Of course I pray for our society to repent and finally reflect Christ. I pray for government officials to repent and finally reflect Christ. I pray the church rejects this "America First" nonsense, just as I pray all Christians elsewhere reject the same mindless tribalism. I pray the same for all nations and leaders. I don't pray for military victory or political agendas to be successful. That doesn't actually answer any questions from my last post. I'll ask again:

When did the "American church" make a covenant with God? Was it when the American church, largely Protestant, was using their position to sanctify genocide or slavery? Or was it when the American church, largely Protestant, was using their position to sanctify systemic discrimination against minorities, LGBT persons, etc? How is this any different than North Korean Christians claiming that the North Korean church has made a covenant with God?

UT you keep turning this into a discussion about America. You do know that Christianity existed for 1500+ years before any Europeans settled here right? Any maxims that apply to the Christian Faith cannot be specific to Americans. Then they are American concepts, not Christian ones.

RetiredAg said:

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Of course I pray for our society to repent and finally reflect Christ. I pray for government officials to repent and finally reflect Christ. I pray the church rejects this "America First" nonsense, just as I pray all Christians elsewhere reject the same mindless tribalism. I pray the same for all nations and leaders. I don't pray for military victory or political agendas to be successful. That doesn't actually answer any questions from my last post. I'll ask again:

When did the "American church" make a covenant with God? Was it when the American church, largely Protestant, was using their position to sanctify genocide or slavery? etc? How is this any different than North Korean Christians claiming that the North Korean church has made a covenant with God?

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I am glad you are praying! Remember Romans 8:26

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In the same way the Spirit [comes to us and] helps us in our weakness. We do not know what prayer to offer or how to offer it as we should, but the Spirit Himself [knows our need and at the right time] intercedes on our behalf with sighs and groanings too deep for words.

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The American church (church located in America just to be clear) makes a covenant with God when it is the instrument of salvation for the lost, when it preaches the gospel out of love, when it comes to the communion table, when it confesses and repents of sins, when it visits the sick, helps widows or orphans or the poor. That covenant is simple: "Yes, Jesus. We hear you and will do as you wish us to do, because you, Lord Jesus Christ are the author and finisher of our salvation and our ever present help in time of trouble."

And your other comment:

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Or was it when the American church, largely Protestant, was using their position to sanctify systemic discrimination against minorities, LGBT persons,

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Some churches, have in fact been taken over by LGBTQ advocates. In the United Methodist Church, it was largely African delegates who defeated attempts to change church doctrine toward LGBTQ people. If you have ever attended a Pride festival, then you know it is not just community solidarity engaged that is engaged in but a spirit of lust and rebellion and open sexual activity and lewdness. Do you approve that?

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The American church (church located in America just to be clear) makes a covenant with God when it is the instrument of salvation for the lost, when it preaches the gospel out of love, when it comes to the communion table, when it confesses and repents of sins, when it visits the sick, helps widows or orphans or the poor. That covenant is simple: "Yes, Jesus. We hear you and will do as you wish us to do, because you, Lord Jesus Christ are the author and finisher of our salvation and our ever present help in time of trouble."

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Okay, so there's nothing uniquely American about that. That's no covenant between America and God, as you initially claimed. That's the same "covenant" that the Church as a whole has entered into with God. That's no different than the "covenant" that North Korean Christians have entered into. Or Russian. Or Palestinian. You have now successfully completely backtracked from your initial position. There is no covenant between America and God. There's one between God and His church.

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Some churches, have in fact been taken over by LGBTQ advocates. In the United Methodist Church, it was largely African delegates who defeated attempts to change church doctrine toward LGBTQ people. If you have ever attended a Pride festival, then you know it is not just community solidarity engaged that is engaged in but a spirit of lust and rebellion and open sexual activity and lewdness. Do you approve that?

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Sigh...I knew I shouldn't have used the LGBT example because I knew you'd latch onto that. The issue was discrimination and horrific treatment of LGBT persons that the church has, for far too long, attempted to sanctify. You're deflecting here. No, I obviously don't support the "spirit of lust and rebellion and open sexual activity and lewdness" that we see in segments of the LGBT community or in any heterosexual nightclub on any given Friday night. I also don't support the hate-filled, and far too often violent, way that many in the church have treated this community, all the while trying to sanctify it with cherry-picked verses.

