dermdoc said:

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Body dysmorphia.

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On what basis do you make this claim? Why is this a better explanation for the phenomenon than the one I proposed above?

dermdoc said:

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AstroAg17 said:

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That's not even close to the only difference.

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Okay, explain it to me.

Edited to add that you are born thinking you are something you are not. What is the difference between thinking you are a man when you are a woman or if you think you are a cat and you are a woman? Both are pretty classic dysmorphic psychiatric disorders. One is politically sensitive and one is not. What am I missing?

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This is an interesting question. Every once in a while you'll hear about feral children, who display the behaviors of their adopted nonhuman families. Do they suffer from a mental disorder, or have they simply been malsocialized?

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Two thoughts:
First, the idea that your body is wrong and requires surgical correction is a mental disorder.

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If that's the case, then those who undergo rhinoplasty, mammoplasty, tummy tucks, botox, circumcisions and so on all suffer from a mental disorder. Why is transgenderism treated so differently than the rest?

I already discussed those kinds of things a few posts back.

dargscisyhp said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Two thoughts:
First, the idea that your body is wrong and requires surgical correction is a mental disorder.

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If that's the case, then those who undergo rhinoplasty, mammoplasty, tummy tucks, botox, circumcisions and so on all suffer from a mental disorder. Why is transgenderism treated so differently than the rest?

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Comorbidity: the rate of occurrence of anxiety, depression, bipolar, and other mental disorders that occur at a very disproportionate rate in TGs relative to the general population. Suicidal ideation which again doesn't go down significantly after transitioning, and which remains high even in the most accepting countries.

That's not comparable to anything that you've listed. Further, some of those are actually neutral at worst to beneficial at best (circumcision) but you have to ignore scientific evidence to lump it in there. We had this discussion last page.

Mental Illness - gender is biological and not a social construct!

AGC said:

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dargscisyhp said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Two thoughts:
First, the idea that your body is wrong and requires surgical correction is a mental disorder.

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If that's the case, then those who undergo rhinoplasty, mammoplasty, tummy tucks, botox, circumcisions and so on all suffer from a mental disorder. Why is transgenderism treated so differently than the rest?

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Comorbidity: the rate of occurrence of anxiety, depression, bipolar, and other mental disorders that occur at a very disproportionate rate in TGs relative to the general population. Suicidal ideation which again doesn't go down significantly after transitioning, and which remains high even in the most accepting countries.

That's not comparable to anything that you've listed. Further, some of those are actually neutral at worst to beneficial at best (circumcision) but you have to ignore scientific evidence to lump it in there. We had this discussion last page.

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Many believe that all would be well with TG's if everyone was just nicer to them.

drevans956 said:

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Mental Illness - gender is biological and not a social construct!

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Gender is the social expression of sexual difference. It absolutely is a social construct.

AGC said:

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dargscisyhp said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Two thoughts:
First, the idea that your body is wrong and requires surgical correction is a mental disorder.

---

If that's the case, then those who undergo rhinoplasty, mammoplasty, tummy tucks, botox, circumcisions and so on all suffer from a mental disorder. Why is transgenderism treated so differently than the rest?

---

Comorbidity: the rate of occurrence of anxiety, depression, bipolar, and other mental disorders that occur at a very disproportionate rate in TGs relative to the general population. Suicidal ideation which again doesn't go down significantly after transitioning, and which remains high even in the most accepting countries.

That's not comparable to anything that you've listed. Further, some of those are actually neutral at worst to beneficial at best (circumcision) but you have to ignore scientific evidence to lump it in there. We had this discussion last page.

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This is based on one flawed reading of one flawed study. The fact is trans people are treated terribly by society and by their families. The urge to fit in and be "normal" also drives a lot of the issues.

Wycliffe_03 said:

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AGC said:

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dargscisyhp said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Two thoughts:
First, the idea that your body is wrong and requires surgical correction is a mental disorder.

---

If that's the case, then those who undergo rhinoplasty, mammoplasty, tummy tucks, botox, circumcisions and so on all suffer from a mental disorder. Why is transgenderism treated so differently than the rest?

---

Comorbidity: the rate of occurrence of anxiety, depression, bipolar, and other mental disorders that occur at a very disproportionate rate in TGs relative to the general population. Suicidal ideation which again doesn't go down significantly after transitioning, and which remains high even in the most accepting countries.

That's not comparable to anything that you've listed. Further, some of those are actually neutral at worst to beneficial at best (circumcision) but you have to ignore scientific evidence to lump it in there. We had this discussion last page.

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Many believe that all would be well with TG's if everyone was just nicer to them.

