schmendeler said:

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is it mental illness if you think the supreme being in the universe wants you to cut off part of your genitals? and you do it?

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Sounds like a question for the Muslims of the board.

AGC said:

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schmendeler said:

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is it mental illness if you think the supreme being in the universe wants you to cut off part of your genitals? and you do it?

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Sounds like a question for the Muslims of the board.

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i'd include them in the population that the question fits.

Quote:

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is it mental illness if you think the supreme being in the universe wants you to cut off part of your genitals? and you do it?

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Or tattoos, or piercings, or scarring, or fasting, or any number of other neutral or beneficial body modifications

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Quote:

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is it mental illness if you think the supreme being in the universe wants you to cut off part of your genitals? and you do it?

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Or tattoos, or piercings, or scarring, or fasting, or any number of other neutral or beneficial body modifications

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Who is determining what is neutral or beneficial?

schmendeler said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Quote:

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is it mental illness if you think the supreme being in the universe wants you to cut off part of your genitals? and you do it?

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Or tattoos, or piercings, or scarring, or fasting, or any number of other neutral or beneficial body modifications

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Who is determining what is neutral or beneficial?

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And couldn't you argue that, in some cases, hormone therapy or other related treatments can be "beneficial"? I know my friend has said the depression has gone away for the most part, and as a result, her marriage is stronger than ever and she's more engaged with her children. She's not even living fulltime or planning to, but is certainly in a better place. And her relationship with Christ is stronger because she isn't consumed with the self-loathing that comes from depression.

schmendeler said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Quote:

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is it mental illness if you think the supreme being in the universe wants you to cut off part of your genitals? and you do it?

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Or tattoos, or piercings, or scarring, or fasting, or any number of other neutral or beneficial body modifications

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Who is determining what is neutral or beneficial?

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What a beautiful example of postmodernism. Not even science matters anymore. Why should anyone besides schmendeler determine whether it is neutral or beneficial?

AGC said:

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schmendeler said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Quote:

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is it mental illness if you think the supreme being in the universe wants you to cut off part of your genitals? and you do it?

---

Or tattoos, or piercings, or scarring, or fasting, or any number of other neutral or beneficial body modifications

---

Who is determining what is neutral or beneficial?

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What a beautiful example of postmodernism. Not even science matters anymore. Why should anyone besides schmendeler determine whether it is neutral or beneficial?

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Asking him to establish the grounds for his "neutral or beneficial" claim is post modernism?

From the guy that skipped right over the Jewish and American Christian propensity for genital modification to get a poke in at Muslims?

No, you really can't because they address symptoms rather than the underlying problem. Your friend can't teach their children about the role of Christ and the church because it doesn't exist in their marriage now, among other things. When Christ quotes Genesis when discussing marriage their kids will wonder why.

If a schizophrenic had two personalities that wanted to get married, would it be resolved by letting the person marry themself?

I have no doubt a drug addict is happier with enablers.

schmendeler said:

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AGC said:

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schmendeler said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Quote:

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is it mental illness if you think the supreme being in the universe wants you to cut off part of your genitals? and you do it?

---

Or tattoos, or piercings, or scarring, or fasting, or any number of other neutral or beneficial body modifications

---

Who is determining what is neutral or beneficial?

---

What a beautiful example of postmodernism. Not even science matters anymore. Why should anyone besides schmendeler determine whether it is neutral or beneficial?

---

Asking him to establish the grounds for his "neutral or beneficial" claim is post modernism?

From the guy that skipped right over the Jewish and American Christian propensity for genital modification to get a poke in at Muslims?

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You asked 'who' determines it, a very different question. Why does the 'who' matter unless you've already denied purpose and rational explanation on your own grounds (which exist and are undoubtedly no secret to a knowledgeable individual such as yourself)? You are your own authority. I thought your semi-serious inquiry was justly answer by like.

You're not engaging with the truth or idea behind circumcision, you're gearing up for an ad hominem (otherwise the who isn't relevant). The whole point of asking 'who' is to attack the 'who', not engage the truth or purpose.

Quote:

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How much empathy? What should be done with them? Drug them? Institutionalize then? Force them to act differently?

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I'm guessing you don't have a problem with children being dosed with GnRH despite potentially serious adverse events?

Quote:

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Who is determining what is neutral or beneficial?

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What does it mean to determine? How do you define "who"-ness and personhood? What is the definition of "is" or being in general? We can go down all sorts of philosophical rabbit holes if you want, but none of them seem particularly valid to the current conversation.

You tried to equate circumcision with gender reassignment surgery. In purely physical terms, circumcision is at worst neutral at it involves no loss of function, but it also has the benefit of providing some protection against UTI, penile cancer, and STDs. Compare that to female "circumcision" which involves only a loss of function with no physical benefit or amputation of a healthy limb which involves the same. Tattoos, piercings, and scarring provide neither benefit nor protect from harm, and they do not involve loss of function.

