evil.

I think we should be careful when assigning moral value to evolved biological impulses. The society we live in today is very different from the environment in which we evolved.

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dds08
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In reply to kurt vonnegut • 12:06p, 7/16/18
AG
What about the person who contracts AIDS from raping someone? I'm sure by now it's happened at least once.

How about all those people who contracted "gold fever", during the gold rush, went up the mountains and resorted to cannibalism all because they were too impatient to hang out in Southern California 3-4 months so the winter could pass?

Germany was so set on conquering Russia, they let the cold get them too. Power hungry leaders.
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Frok
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In reply to kurt vonnegut • 12:36p, 7/16/18
AG
kurt vonnegut said:
Frok said:

You would have to convince me the scriptures of that religion are more trustworthy than the bible.

In what way? Deciding what is 'trustworthy' feels like it could be open to being fairly subjective.



No doubt personal bias is a strong influence on anything political or religious. We always have to guard ourselves against that.

I'll expand my answer. I believe the bible to be true and I believe the bible we have now is almost identical to the original manuscripts. I believe it is historical sound and has stood the test of time to be considered a reliable historical document.

If a muslim wants to convince me to follow Islam the burden will be for him to convince me the truthfulness of the Koran and conversely convince me the bible is not reliable. No doubt it would be much harder to convince me to follow Islam compared to what it took to convince me of the truth of Christianity simply because of where I live.
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dds08
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12:36p, 7/16/18
AG
Quote:
But that is just the thing. We have a name/label for God, but I believe He makes Himself known and manifests himself in ways that we know and don't know. We get caught up in labels and names and things that we miss the forest for the trees. We can make the statement, "All Muslims are doomed to Hell" but I do not believe that to necessarily to be true.

I have a hunch this is one reason why The Lord told Moses:

Quote:
Exodus 3:13-14 New International Version (NIV)

13 Moses said to God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?"
14 God said to Moses, "I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I am has sent me to you.'"

Names and labels....

they only go so far and they have limits.

What's in a name of a particular being than who the being is or what that particular being is about?
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kurt vonnegut
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In reply to dds08 • 1:27p, 7/16/18
AG
dds08 said:
What about the person who contracts AIDS from raping someone? I'm sure by now it's happened at least once.

How about all those people who contracted "gold fever", during the gold rush, went up the mountains and resorted to cannibalism all because they were too impatient to hang out in Southern California 3-4 months so the winter could pass?

Germany was so set on conquering Russia, they let the cold get them too. Power hungry leaders.

What about those people. Maybe my brain is fried - but I don't see your point.
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kurt vonnegut
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In reply to Frok • 1:43p, 7/16/18
AG
Frok said:

No doubt personal bias is a strong influence on anything political or religious. We always have to guard ourselves against that.

I'll expand my answer. I believe the bible to be true and I believe the bible we have now is almost identical to the original manuscripts. I believe it is historical sound and has stood the test of time to be considered a reliable historical document.
Not trying to be obtuse, but historically sound in what sense? The Bible obviously talks about certain historical events and places and cities and characters who are real. I have heard some Christians talk about miracles as though they are historically proven as well. 'Proof' that a miracle occurred is obviously a more difficult thing than proving that the city of Jerusalem existed 2000 years ago.


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Frok
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In reply to kurt vonnegut • 3:04p, 7/16/18
AG
I wouldn't say "historically proven". That is simply not possible. What we would aim for is "beyond a reasonable doubt".

From what I've read the bible is generally regarded as a historically reliable document. If the locations, timelines, and eye-witness accounts are considered reliable then we can trust what those eye-witnesses said. In regards to miracles I think the best approach is to analyze the accounts of the resurrection since that is the key event in Christianity. If the resurrection can be reasonably plausible then the other miracles are plausible as well.

Obviously I'm glossing over ALL the details just to state my view here. Not trying to convince you of the historicity of the bible in one sentence. Just stating my general line of thinking.


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Amazing Moves
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In reply to dds08 • 3:47p, 7/16/18
dds08 said:
Amazing Moves said:
Why does an all powerful deity need lowly humans to believe in him?
God doesn't need anyone or anything.

I'm sure you knew that already.
No. Why is it prerequisite if God doesn't need it?
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Aggrad08
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In reply to Frok • 3:51p, 7/16/18
AG
So if I find a historical falsehood in the bible should I then strongly question the miracles if they miss on basic facts and history?
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Frok
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In reply to Aggrad08 • 4:58p, 7/16/18
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Aggrad08 said:
So if I find a historical falsehood in the bible should I then strongly question the miracles if they miss on basic facts and history?


This sounds like a setup.

Depends on what the falsehood is.
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kurt vonnegut
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In reply to Frok • 5:09p, 7/16/18
AG
Frok said:
I wouldn't say "historically proven". That is simply not possible. What we would aim for is "beyond a reasonable doubt".

From what I've read the bible is generally regarded as a historically reliable document. If the locations, timelines, and eye-witness accounts are considered reliable then we can trust what those eye-witnesses said. In regards to miracles I think the best approach is to analyze the accounts of the resurrection since that is the key event in Christianity. If the resurrection can be reasonably plausible then the other miracles are plausible as well.

Obviously I'm glossing over ALL the details just to state my view here. Not trying to convince you of the historicity of the bible in one sentence. Just stating my general line of thinking.