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Those people are naive. TGs are fighting gravity. They take hormones for life, medicinal doses for the opposite sex, and will have health risks associated with the opposite sex (think things that cluster highly based on sex, like Alzheimer's, etc.). They're better off learning to accept their bodies and deal with what is causing the underlying issues. There's an ag on this board that is TG and said they have two cousins that are as well. Statistically that's highly unlikely but the shared background could mean something else...

Even in the most progressive and accepting societies they haven't eliminated those factors. The main problem is that most think the dysmorphia is the disorder that causes the rest, but there's no scientific evidence that actually supports that. It's often caused by trauma or other sources. As I mentioned earlier, most MtF TGs are either gay or autogynephilic. Most people grow out of the dysmorphia over time and get comfortable in their bodies. Gender clinics don't do any sort of counseling to see if there's an underlying cause, so much as speed people through the transition process.

Imagine treating someone who's anorexic like they know what they're talking about. It's enabling, not solving the underlying problem.

Dr. Watson said:

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AGC said:

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dargscisyhp said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Two thoughts:
First, the idea that your body is wrong and requires surgical correction is a mental disorder.

---

If that's the case, then those who undergo rhinoplasty, mammoplasty, tummy tucks, botox, circumcisions and so on all suffer from a mental disorder. Why is transgenderism treated so differently than the rest?

---

Comorbidity: the rate of occurrence of anxiety, depression, bipolar, and other mental disorders that occur at a very disproportionate rate in TGs relative to the general population. Suicidal ideation which again doesn't go down significantly after transitioning, and which remains high even in the most accepting countries.

That's not comparable to anything that you've listed. Further, some of those are actually neutral at worst to beneficial at best (circumcision) but you have to ignore scientific evidence to lump it in there. We had this discussion last page.

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This is based on one flawed reading of one flawed study. The fact is trans people are treated terribly by society and by their families. The urge to fit in and be "normal" also drives a lot of the issues.

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So what is the correct reading of Cecilia Dhejne et. al's "Long-term follows-up of transsexual persons undergoing sex reassignment surgery: cohort study in Sweden"?

The lead author herself has said people like you are misrepresenting her work. She points to meta-analysis like this https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1365-2265.2009.03625.x that show gender dysphoria is reduced with transitioning. The study itself has this important caveat: "It is therefore important to note that the current study is only informative with respect to transsexual persons health after sex reassignment; no inferences can be drawn as to the effectiveness of sex reassignment as a treatment for transsexualism. In other words, the results should not be interpreted such as sex reassignment per se increases morbidity and mortality. Things might have been even worse without sex reassignment. As an analogy, similar studies have found increased somatic morbidity, suicide rate, and overall mortality for patients treated for bipolar disorder and schizophrenia. This is important information, but it does not follow that mood stabilizing treatment or antipsychotic treatment is the culprit."

In an interview, the lead author stated, "Medical transition alone won't resolve the effects of crushing social oppression: social anxiety, depression and posttraumatic stress.

What we've found is that treatment models which ignore the effect of cultural oppression and outright hate aren't enough. We need to understand that our treatment models must be responsive to not only gender dysphoria, but the effects of anti-trans hate as well."

AGC said:

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Wycliffe_03 said:

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AGC said:

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dargscisyhp said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Two thoughts:
First, the idea that your body is wrong and requires surgical correction is a mental disorder.

---

If that's the case, then those who undergo rhinoplasty, mammoplasty, tummy tucks, botox, circumcisions and so on all suffer from a mental disorder. Why is transgenderism treated so differently than the rest?

---

Comorbidity: the rate of occurrence of anxiety, depression, bipolar, and other mental disorders that occur at a very disproportionate rate in TGs relative to the general population. Suicidal ideation which again doesn't go down significantly after transitioning, and which remains high even in the most accepting countries.

That's not comparable to anything that you've listed. Further, some of those are actually neutral at worst to beneficial at best (circumcision) but you have to ignore scientific evidence to lump it in there. We had this discussion last page.

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Many believe that all would be well with TG's if everyone was just nicer to them.

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Those people are naive. TGs are fighting gravity. They take hormones for life, medicinal doses for the opposite sex, and will have health risks associated with the opposite sex (think things that cluster highly based on sex, like Alzheimer's, etc.). They're better off learning to accept their bodies and deal with what is causing the underlying issues.There's an ag on this board that is TG and said they have two cousins that are as well. Statistically that's highly unlikely but the shared background could mean something else...