That's only purely physical terms though. If you want to try to justify bodily harm for psychological or social/cultural benefit, then the same argument could be used for healthy limb amputation and female circumcision. Healthy limb amputation may provide some psychological relief for mentally ill people, and the entire justification of female circumcision is social/cultural.

i didn't equate cirucmcision with gender reasssignment surgery.

this is a thread asking if transgenderism is a mental disorder.

i thought it was relevant to point out to those who would say it is, that a large percentage of the earth's population doesn't spare a second thought to the idea that it's perfectly acceptable to alter your genitals if your particular deity tells you that you should.

and that sounds crazier to me than identifying with a gender different than your sex.

schmendeler said:

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i didn't equate cirucmcision with gender reasssignment surgery.

this is a thread asking is transgenderism is a mental disorder.

i thought it was relevant to point out to those who would say it is, that a large percentage of the earth's population doesn't spare a second thought to the idea that it's perfectly acceptable to alter your genitals if your particular deity tells you that you should.

and that sounds crazier to me than identifying with a gender different than your sex.

---

Considering depression, anxiety, and bipolar disorder aren't highly correlated with circumcision like they are with TGs, it's not really an apt comparison. In fact, one must ignore the medical benefits and comorbidity cited above to treat them as such, which implies either ignorance (not knowing) or malice (and not caring). Conflating the two is willful blindness.

AGC said:

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schmendeler said:

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i didn't equate cirucmcision with gender reasssignment surgery.

this is a thread asking is transgenderism is a mental disorder.

i thought it was relevant to point out to those who would say it is, that a large percentage of the earth's population doesn't spare a second thought to the idea that it's perfectly acceptable to alter your genitals if your particular deity tells you that you should.

and that sounds crazier to me than identifying with a gender different than your sex.

---

Considering depression, anxiety, and bipolar disorder aren't highly correlated with circumcision like they are with TGs, it's not really an apt comparison. In fact, one must ignore the medical benefits and comorbidity cited above to treat them as such, which implies either ignorance (not knowing) or malice (and not caring). Conflating the two is willful blindness.

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you are repeatedly ignoring the distinction i have made more than once. doing so at the bidding of "god" is crazy to me.

Quote:

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i thought it was relevant to point out to those who would say it is, that a large percentage of the earth's population doesn't spare a second thought to the idea that it's perfectly acceptable to alter your genitals if your particular deity tells you that you should.

and that sounds crazier to me than identifying with a gender different than your sex.

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And it is pretty easy for me to disagree considering that involves only a minor cosmetic change as opposed to an extensive surgical procedure that's only been feasible for the last 30 years or so.

And I don't think "identifying with a gender different than your sex" is the correct terminology. These people identify with a different sex than their sex. If gender is entirely social and unrelated to biology, then no surgery is necessary to change genders. Just start behaving as your preferred gender regardless of biology. There are plenty of places in America and the Western world in general where that is perfectly acceptable

schmendeler said:

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AGC said:

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schmendeler said:

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i didn't equate cirucmcision with gender reasssignment surgery.

this is a thread asking is transgenderism is a mental disorder.

i thought it was relevant to point out to those who would say it is, that a large percentage of the earth's population doesn't spare a second thought to the idea that it's perfectly acceptable to alter your genitals if your particular deity tells you that you should.

and that sounds crazier to me than identifying with a gender different than your sex.

---

Considering depression, anxiety, and bipolar disorder aren't highly correlated with circumcision like they are with TGs, it's not really an apt comparison. In fact, one must ignore the medical benefits and comorbidity cited above to treat them as such, which implies either ignorance (not knowing) or malice (and not caring). Conflating the two is willful blindness.

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you are repeatedly ignoring the distinction i have made more than once. doing so at the bidding of "god" is crazy to me.

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Circumcision was common place in BC and not done exclusively by Israel. People do it today for no religious reason at all.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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schmendeler said:

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AGC said:

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schmendeler said:

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i didn't equate cirucmcision with gender reasssignment surgery.

this is a thread asking is transgenderism is a mental disorder.

i thought it was relevant to point out to those who would say it is, that a large percentage of the earth's population doesn't spare a second thought to the idea that it's perfectly acceptable to alter your genitals if your particular deity tells you that you should.

and that sounds crazier to me than identifying with a gender different than your sex.

---

Considering depression, anxiety, and bipolar disorder aren't highly correlated with circumcision like they are with TGs, it's not really an apt comparison. In fact, one must ignore the medical benefits and comorbidity cited above to treat them as such, which implies either ignorance (not knowing) or malice (and not caring). Conflating the two is willful blindness.

---

you are repeatedly ignoring the distinction i have made more than once. doing so at the bidding of "god" is crazy to me.

---

Circumcision was common place in BC and not done exclusively by Israel. People do it today for no religious reason at all.

