Do you think the church has any obligation to reflect the community at large in terms of racial diversity? If so, how can that be accomplished?

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/09/us/blacks-evangelical-churches.html

Depends on the cause of abandonment. I read part of it earlier today and was disheartened by many of the reasons for leaving and their responses. The kingdom will be diverse but the church must pursue truth and justice on earth only where they align. One cannot abandon truth for anything else. I believe our society values individuality and by extension self proclaimed identity, so much so that many exclude themselves from truth and seek other things.

Reconciliation is a hard topic because it requires forgiveness, unconditionally, which many are loathe to give. Obliterating the idea of being a black American or black evangelical rather than an American and evangelical would be a start. No one identifies as a white evangelical or white American. We need a shared sense of identity, not a fractured one.

AGC said:

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Depends on the cause of abandonment. I read part of it earlier today and was disheartened by many of the reasons for leaving and their responses. The kingdom will be diverse but the church must pursue truth and justice on earth only where they align. One cannot abandon truth for anything else. I believe our society values individuality and by extension self proclaimed identity, so much so that many exclude themselves from truth and seek other things.

Reconciliation is a hard topic because it requires forgiveness, unconditionally, which many are loathe to give. Obliterating the idea of being a black American or black evangelical rather than an American and evangelical would be a start. No one identifies as a white evangelical or white American. We need a shared sense of identity, not a fractured one.

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Good initial response. However the clear implication here is that many white people have not abandoned their race and even give it primacy over the gospel messages. I agree with that, by the way.

Haven't noticed it at my church.

I think we are 30-40% black.

Solo Tetherball Champ said:

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Haven't noticed it at my church.

I think we are 30-40% black.

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Do you think that aids the gospel mission?

TXK said:

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AGC said:

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Depends on the cause of abandonment. I read part of it earlier today and was disheartened by many of the reasons for leaving and their responses. The kingdom will be diverse but the church must pursue truth and justice on earth only where they align. One cannot abandon truth for anything else. I believe our society values individuality and by extension self proclaimed identity, so much so that many exclude themselves from truth and seek other things.

Reconciliation is a hard topic because it requires forgiveness, unconditionally, which many are loathe to give. Obliterating the idea of being a black American or black evangelical rather than an American and evangelical would be a start. No one identifies as a white evangelical or white American. We need a shared sense of identity, not a fractured one.

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Good initial response. However the clear implication here is that many white people have not abandoned their race and even give it primacy over the gospel messages. I agree with that, by the way.

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I disagree. I don't think whites view themselves as white. If I asked all of my fellow lay leaders what their identity is, none would mention whiteness. Nor would I. That's a big difference in self identification.

Time orientation is different in both cultures too. The black culture wants immediate justice when something happens because of their racial memory (see Trayveon referenced in the article) while the white culture is willing to give it time for facts to roll out. The black culture wants needs closure for past grievances which don't apply to whites currently alive.

That's not impossible to put aside but it's a lot to reconcile. It's a difference of belief in equity, justice, and time. We can't be split by those issues and hope to reconcile.

TXK said:

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Solo Tetherball Champ said:

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Haven't noticed it at my church.

I think we are 30-40% black.

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Do you think that aids the gospel mission?

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Please elaborate, I am only able to perceive your question as if you are trying to suggest that a diverse, mixed church is somehow bad for the Gospel.

Take it to the politics board please. And I would be very curious how this study was slanted northern lib states vs southern conservative states.

Dr. Watson said:

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AGC said:

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TXK said:

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AGC said:

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Depends on the cause of abandonment. I read part of it earlier today and was disheartened by many of the reasons for leaving and their responses. The kingdom will be diverse but the church must pursue truth and justice on earth only where they align. One cannot abandon truth for anything else. I believe our society values individuality and by extension self proclaimed identity, so much so that many exclude themselves from truth and seek other things.

Reconciliation is a hard topic because it requires forgiveness, unconditionally, which many are loathe to give. Obliterating the idea of being a black American or black evangelical rather than an American and evangelical would be a start. No one identifies as a white evangelical or white American. We need a shared sense of identity, not a fractured one.

---

Good initial response. However the clear implication here is that many white people have not abandoned their race and even give it primacy over the gospel messages. I agree with that, by the way.

---

I disagree. I don't think whites view themselves as white. If I asked all of my fellow lay leaders what their identity is, none would mention whiteness. Nor would I. That's a big difference in self identification.