RetiredAg said:

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Okay, so there's nothing uniquely American about that. That's no covenant between America and God, as you initially claimed. That's the same "covenant" that the Church as a whole has entered into with God. That's no different than the "covenant" that North Korean Christians have entered into. Or Russian. Or Palestinian. You have now successfully completely backtracked from your initial position. There is no covenant between America and God. There's one between God and His church.


Sigh...I knew I shouldn't have used the LGBT example because I knew you'd latch onto that. The issue was discrimination and horrific treatment of LGBT persons that the church has, for far too long, attempted to sanctify. You're deflecting here. No, I obviously don't support the "spirit of lust and rebellion and open sexual activity and lewdness" that we see in segments of the LGBT community or in any heterosexual nightclub on any given Friday night. I also don't support the hate-filled, and far too often violent, way that many in the church have treated this community, all the while trying to sanctify it with cherry-picked verses.

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LGBTQ people are just people like me. I don't pretend to understand it from a faith point of view but I have no axe to grind there.

I still maintain that the America exists because of the spiritual fruit of our ancestors to trust God and place their trust in him. I also believe that we as Christians can continually dedicate our land to God's glory and thereby enter into agreement (covenant) with him.

And the Bible, at least to me, makes it clear that nations/ethnic groups do enter into covenant with God:

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Psalm 33:12 - Blessed [is] the nation whose God [is] the LORD; [and] the people [whom] he hath chosen for his own inheritance.

Isaiah 60:12 - For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, [those] nations shall be utterly wasted.

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LGBTQ people are just people like me. I don't pretend to understand it from a faith point of view but I have no axe to grind there.

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This isn't about your personal views on the LGBT community. It's about the mistreatment they've received in this country that's received a significant amount of support from the "Protestant-dominated" country that you claim is in covenant with God.

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I still maintain that the America exists because of the spiritual fruit of our ancestors to trust God and place their trust in him. I also believe that we as Christians can continually dedicate our land to God's glory and thereby enter into agreement (covenant) with him.

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The ancestors that enslaved a race and committed genocide against the native populations? Each nation has ancestors that claimed belief in Christ. But you've still not supported the claim that America was in covenant with God. At what point of great national shame did we look like a nation in covenant with God? There's no more a covenant between America and God as there is between North Korea and God. There are believers, in both countries, that do love God dearly and serve Him, but America, as a nation, has never been in covenant with God.

k2aggie07 said:

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That's not really how biblical covenants work. You don't get to declare a covenant with God and automatically get carte blanche to.. oh I don't know... kill people in other countries by remote control.

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Exactly. It's like Michael Scott walking into the office and screaming "I DECLARE BANKRUPTCY!" It doesn't actually mean anything. If we're going to declare covenant with God, then that means we need to lay down Caesar's sword, welcome the stranger (regardless of legal status), and become a people that actually looks like Christ.

Screaming at people on the internet is TOTALLY how we get there


(and please know I'm just messing with you)

I'm not typing in all CAPS, therefore not yelling.

k2aggie07 said:

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That's not really how biblical covenants work. You don't get to declare a covenant with God and automatically get carte blanche to.. oh I don't know... kill people in other countries by remote control.

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I doubt you have any experience with modern weaponry, but almost everything is remote killing unless you are in close quarters / within rifle range or a sniper with an extended range system. Mortar? 600 to 10 k meters depending on ammo. Tube artiilery? Up to 40-50 k meters. A pilot dropping a bomb will have a better view of the enemy than an artillery gun crew.

RetiredAg said:

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k2aggie07 said:

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That's not really how biblical covenants work. You don't get to declare a covenant with God and automatically get carte blanche to.. oh I don't know... kill people in other countries by remote control.

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Exactly. It's like Michael Scott walking into the office and screaming "I DECLARE BANKRUPTCY!" It doesn't actually mean anything. If we're going to declare covenant with God, then that means we need to lay down Caesar's sword, welcome the stranger (regardless of legal status), and become a people that actually looks like Christ.

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I am always curious when someone tells me I "need" to do something so they can feel better. That almost sounds like a cult.

Hey! Ad hominem! When all you have is a hammer, I guess...?

And no, believe it or not, my objection to the article you linked in the op is not over the means used to kill. I don't support knifing someone to death any more than waking them up with a missile from 10,000 ft.