---

ok?

schmendeler said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

---

schmendeler said:

---

AGC said:

---

schmendeler said:

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i didn't equate cirucmcision with gender reasssignment surgery.

this is a thread asking is transgenderism is a mental disorder.

i thought it was relevant to point out to those who would say it is, that a large percentage of the earth's population doesn't spare a second thought to the idea that it's perfectly acceptable to alter your genitals if your particular deity tells you that you should.

and that sounds crazier to me than identifying with a gender different than your sex.

---

Considering depression, anxiety, and bipolar disorder aren't highly correlated with circumcision like they are with TGs, it's not really an apt comparison. In fact, one must ignore the medical benefits and comorbidity cited above to treat them as such, which implies either ignorance (not knowing) or malice (and not caring). Conflating the two is willful blindness.

---

you are repeatedly ignoring the distinction i have made more than once. doing so at the bidding of "god" is crazy to me.

---

Circumcision was common place in BC and not done exclusively by Israel. People do it today for no religious reason at all.

---

ok?

---

You'll be shocked to hear people put water on others' heads, eat bread and drink wine at the bidding of their particular deity.

schmendeler said:

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AGC said:

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schmendeler said:

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i didn't equate cirucmcision with gender reasssignment surgery.

this is a thread asking is transgenderism is a mental disorder.

i thought it was relevant to point out to those who would say it is, that a large percentage of the earth's population doesn't spare a second thought to the idea that it's perfectly acceptable to alter your genitals if your particular deity tells you that you should.

and that sounds crazier to me than identifying with a gender different than your sex.

---

Considering depression, anxiety, and bipolar disorder aren't highly correlated with circumcision like they are with TGs, it's not really an apt comparison. In fact, one must ignore the medical benefits and comorbidity cited above to treat them as such, which implies either ignorance (not knowing) or malice (and not caring). Conflating the two is willful blindness.

---

you are repeatedly ignoring the distinction i have made more than once. doing so at the bidding of "god" is crazy to me.

---

So are we still saying this isn't about postmodernism and people determining their own truth? There is objective evidence that this is a beneficial procedure practiced widely and also observed for non-religious reasons. The Christian stipulation would be that God created and ordered the world and therefore his commands have natural practical purpose (which we have discovered and know for scientific fact in this case). In order for you, personally, to make this distinction you have to ignore comorbidity (other mental disorders with a high correlation to TGs) to compare the two. FGM is a much better example of what you're positing, but it's problematic because you don't get to call Christians crazy while allowing medical professionals to pump five year olds full of puberty blockers and other hormones.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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schmendeler said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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schmendeler said:

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AGC said:

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schmendeler said:

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i didn't equate cirucmcision with gender reasssignment surgery.

this is a thread asking is transgenderism is a mental disorder.

i thought it was relevant to point out to those who would say it is, that a large percentage of the earth's population doesn't spare a second thought to the idea that it's perfectly acceptable to alter your genitals if your particular deity tells you that you should.

and that sounds crazier to me than identifying with a gender different than your sex.

---

Considering depression, anxiety, and bipolar disorder aren't highly correlated with circumcision like they are with TGs, it's not really an apt comparison. In fact, one must ignore the medical benefits and comorbidity cited above to treat them as such, which implies either ignorance (not knowing) or malice (and not caring). Conflating the two is willful blindness.

---

you are repeatedly ignoring the distinction i have made more than once. doing so at the bidding of "god" is crazy to me.

---

Circumcision was common place in BC and not done exclusively by Israel. People do it today for no religious reason at all.

---

ok?

---

You'll be shocked to hear people put water on others' heads, eat bread and drink wine at the bidding of their particular deity.

---

body modification is a bit different than the other things you have listed, no?

AGC said:

---

schmendeler said:

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AGC said:

---

schmendeler said:

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i didn't equate cirucmcision with gender reasssignment surgery.

this is a thread asking is transgenderism is a mental disorder.

i thought it was relevant to point out to those who would say it is, that a large percentage of the earth's population doesn't spare a second thought to the idea that it's perfectly acceptable to alter your genitals if your particular deity tells you that you should.

and that sounds crazier to me than identifying with a gender different than your sex.

---

Considering depression, anxiety, and bipolar disorder aren't highly correlated with circumcision like they are with TGs, it's not really an apt comparison. In fact, one must ignore the medical benefits and comorbidity cited above to treat them as such, which implies either ignorance (not knowing) or malice (and not caring). Conflating the two is willful blindness.

---

you are repeatedly ignoring the distinction i have made more than once. doing so at the bidding of "god" is crazy to me.

---

So are we still saying this isn't about postmodernism and people determining their own truth? There is objective evidence that this is a beneficial procedure practiced widely and also observed for non-religious reasons. The Christian stipulation would be that God created and ordered the world and therefore his commands have natural practical purpose (which we have discovered and know for scientific fact in this case). In order for you, personally, to make this distinction you have to ignore comorbidity (other mental disorders with a high correlation to TGs) to compare the two. FGM is a much better example of what you're positing, but it's problematic because you don't get to call Christians crazy while allowing medical professionals to pump five year olds full of puberty blockers and other hormones.