Time orientation is different in both cultures too. The black culture wants immediate justice when something happens because of their racial memory (see Trayveon referenced in the article) while the white culture is willing to give it time for facts to roll out. The black culture wants needs closure for past grievances which don't apply to whites currently alive.

That's not impossible to put aside but it's a lot to reconcile. It's a difference of belief in equity, justice, and time. We can't be split by those issues and hope to reconcile.

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This is exhibit A of white privilege. Most white people have never HAD to consider their race. And many do while not acknowledging it as such.

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And this is total bs. Google white privilege and see how many articles show up. And go to a college campus and look for courses on any other race than white privilege.

dermdoc said:

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Dr. Watson said:

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AGC said:

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TXK said:

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AGC said:

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Depends on the cause of abandonment. I read part of it earlier today and was disheartened by many of the reasons for leaving and their responses. The kingdom will be diverse but the church must pursue truth and justice on earth only where they align. One cannot abandon truth for anything else. I believe our society values individuality and by extension self proclaimed identity, so much so that many exclude themselves from truth and seek other things.

Reconciliation is a hard topic because it requires forgiveness, unconditionally, which many are loathe to give. Obliterating the idea of being a black American or black evangelical rather than an American and evangelical would be a start. No one identifies as a white evangelical or white American. We need a shared sense of identity, not a fractured one.

---

Good initial response. However the clear implication here is that many white people have not abandoned their race and even give it primacy over the gospel messages. I agree with that, by the way.

---

I disagree. I don't think whites view themselves as white. If I asked all of my fellow lay leaders what their identity is, none would mention whiteness. Nor would I. That's a big difference in self identification.

Time orientation is different in both cultures too. The black culture wants immediate justice when something happens because of their racial memory (see Trayveon referenced in the article) while the white culture is willing to give it time for facts to roll out. The black culture wants needs closure for past grievances which don't apply to whites currently alive.

That's not impossible to put aside but it's a lot to reconcile. It's a difference of belief in equity, justice, and time. We can't be split by those issues and hope to reconcile.

---

This is exhibit A of white privilege. Most white people have never HAD to consider their race. And many do while not acknowledging it as such.

---

And this is total bs. Google white privilege and see how many articles show up. And go to a college campus and look for courses on any other race than white privilege.

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What are you trying to argue? Do you understand what I'm saying when I say white privilege? It can be reflected by white people telling black people to get over race without ever reflecting on how notions of race and whiteness built society.

Dr. Watson said:

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dermdoc said:

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Dr. Watson said:

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AGC said:

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TXK said:

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AGC said:

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Depends on the cause of abandonment. I read part of it earlier today and was disheartened by many of the reasons for leaving and their responses. The kingdom will be diverse but the church must pursue truth and justice on earth only where they align. One cannot abandon truth for anything else. I believe our society values individuality and by extension self proclaimed identity, so much so that many exclude themselves from truth and seek other things.

Reconciliation is a hard topic because it requires forgiveness, unconditionally, which many are loathe to give. Obliterating the idea of being a black American or black evangelical rather than an American and evangelical would be a start. No one identifies as a white evangelical or white American. We need a shared sense of identity, not a fractured one.

---

Good initial response. However the clear implication here is that many white people have not abandoned their race and even give it primacy over the gospel messages. I agree with that, by the way.

---

I disagree. I don't think whites view themselves as white. If I asked all of my fellow lay leaders what their identity is, none would mention whiteness. Nor would I. That's a big difference in self identification.

Time orientation is different in both cultures too. The black culture wants immediate justice when something happens because of their racial memory (see Trayveon referenced in the article) while the white culture is willing to give it time for facts to roll out. The black culture wants needs closure for past grievances which don't apply to whites currently alive.

That's not impossible to put aside but it's a lot to reconcile. It's a difference of belief in equity, justice, and time. We can't be split by those issues and hope to reconcile.

---

This is exhibit A of white privilege. Most white people have never HAD to consider their race. And many do while not acknowledging it as such.

---

And this is total bs. Google white privilege and see how many articles show up. And go to a college campus and look for courses on any other race than white privilege.

---

What are you trying to argue? Do you understand what I'm saying when I say white privilege? It can be reflected by white people telling black people to get over race without ever reflecting on how notions of race and whiteness built society.