Sure, I get that this is an abridged version of the argument. I think that the biggest problem that with the history argument is the 'extraordinary claim / extraordinary evidence' issue. Its just too easy to question the reliability of any of those eye witness accounts. Just as you probably find it all too easy to dismiss claims of miracles performed by other gods and Gods. And of course, the historical accuracy of the Bible and the truthfulness of the supernatural claims that it makes are entirely different questions.

---------------------------

dds wanted to know what would win over a non-believer. To quote his original post:

Quote:
He doesn't just come out and appear to them and say "I am God" (he leaves room for faith, excluding Christ's appearance) He leaves it entirely up to them to accept or reject Him.
To answer dds' question - I think that this is what would have to change for me to change. I just do not think it is reasonable to ask people to accept something this enormously and crucially extraordinary on faith. Giving human beings absolute 'proof' (whatever that means) of His existence does not take away our free will. I fail to see how it would cheapen our relationship to God for Him to give proof rather than ask that we believe without evidence. I'd love for God to pop in and say hello as dds suggests. It would be new information and a new experience that would inform and change my outlook and my beliefs.

Blessed are those who believe without seeing?. . . . . sorry, I gotta see. Maybe that makes me weak or foolish in some way.
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Frok
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5:18p, 7/16/18
AG
Quote:
Sure, I get that this is an abridged version of the argument. I think that the biggest problem that with the history argument is the 'extraordinary claim / extraordinary evidence' issue. Its just too easy to question the reliability of any of those eye witness accounts. Just as you probably find it all too easy to dismiss claims of miracles performed by other gods and Gods. And of course, the historical accuracy of the Bible and the truthfulness of the supernatural claims that it makes are entirely different questions.


I think eyewitness accounts are probably the best you can hope for from that time. But you do bring up a point that I should explore further. Why are the biblical eyewitness accounts more reliable than the Quran's or other religious documents. I have some surface answers that I've heard over the years but I'll be honest and say I haven't looked too deeply at them.
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dermdoc
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In reply to kurt vonnegut • 5:29p, 7/16/18
AG
kurt vonnegut said:
Frok said:
I wouldn't say "historically proven". That is simply not possible. What we would aim for is "beyond a reasonable doubt".

From what I've read the bible is generally regarded as a historically reliable document. If the locations, timelines, and eye-witness accounts are considered reliable then we can trust what those eye-witnesses said. In regards to miracles I think the best approach is to analyze the accounts of the resurrection since that is the key event in Christianity. If the resurrection can be reasonably plausible then the other miracles are plausible as well.

Obviously I'm glossing over ALL the details just to state my view here. Not trying to convince you of the historicity of the bible in one sentence. Just stating my general line of thinking.

Sure, I get that this is an abridged version of the argument. I think that the biggest problem that with the history argument is the 'extraordinary claim / extraordinary evidence' issue. Its just too easy to question the reliability of any of those eye witness accounts. Just as you probably find it all too easy to dismiss claims of miracles performed by other gods and Gods. And of course, the historical accuracy of the Bible and the truthfulness of the supernatural claims that it makes are entirely different questions.

---------------------------

dds wanted to know what would win over a non-believer. To quote his original post:

Quote:
He doesn't just come out and appear to them and say "I am God" (he leaves room for faith, excluding Christ's appearance) He leaves it entirely up to them to accept or reject Him.
To answer dds' question - I think that this is what would have to change for me to change. I just do not think it is reasonable to ask people to accept something this enormously and crucially extraordinary on faith. Giving human beings absolute 'proof' (whatever that means) of His existence does not take away our free will. I fail to see how it would cheapen our relationship to God for Him to give proof rather than ask that we believe without evidence. I'd love for God to pop in and say hello as dds suggests. It would be new information and a new experience that would inform and change my outlook and my beliefs.

Blessed are those who believe without seeing?. . . . . sorry, I gotta see. Maybe that makes me weak or foolish in some way.
Thomas had to put his hand in the wound in Jesus's side. It is okay to doubt God as a lot of Bible characters did. He will save and change you.
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Aggrad08
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In reply to Frok • 5:33p, 7/16/18
AG
A historical event is purported that did not happen for instance. Or an open contradiction, or a gross omission between stories, or a false prophecy. Things like that.

And the idea that the gospels are eyewitness accounts is largely abandoned by NT experts (only two are even offered as such). And have at best second and third hand accounts.
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In reply to Amazing Moves • 6:51p, 7/16/18
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Amazing Moves said:
Why does an all powerful deity need lowly humans to believe in him?


He doesn't. But we are better off when we do.
"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms … disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes… . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.”

--Thomas Jefferson
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In reply to kurt vonnegut • 6:55p, 7/16/18
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kurt vonnegut said:
dds08 said:
If I were to put myself in the shoes of someone who doesn't believe in Christ, or the Lord at all, how could one, someone who doesn't believe, expect the Lord to win them over?


In addition to putting yourself in someone else's shoes, consider the possibility that you are worshipping the wrong God. What would it take for you to be won over by another faith?


After careful consideration, this is not a zero set for me. P value is very, very low, however.

It would take an unsurmountable logical argument, I think, which seems impossible for religion, or some direct miraculous revelation.

I looked into most of them. Not impressed. Love still wins.
"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms … disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes… . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.”

--Thomas Jefferson
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