---

i thought this was a forum to share opinions on the topics being discussed? are you saying that personal judgements aren't allowed?

as for female circumcision, it is disgusting. i find male circumcision less distasteful but still wrong.

doing either because god told you to is crazy.

schmendeler said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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schmendeler said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

---

schmendeler said:

---

AGC said:

---

schmendeler said:

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i didn't equate cirucmcision with gender reasssignment surgery.

this is a thread asking is transgenderism is a mental disorder.

i thought it was relevant to point out to those who would say it is, that a large percentage of the earth's population doesn't spare a second thought to the idea that it's perfectly acceptable to alter your genitals if your particular deity tells you that you should.

and that sounds crazier to me than identifying with a gender different than your sex.

---

Considering depression, anxiety, and bipolar disorder aren't highly correlated with circumcision like they are with TGs, it's not really an apt comparison. In fact, one must ignore the medical benefits and comorbidity cited above to treat them as such, which implies either ignorance (not knowing) or malice (and not caring). Conflating the two is willful blindness.

---

you are repeatedly ignoring the distinction i have made more than once. doing so at the bidding of "god" is crazy to me.

---

Circumcision was common place in BC and not done exclusively by Israel. People do it today for no religious reason at all.

---

ok?

---

You'll be shocked to hear people put water on others' heads, eat bread and drink wine at the bidding of their particular deity.

---

body modification is a bit different than the other things you have listed, no?

---

Is what you find weird the circumcision itself or that God used it as a sign?

Martin Q. Blank said:

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schmendeler said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

schmendeler said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

schmendeler said:

---

AGC said:

---

schmendeler said:

---

i didn't equate cirucmcision with gender reasssignment surgery.

this is a thread asking is transgenderism is a mental disorder.

i thought it was relevant to point out to those who would say it is, that a large percentage of the earth's population doesn't spare a second thought to the idea that it's perfectly acceptable to alter your genitals if your particular deity tells you that you should.

and that sounds crazier to me than identifying with a gender different than your sex.

---

Considering depression, anxiety, and bipolar disorder aren't highly correlated with circumcision like they are with TGs, it's not really an apt comparison. In fact, one must ignore the medical benefits and comorbidity cited above to treat them as such, which implies either ignorance (not knowing) or malice (and not caring). Conflating the two is willful blindness.

---

you are repeatedly ignoring the distinction i have made more than once. doing so at the bidding of "god" is crazy to me.

---

Circumcision was common place in BC and not done exclusively by Israel. People do it today for no religious reason at all.

---

ok?

---

You'll be shocked to hear people put water on others' heads, eat bread and drink wine at the bidding of their particular deity.

---

body modification is a bit different than the other things you have listed, no?

---

Is what you find weird the circumcision itself or that God used it as a sign?

---

circumcision as a thing is weird. but it's even more weird to imagine that the ruler of the universe wants you to do it.

schmendeler said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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schmendeler said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

schmendeler said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

schmendeler said:

---

AGC said:

---

schmendeler said:

---

i didn't equate cirucmcision with gender reasssignment surgery.

this is a thread asking is transgenderism is a mental disorder.

i thought it was relevant to point out to those who would say it is, that a large percentage of the earth's population doesn't spare a second thought to the idea that it's perfectly acceptable to alter your genitals if your particular deity tells you that you should.

and that sounds crazier to me than identifying with a gender different than your sex.

---

Considering depression, anxiety, and bipolar disorder aren't highly correlated with circumcision like they are with TGs, it's not really an apt comparison. In fact, one must ignore the medical benefits and comorbidity cited above to treat them as such, which implies either ignorance (not knowing) or malice (and not caring). Conflating the two is willful blindness.

---

you are repeatedly ignoring the distinction i have made more than once. doing so at the bidding of "god" is crazy to me.

---

Circumcision was common place in BC and not done exclusively by Israel. People do it today for no religious reason at all.

---

ok?

---

You'll be shocked to hear people put water on others' heads, eat bread and drink wine at the bidding of their particular deity.

---

body modification is a bit different than the other things you have listed, no?

---

Is what you find weird the circumcision itself or that God used it as a sign?

---

circumcision as a thing is weird. but it's even more weird to imagine that the ruler of the universe wants you to do it.

---

I had my son circumcised even though the ruler of the universe doesn't require me to do it. That's weird to you?

Martin Q. Blank said:

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schmendeler said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

schmendeler said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

schmendeler said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

schmendeler said:

---

AGC said:

---

schmendeler said:

---

i didn't equate cirucmcision with gender reasssignment surgery.

this is a thread asking is transgenderism is a mental disorder.

i thought it was relevant to point out to those who would say it is, that a large percentage of the earth's population doesn't spare a second thought to the idea that it's perfectly acceptable to alter your genitals if your particular deity tells you that you should.

and that sounds crazier to me than identifying with a gender different than your sex.