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That is not what you posted earlier. You are
Moving the goalposts. I asked questions based upon what you posted and you did not answer them but deflected.

dermdoc said:

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Dr. Watson said:

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dermdoc said:

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Dr. Watson said:

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AGC said:

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TXK said:

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AGC said:

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Depends on the cause of abandonment. I read part of it earlier today and was disheartened by many of the reasons for leaving and their responses. The kingdom will be diverse but the church must pursue truth and justice on earth only where they align. One cannot abandon truth for anything else. I believe our society values individuality and by extension self proclaimed identity, so much so that many exclude themselves from truth and seek other things.

Reconciliation is a hard topic because it requires forgiveness, unconditionally, which many are loathe to give. Obliterating the idea of being a black American or black evangelical rather than an American and evangelical would be a start. No one identifies as a white evangelical or white American. We need a shared sense of identity, not a fractured one.

---

Good initial response. However the clear implication here is that many white people have not abandoned their race and even give it primacy over the gospel messages. I agree with that, by the way.

---

I disagree. I don't think whites view themselves as white. If I asked all of my fellow lay leaders what their identity is, none would mention whiteness. Nor would I. That's a big difference in self identification.

Time orientation is different in both cultures too. The black culture wants immediate justice when something happens because of their racial memory (see Trayveon referenced in the article) while the white culture is willing to give it time for facts to roll out. The black culture wants needs closure for past grievances which don't apply to whites currently alive.

That's not impossible to put aside but it's a lot to reconcile. It's a difference of belief in equity, justice, and time. We can't be split by those issues and hope to reconcile.

---

This is exhibit A of white privilege. Most white people have never HAD to consider their race. And many do while not acknowledging it as such.

---

And this is total bs. Google white privilege and see how many articles show up. And go to a college campus and look for courses on any other race than white privilege.

---

What are you trying to argue? Do you understand what I'm saying when I say white privilege? It can be reflected by white people telling black people to get over race without ever reflecting on how notions of race and whiteness built society.

---

That is not what you posted earlier. You are
Moving the goalposts. I asked questions based upon what you posted and you did not answer them but deflected.

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I'm not moving goalposts or deflecting. Perhaps I don't understand what exactly you're asking?

Every white person I know is aware of "white privilege". And you say they are not aware. What are you asking?

Woody2006 said:

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Hopefully they'll be leaving the idea of church altogether like all other demographics.

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If it is the truth it will never disappear. So it will not.

Solo Tetherball Champ said:

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TXK said:

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Solo Tetherball Champ said:

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Haven't noticed it at my church.

I think we are 30-40% black.

---

Do you think that aids the gospel mission?

---

Please elaborate, I am only able to perceive your question as if you are trying to suggest that a diverse, mixed church is somehow bad for the Gospel.

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Not suggesting anything. I'm asking.

Dr. Watson said:

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dermdoc said:

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Dr. Watson said:

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AGC said:

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TXK said:

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AGC said:

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Depends on the cause of abandonment. I read part of it earlier today and was disheartened by many of the reasons for leaving and their responses. The kingdom will be diverse but the church must pursue truth and justice on earth only where they align. One cannot abandon truth for anything else. I believe our society values individuality and by extension self proclaimed identity, so much so that many exclude themselves from truth and seek other things.

Reconciliation is a hard topic because it requires forgiveness, unconditionally, which many are loathe to give. Obliterating the idea of being a black American or black evangelical rather than an American and evangelical would be a start. No one identifies as a white evangelical or white American. We need a shared sense of identity, not a fractured one.

---

Good initial response. However the clear implication here is that many white people have not abandoned their race and even give it primacy over the gospel messages. I agree with that, by the way.

---

I disagree. I don't think whites view themselves as white. If I asked all of my fellow lay leaders what their identity is, none would mention whiteness. Nor would I. That's a big difference in self identification.

Time orientation is different in both cultures too. The black culture wants immediate justice when something happens because of their racial memory (see Trayveon referenced in the article) while the white culture is willing to give it time for facts to roll out. The black culture wants needs closure for past grievances which don't apply to whites currently alive.

That's not impossible to put aside but it's a lot to reconcile. It's a difference of belief in equity, justice, and time. We can't be split by those issues and hope to reconcile.

---

This is exhibit A of white privilege. Most white people have never HAD to consider their race. And many do while not acknowledging it as such.

---

And this is total bs. Google white privilege and see how many articles show up. And go to a college campus and look for courses on any other race than white privilege.

---

What are you trying to argue? Do you understand what I'm saying when I say white privilege? It can be reflected by white people telling black people to get over race without ever reflecting on how notions of race and whiteness built society.