Right, like for example when Jesus says you need to repent.

k2aggie07 said:

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Right, like for example when Jesus says you need to repent.

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Jesus telling me to repent is one thing. People who are vested in their church-corporate identity is quite another thing. If I had my way, we would go back to small churches with lay preachers. Unless the pastor and the service possesses a Holy Spirit anointing church can be a waste of time.

"Go back to"? When, exactly?

Apostles in the NT were not lay preachers.

I say this with a great deal of sadness - you elucidate everything that is wrong with the modern American cultural religion masquerading as Christianity.

k2aggie07 said:

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"Go back to"? When, exactly?

Apostles in the NT were not lay preachers.

I say this with a great deal of sadness - you elucidate everything that is wrong with the modern American cultural religion masquerading as Christianity.

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I am happy to have fit your preconstructed stereotype. That's where this was going anyway. I will post David Wilkerson'ssermonon the end time apostate church at some point to give perspective on my viewpoint.

Save it, I grew up in southern baptist churches. I'm very aware of your viewpiont. It's extremely American - independence and self-reliance a must, mistrust or outright rejection of authority, patriotism as a virtue.

You don't even know enough about Orthodoxy or Orthodox theology to level a halfway realistic criticism, and are glad to go to a church with a pastor who more than likely has near absolute control over most matters (most SBC pastors operate in a kind of CEO role) while complaining loudly about priests.

Meh, this is not productive. I'll bow out.

UTExan said:

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RetiredAg said:

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k2aggie07 said:

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That's not really how biblical covenants work. You don't get to declare a covenant with God and automatically get carte blanche to.. oh I don't know... kill people in other countries by remote control.

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Exactly. It's like Michael Scott walking into the office and screaming "I DECLARE BANKRUPTCY!" It doesn't actually mean anything. If we're going to declare covenant with God, then that means we need to lay down Caesar's sword, welcome the stranger (regardless of legal status), and become a people that actually looks like Christ.

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I am always curious when someone tells me I "need" to do something so they can feel better. That almost sounds like a cult.

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So saying Christians need to act like Christ is "cultish"? Jesus said to turn the other cheek, love our enemies and that those who take up the sword will perish by the sword. Jesus said we are to care for the stranger, and how we treat the marginalized is how we treat Him. Heck, my words are soft compared to many of the early church (http://enemylove.com/40-early-church-quotes-on-violence-enemy-love-patriotism/). But, I'd settle for being in a state of war less than half the time. That should be even acceptable for non-pacifists.

Would you label it cultish if I told you that we, as Christians, need to respect life? That we need to pray? Need to study the scriptures? Or is it only cultish if someone says you need to do something that you don't want to do. I guess that way one can claim to be in covenant with God while they reject refugees, close our borders to people fleeing the dangers of their nation. Claim to be a nation in covenant with God while enslaving millions and committing genocide.

Are you asking with a straight face why the children and grandchildren of German immigrants didn't uproot to go back to a Germany strangled by the treaty of Versailles or split in half by the Berlin wall?

PS "Lutheran state" doesn't necessarily mean confessional and non-Zwinglian in your examples. Or that they could worship freely how they wanted.

UTExan said:

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k2aggie07 said:

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Right, like for example when Jesus says you need to repent.

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Jesus telling me to repent is one thing. People who are vested in their church-corporate identity is quite another thing. If I had my way, we would go back to small churches with lay preachers. Unless the pastor and the service possesses a Holy Spirit anointing church can be a waste of time.

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My church-corporate identity? I'm sorry. I don't follow. In what way am i "vested in my church-corporate identity"? Im not even sure what that means.

And only Jesus can tell you to repent? So Paul, Peter, and others never called people to repentance?

k2aggie07 said:

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Forgive me, I've been less than charitable. Please pray for me.

Today we celebrate Christ Jesus' Ascension into heaven and look forward to the celebration of Pentecost. Christ has Ascended!

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And I as well.

I must ask your forgiveness as well. Christ is Risen!

We only say Christ is Risen during the paschal season. Since it's after vespers, Pascha is over. No more Christ is Risen til next year.

But tomorrow/today is the feast of the Ascension! So Christ is Ascended in Glory!

Technically ascended is just like risen, only difference is the elevation level