---

Considering depression, anxiety, and bipolar disorder aren't highly correlated with circumcision like they are with TGs, it's not really an apt comparison. In fact, one must ignore the medical benefits and comorbidity cited above to treat them as such, which implies either ignorance (not knowing) or malice (and not caring). Conflating the two is willful blindness.

---

you are repeatedly ignoring the distinction i have made more than once. doing so at the bidding of "god" is crazy to me.

---

Circumcision was common place in BC and not done exclusively by Israel. People do it today for no religious reason at all.

---

ok?

---

You'll be shocked to hear people put water on others' heads, eat bread and drink wine at the bidding of their particular deity.

---

body modification is a bit different than the other things you have listed, no?

---

Is what you find weird the circumcision itself or that God used it as a sign?

---

circumcision as a thing is weird. but it's even more weird to imagine that the ruler of the universe wants you to do it.

---

I had my son circumcised even though the ruler of the universe doesn't require me to do it. That's weird to you?

---

yes, though not surprising. lots of people do it.

schmendeler said:

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AGC said:

---

schmendeler said:

---

AGC said:

---

schmendeler said:

---

i didn't equate cirucmcision with gender reasssignment surgery.

this is a thread asking is transgenderism is a mental disorder.

i thought it was relevant to point out to those who would say it is, that a large percentage of the earth's population doesn't spare a second thought to the idea that it's perfectly acceptable to alter your genitals if your particular deity tells you that you should.

and that sounds crazier to me than identifying with a gender different than your sex.

---

Considering depression, anxiety, and bipolar disorder aren't highly correlated with circumcision like they are with TGs, it's not really an apt comparison. In fact, one must ignore the medical benefits and comorbidity cited above to treat them as such, which implies either ignorance (not knowing) or malice (and not caring). Conflating the two is willful blindness.

---

you are repeatedly ignoring the distinction i have made more than once. doing so at the bidding of "god" is crazy to me.

---

So are we still saying this isn't about postmodernism and people determining their own truth? There is objective evidence that this is a beneficial procedure practiced widely and also observed for non-religious reasons. The Christian stipulation would be that God created and ordered the world and therefore his commands have natural practical purpose (which we have discovered and know for scientific fact in this case). In order for you, personally, to make this distinction you have to ignore comorbidity (other mental disorders with a high correlation to TGs) to compare the two. FGM is a much better example of what you're positing, but it's problematic because you don't get to call Christians crazy while allowing medical professionals to pump five year olds full of puberty blockers and other hormones.

---

i thought this was a forum to share opinions on the topics being discussed? are you saying that personal judgements aren't allowed?

as for female circumcision, it is disgusting. i find male circumcision less distasteful but still wrong.

doing either because god told you to is crazy.

---

To the pre-moderns this isn't an issue at all (completely dependent on God / unknown forces, it's his to do with as he pleases - like many Muslim societies in Africa). To moderns it still isn't that big of an issue. To post-moderns like yourself, yes, it's a big issue because why should anyone or anything else determine truth or good?

But for people in the post-modern era like ourselves we still do it because as RamblinAg aptly illustrated, we know for a fact that it is neutral at best and beneficial at worst. Your protestation that Christians do it today because God commanded isn't fitting because it's not a command for us (unless you're saying ancient Christians who did it were just as crazy, but I haven't seen the context to believe that's your point).

We do it because if it's beneficial effects. And there isn't a high correlation of depression, anxiety, and other various mental disorders associated in addition to lifelong dependency on drugs to maintain it. It's not driven by trauma, abuse, and isn't plagued with suicidal ideation after it's been done. Have your opinion but your opinion conflating the two procedures for the modern Christian seems like more of a disorder than circumcising a child today.

People are so scared of labeling it a mental disorder as if it means you are saying they are lesser people...yet we all know people who are bipolar, histrionic, depressed, narcissistic, OCD to varying degrees (all mental disorders)...and people don't go crazy and call you a bigot if you agree that these are disorders.

A guy who feels the need to wash his hands 20 times a day has a mental disorder...Yet a man is convinced he is a woman, to the point he wants to have his pecker cut off and have a vagina fashioned from his old scrotal skin and that is somehow NOT a mental disorder??? Not buying it, sorry.

The suicide rate among people with this problem is extremely high and it is heartbreaking. It seems to be just as high after gender reassignment surgery. In 20 years, I fear we are going to look back on this era and think "what the hell were we doing???" with regards to "treating" gender identity disorders by cutting off pen*ses.

Quote:

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People are so scared of labeling it a mental disorder as if it means you are saying they are lesser people...yet we all know people who are bipolar, histrionic, depressed, narcissistic, OCD to varying degrees (all mental disorders)...and people don't go crazy and call you a bigot if you agree that these are disorders.