Even in the most progressive and accepting societies they haven't eliminated those factors. The main problem is that most think the dysmorphia is the disorder that causes the rest, but there's no scientific evidence that actually supports that. It's often caused by trauma or other sources. As I mentioned earlier, most MtF TGs are either gay or autogynephilic. Most people grow out of the dysmorphia over time and get comfortable in their bodies. Gender clinics don't do any sort of counseling to see if there's an underlying cause, so much as speed people through the transition process.

Imagine treating someone who's anorexic like they know what they're talking about. It's enabling, not solving the underlying problem.

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You must have some research conducted by good scientists to back up these statements?

Dr. Watson said:

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The lead author herself has said people like you are misrepresenting her work. She points to meta-analysis like this https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1365-2265.2009.03625.x that show gender dysphoria is reduced with transitioning. The study itself has this important caveat: "It is therefore important to note that the current study is only informative with respect to transsexual persons health after sex reassignment; no inferences can be drawn as to the effectiveness of sex reassignment as a treatment for transsexualism. In other words, the results should not be interpreted such as sex reassignment per se increases morbidity and mortality. Things might have been even worse without sex reassignment. As an analogy, similar studies have found increased somatic morbidity, suicide rate, and overall mortality for patients treated for bipolar disorder and schizophrenia. This is important information, but it does not follow that mood stabilizing treatment or antipsychotic treatment is the culprit."

In an interview, the lead author stated, "Medical transition alone won't resolve the effects of crushing social oppression: social anxiety, depression and posttraumatic stress.

What we've found is that treatment models which ignore the effect of cultural oppression and outright hate aren't enough. We need to understand that our treatment models must be responsive to not only gender dysphoria, but the effects of anti-trans hate as well."

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So you ginned up a straw man and took it down? I didn't say it increased morbidity and mortality, simply that both are significantly higher in the TG population even after transitioning (which is not in dispute).

Further, you and she are drawing your own unsupported conclusions that social acceptance is what causes these things. TGs will be forced to confront this every day as their bodies are arranged for sexual reproduction in a different manner than they think of themselves.

You also rely on shoddy articles and conclusions. I pointed out the flaws in brain studies back on page one but you seem to have missed that.

Dr. Watson said:

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AGC said:

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Wycliffe_03 said:

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AGC said:

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dargscisyhp said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Two thoughts:
First, the idea that your body is wrong and requires surgical correction is a mental disorder.

---

If that's the case, then those who undergo rhinoplasty, mammoplasty, tummy tucks, botox, circumcisions and so on all suffer from a mental disorder. Why is transgenderism treated so differently than the rest?

---

Comorbidity: the rate of occurrence of anxiety, depression, bipolar, and other mental disorders that occur at a very disproportionate rate in TGs relative to the general population. Suicidal ideation which again doesn't go down significantly after transitioning, and which remains high even in the most accepting countries.

That's not comparable to anything that you've listed. Further, some of those are actually neutral at worst to beneficial at best (circumcision) but you have to ignore scientific evidence to lump it in there. We had this discussion last page.

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Many believe that all would be well with TG's if everyone was just nicer to them.

---

Those people are naive. TGs are fighting gravity. They take hormones for life, medicinal doses for the opposite sex, and will have health risks associated with the opposite sex (think things that cluster highly based on sex, like Alzheimer's, etc.). They're better off learning to accept their bodies and deal with what is causing the underlying issues.There's an ag on this board that is TG and said they have two cousins that are as well. Statistically that's highly unlikely but the shared background could mean something else...

Even in the most progressive and accepting societies they haven't eliminated those factors. The main problem is that most think the dysmorphia is the disorder that causes the rest, but there's no scientific evidence that actually supports that. It's often caused by trauma or other sources. As I mentioned earlier, most MtF TGs are either gay or autogynephilic. Most people grow out of the dysmorphia over time and get comfortable in their bodies. Gender clinics don't do any sort of counseling to see if there's an underlying cause, so much as speed people through the transition process.

Imagine treating someone who's anorexic like they know what they're talking about. It's enabling, not solving the underlying problem.

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You must have some research conducted by good scientists to back up these statements?

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Ah yes, trot out the potential ad-hominem before someone says a name you don't like (hence the use of 'good' scientists). That 80-95% of kids who express dysmorphia eventually desist isn't even contested by the TG community. Deny it at your own peril. It naturally follows that growing comfortable in their own body is in their best interest. Or do you think lifelong dependency on hormones is natural and to be encouraged?

Why are you asking me to disprove the null hypothesis? I said there aren't studies that prove dysmorphia causes the other disorders and there aren't. Since you're making the claim, please provide your own studies by 'good' scientists.

Bailey and Triea argue that MtF is gay or autogynephilic.