---

Well, the odd thing is that you don't hear people calling someone who is depressed a "freak", or any number of derogatory things that you hear hurled at trans persons.

Quote:

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A guy who feels the need to wash his hands 20 times a day has a mental disorder...Yet a man is convinced he is a woman, to the point he wants to have his pecker cut off and have a vagina fashioned from his old scrotal skin and that is somehow NOT a mental disorder??? Not buying it, sorry.

---

There appears to be some structural differences in the brain that would at least give pause to labeling it a mental disorder.

Quote:

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The suicide rate among people with this problem is extremely high and it is heartbreaking. It seems to be just as high after gender reassignment surgery. In 20 years, I fear we are going to look back on this era and think "what the hell were we doing???" with regards to "treating" gender identity disorders by cutting off pen*ses.

---

I believe multiple studies have shown that the suicide rate drops significantly when surrounded by a loving and accepting support network. Also, the study you're alluding to re: suicide rates after transition is often misused, and even the author has come out and indicated that it's not saying what the anti-trans crowd claims it says. I'll look for a link on that. We do see in societies like American Samoa with the Fa'afafene, there appears to be no significant increase in suicide rates. And not all trans people have surgery. My friend is only on hormones, and not even living fulltime as a woman, nor does she plan to.

RetiredAg said:

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Quote:

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People are so scared of labeling it a mental disorder as if it means you are saying they are lesser people...yet we all know people who are bipolar, histrionic, depressed, narcissistic, OCD to varying degrees (all mental disorders)...and people don't go crazy and call you a bigot if you agree that these are disorders.

---

Well, the odd thing is that you don't hear people calling someone who is depressed a "freak", or any number of derogatory things that you hear hurled at trans persons.

Quote:

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A guy who feels the need to wash his hands 20 times a day has a mental disorder...Yet a man is convinced he is a woman, to the point he wants to have his pecker cut off and have a vagina fashioned from his old scrotal skin and that is somehow NOT a mental disorder??? Not buying it, sorry.

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There appears to be some structural differences in the brain that would at least give pause to labeling it a mental disorder.

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The suicide rate among people with this problem is extremely high and it is heartbreaking. It seems to be just as high after gender reassignment surgery. In 20 years, I fear we are going to look back on this era and think "what the hell were we doing???" with regards to "treating" gender identity disorders by cutting off pen*ses.

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I believe multiple studies have shown that the suicide rate drops significantly when surrounded by a loving and accepting support network. Also, the study you're alluding to re: suicide rates after transition is often misused, and even the author has come out and indicated that it's not saying what the anti-trans crowd claims it says. I'll look for a link on that. We do see in societies like American Samoa with the Fa'afafene, there appears to be no significant increase in suicide rates. And not all trans people have surgery. My friend is only on hormones, and not even living fulltime as a woman, nor does she plan to.

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I respectfully disagree. It is so clearly a mental disorder it is not even funny.

I do agree that calling them freaks etc. is very wrong. Most of them are just trying to blend into society and cope with the cards they were dealt from my experience and aren't the types walking around in bondage outfits committing lewd acts in public on the gay pride parade floats.

We should be showing these people love. All of us. And that doesn't mean saying "yeah, you know, maybe chopping off your pen*s and making a fake vagina with your scrotum skin will make everything better!"

You should read the after-sex-change horror stories. It is honestly pretty repulsive. I'll just say it does not function like a normal vagina and I could see how it could make things even worse for many subjects who envisioned something else. And I understand that not all of them have the surgery...many more would most likely, if they could afford it.

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I respectfully disagree. It is so clearly a mental disorder it is not even funny.

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Except we don't really know. Again, there actually may be structural differences in the brain that explain this: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/05/22/transgender-brain-scans-promised-study-shows-structural-differences/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_tw

We just don't know enough about it to say one way or the other.

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I do agree that calling them freaks etc. is very wrong. Most of them are just trying to blend into society and cope with the cards they were dealt from my experience and aren't the types walking around in bondage outfits committing lewd acts in public on the gay pride parade floats.

We should be showing these people love. All of us. And that doesn't mean saying "yeah, you know, maybe chopping off your pen*s and making a fake vagina with your scrotum skin will make everything better!"

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Can I expect you'll call out our fellow Christians on the Politics board when they do this very thing (calling them freaks and all manner of insults)? Yes, we should be showing them love, because as we see in places where they are shown love, their suicide rates go down significantly. But, sometimes surgery does make it better. Mark Yarhouse is a Christian psychiatrist and he wrote a book called "Understanding Gender Dysphoria". It's really written more towards developing a pastoral approach, but his basic position is that some people suffering may be able to manage it without changes at all. Some may be able to manage with just hormone therapy (where my friend is), and others may need greater change. He advises the path of least "invasiveness".

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You should read the after-sex-change horror stories. It is honestly pretty repulsive. I'll just say it does not function like a normal vagina and I could see how it could make things even worse for many subjects who envisioned something else. And I understand that not all of them have the surgery...many more would most likely, if they could afford it.

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There are certainly horror stories for some. There are many who have full reassignment surgery and it's a tremendous success. Like I said, we're still learning about this, and I think it's dangerous to say there's a one-size-fits-all approach.

RetiredAg said:

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I respectfully disagree. It is so clearly a mental disorder it is not even funny.

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Except we don't really know. Again, there actually may be structural differences in the brain that explain this: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/05/22/transgender-brain-scans-promised-study-shows-structural-differences/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_tw

We just don't know enough about it to say one way or the other.

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I do agree that calling them freaks etc. is very wrong. Most of them are just trying to blend into society and cope with the cards they were dealt from my experience and aren't the types walking around in bondage outfits committing lewd acts in public on the gay pride parade floats.

We should be showing these people love. All of us. And that doesn't mean saying "yeah, you know, maybe chopping off your pen*s and making a fake vagina with your scrotum skin will make everything better!"

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Can I expect you'll call out our fellow Christians on the Politics board when they do this very thing (calling them freaks and all manner of insults)? Yes, we should be showing them love, because as we see in places where they are shown love, their suicide rates go down significantly. But, sometimes surgery does make it better. Mark Yarhouse is a Christian psychiatrist and he wrote a book called "Understanding Gender Dysphoria". It's really written more towards developing a pastoral approach, but his basic position is that some people suffering may be able to manage it without changes at all. Some may be able to manage with just hormone therapy (where my friend is), and others may need greater change. He advises the path of least "invasiveness".

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You should read the after-sex-change horror stories. It is honestly pretty repulsive. I'll just say it does not function like a normal vagina and I could see how it could make things even worse for many subjects who envisioned something else. And I understand that not all of them have the surgery...many more would most likely, if they could afford it.

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There are certainly horror stories for some. There are many who have full reassignment surgery and it's a tremendous success. Like I said, we're still learning about this, and I think it's dangerous to say there's a one-size-fits-all approach.

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I agree with just about everything you said. I actually have called out fellow conservatives on the politics board believe it or not for calling transgendered people freaks and drug addicts losers. I think if some of these posters met some of these people in person or had to deal with it first hand with a loved one, they'd see things in a different light.

On the flip side though, I have also been berated and called all sorts of names for stating that I believe it is a mental disorder. Probably half the people I know have some form of mental disorder, so I just don't see why so many people get so worked up at this notion.

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On the flip side though, I have also been berated and called all sorts of names for stating that I believe it is a mental disorder. Probably half the people I know have some form of mental disorder, so I just don't see why so many people get so worked up at this notion.

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I absolutely agree that many take it too far the other way. I understand the belief that it's a mental disorder. I would disagree, but I very well could be wrong. I don't that belief should make one the target of vitriol. I just don't believe we know enough about this, one way or the other, to make any definitive statements. I think the current positions are typically driven more by one's personal predispositions on the subject than anything. I do find it intriguing that there may be structural differences in the brain of those struggling with this that would match their gender identity, but our understanding is so limited right now that it's impossible to say.

All I do know is that my friend is so much healthier right now because she's not constantly wanting to kill herself. She's found that hormone therapy has worked for her, even though she doesn't live fulltime as a woman (or even plan to).

RetiredAg said:

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On the flip side though, I have also been berated and called all sorts of names for stating that I believe it is a mental disorder. Probably half the people I know have some form of mental disorder, so I just don't see why so many people get so worked up at this notion.

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I absolutely agree that many take it too far the other way. I understand the belief that it's a mental disorder. I would disagree, but I very well could be wrong. I don't that belief should make one the target of vitriol. I just don't believe we know enough about this, one way or the other, to make any definitive statements. I think the current positions are typically driven more by one's personal predispositions on the subject than anything. I do find it intriguing that there may be structural differences in the brain of those struggling with this that would match their gender identity, but our understanding is so limited right now that it's impossible to say.

All I do know is that my friend is so much healthier right now because she's not constantly wanting to kill herself. She's found that hormone therapy has worked for her, even though she doesn't live fulltime as a woman (or even plan to).

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Good for her...i know that hormone therapy has definitely worked for many straight non-trans people suffering from depression and other negative symptoms or ailments.

I do get a much different feeling when I see drag kids getting paraded around by their parents and held up as icons and heroes by the gay/trans community (or the fringe element thereof)...or stories of people treating their young children with hormone therapy.

There is so much we do not know, but I am pretty certain that with young children, maybe it's a good idea to let things play out at least into their teens or early adult hood before we start assuming things are set in stone.

AstroAg17 said:

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The definition I'll use for gender is, "socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women".

I think it's apparent that many of the cultural norms we assign to men and women are arbitrary. It's equally reasonable to have men wear pink dresses and women to wear blue jeans, and you could have a society where identification with those articles of clothing is standard or cis. I'd argue that all aspects of gender are arbitrary or "socially constructed" as the definition puts it. There are no objective criteria to link a sex and a gender.

So how then is identification with the other gender a physical condition? Biologically speaking, why is preferring to wear blue or playing with truck instead of dolls anything more than a choice? That's not a condition, it's a preference.

But we know that being transgender is not a choice, or at least it's not a conscious choice. There are physiological differences in the brains of transgendered people relative to normal people, and I doubt many would prefer to take on the many problems associated with being trans.

I have a lot of difficulty reconciling the previous two paragraphs, because I believe both are true. If gender isn't a physiological property of an individual, now then can feeling like the other gender be a physiological property? I'm not sure.

I think that probably the term "mental disorder" is appropriate. It's certainly a disordered, abnormal state which correlates and may or may not have a causative relationship with many other psychological problems. I understand the desire not to call something a disorder but I do feel the term is appropriate.

I remember we had a good thread between 6 months and a year ago about the effectiveness of conversion therapy, including surgical transition. If I remember correctly, it has mixed results. But repression and hatred are definitely worse.

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How strong is the correlation between brain physiology and transgenderism? Why is the fact that it has a physiological basis relevant to the discussion? How many of our preferences are conscious choices that we make? Don't all of our preferences have some physiological basis? I guess I don't really see the contradiction that you're seeing.

I agree that transgender is abnormal, but define disordered. I don't think correlation with other psychological problems alone suggests mental disorder. For instance, if high IQ (or whatever proxy you want to use for intelligence) was shown to correlate with psychological issues I doubt anyone would call high IQ itself a mental disorder. I think if you could make a causative argument you would have a much stronger case if you want to go that route, but there are so many confounding variables I doubt that is practical.

americathegreat1492 said:

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It might be helpful to evaluate it using the same sorts of criteria that are used to evaluate other syndromes that are classified as "disorders." Note that this is simply the criteria used by current medical and psychological experts and that if you want to argue another set of criteria we can certainly have that conversation. As a general rule, things that do not fit all of these criteria are not considered disorders, for some very obvious reasons. These criteria are also presented in slightly different ways, but generally they are:

Disturbance
Dysfunction
Distress or disability
Deviancy


Disturbance refers to a disruption in normal thought, emotion, or behavior. A classic example of disturbance is the schiophrenic's auditory hallucinations.

Dysfunction refers to behavior, thoughts, or emotions that impair normal living. An example of this is the excessive loss of motivation and fatigue experienced by depressed people that makes it difficult to engage in self-care or even get out of bed.

Deviancy can refer to either (or both) statistical deviancy (i.e. engaging in low frequency behavior) or social norm violations.

Distress or disability refers to what I would call the "suffering" component of the disorder. The changes in thought, emotion, and/or behavior are uncomfortable, unwanted, and the person reacts negatively to them.



So, if we want to analyze transgenderism from this perspective, we get something like the following.

Disturbance. I think you can make a case that feeling or thinking like you are not the sex your biology suggests is a disturbance, though maybe you could make the case that it isn't a clinically significant disturbance.

Dysfunction. Again, you could make somewhat of a case for this being dysfunctional if it impairs your ability to act in the world, which to some degree it does if you tried to act out certain behaviors that don't match your biology.

Deviant. No question that it is deviant in that it doesn't adhere to social norms and is also statistically infrequent.

Distress. This is the one that transgenderism really hinges on in terms of receiving a mental disorder classification. Some people who are transgender are definitely distressed by it, though perhaps not all. This fourth criterion is why transgender was removed and a new category labelled "gender dysphoria" was added in. Those who are experiencing distress receive the gender dysphoria diagnosis, but generally do not receive a diagnosis if they are not distressed.

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You seem to know something about this stuff, so I'll address this question towards you: does this factor in changing social norms and mores at all? I agree with what you've said, but I can envision a society which is highly accepting and participates in trasngenderism in a much higher proportion where transgenderism fails to meet all of those criterion.

If such a society existed, the deviance goes away by definition. It's possible that transgenderism is inherently related with feelings of distress, however it's also possible that the distress is called by a transgender individual's interaction with a society that is by and large not accepting of them. If it is the latter, then the disturbance portion of the definition goes away as well. I feel like a very similar argument could be made for deviance as well. Which leaves disturbance. I suppose if you want to define feeling as though you are a different gender than your sex as a disturbance then that's fine, but as you've already stated there is a question about whether or not that alone is clinically significant. In a society highly accepting of transgenderism I doubt it would be considered a disturbance either.

So there you have it: in a society where transgenderism is highly accepted the phenomenon meets somewhere between zero and three of those criterion, which means in such a society it's not considered a mental disorder. But this seems odd. Why would a mental disorder be contingent on societal norms and mores? Unless I simply don't understand what one means by mental disorder, it seems that whether or not there is something awry with your psyche should depend on your psyche alone, not on the society around it. Can you clear up this confusion for me?