---

TXK said:

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AGC said:

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TXK said:

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AGC said:

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Depends on the cause of abandonment. I read part of it earlier today and was disheartened by many of the reasons for leaving and their responses. The kingdom will be diverse but the church must pursue truth and justice on earth only where they align. One cannot abandon truth for anything else. I believe our society values individuality and by extension self proclaimed identity, so much so that many exclude themselves from truth and seek other things.

Reconciliation is a hard topic because it requires forgiveness, unconditionally, which many are loathe to give. Obliterating the idea of being a black American or black evangelical rather than an American and evangelical would be a start. No one identifies as a white evangelical or white American. We need a shared sense of identity, not a fractured one.

---

Good initial response. However the clear implication here is that many white people have not abandoned their race and even give it primacy over the gospel messages. I agree with that, by the way.

---

I disagree. I don't think whites view themselves as white. If I asked all of my fellow lay leaders what their identity is, none would mention whiteness. Nor would I. That's a big difference in self identification.

Time orientation is different in both cultures too. The black culture wants immediate justice when something happens because of their racial memory (see Trayveon referenced in the article) while the white culture is willing to give it time for facts to roll out. The black culture wants needs closure for past grievances which don't apply to whites currently alive.

That's not impossible to put aside but it's a lot to reconcile. It's a difference of belief in equity, justice, and time. We can't be split by those issues and hope to reconcile.

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That is all quite condescending. Black people have been patient above all else, frankly.

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We will have to disagree. The black middle class made great strides until the 80s and have since lost a ton of ground (not due to racism mind you). Perception of race relations between 2008 and 2016 got worse according to pew polls (other than obama exploiting several situations like Ferguson or Trayveon it's hard to envision why).

There's no condescension intended. Please be more specific as to why. Again, identity as a Christian is not a function of race (hence my revulsion at the idea of it separating Christians), and race is a construct (moreso than gender) and I could have more in common with a black person than another white person.

Dr. Watson said:

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dermdoc said:

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Dr. Watson said:

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AGC said:

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TXK said:

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AGC said:

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Depends on the cause of abandonment. I read part of it earlier today and was disheartened by many of the reasons for leaving and their responses. The kingdom will be diverse but the church must pursue truth and justice on earth only where they align. One cannot abandon truth for anything else. I believe our society values individuality and by extension self proclaimed identity, so much so that many exclude themselves from truth and seek other things.

Reconciliation is a hard topic because it requires forgiveness, unconditionally, which many are loathe to give. Obliterating the idea of being a black American or black evangelical rather than an American and evangelical would be a start. No one identifies as a white evangelical or white American. We need a shared sense of identity, not a fractured one.

---

Good initial response. However the clear implication here is that many white people have not abandoned their race and even give it primacy over the gospel messages. I agree with that, by the way.

---

I disagree. I don't think whites view themselves as white. If I asked all of my fellow lay leaders what their identity is, none would mention whiteness. Nor would I. That's a big difference in self identification.

Time orientation is different in both cultures too. The black culture wants immediate justice when something happens because of their racial memory (see Trayveon referenced in the article) while the white culture is willing to give it time for facts to roll out. The black culture wants needs closure for past grievances which don't apply to whites currently alive.

That's not impossible to put aside but it's a lot to reconcile. It's a difference of belief in equity, justice, and time. We can't be split by those issues and hope to reconcile.

---

This is exhibit A of white privilege. Most white people have never HAD to consider their race. And many do while not acknowledging it as such.

---

And this is total bs. Google white privilege and see how many articles show up. And go to a college campus and look for courses on any other race than white privilege.

---

What are you trying to argue? Do you understand what I'm saying when I say white privilege? It can be reflected by white people telling black people to get over race without ever reflecting on how notions of race and whiteness built society.

---

Whiteness is an arbitrary construct as several 'white' countries have distinctly different cultures. There's no overarching whiteness.

TXK said:

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Doc Daneeka said:

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The cause of the abandonment is their politics. You can't be progressives and Christian at the same time.

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First, that is not factual by any means. Second, if you've read the article, they show how it's the church's refusal to abandon politics as being the main touchstone.

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I don't need to read the article. The vast majority of blacks who are Christian vote for liberal policies. Overtime the rationalizing of their votes has ruined their religious convictions.

EOT

TXK said:

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Solo Tetherball Champ said:

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TXK said:

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Solo Tetherball Champ said:

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Haven't noticed it at my church.

I think we are 30-40% black.

---

Do you think that aids the gospel mission?

---

Please elaborate, I am only able to perceive your question as if you are trying to suggest that a diverse, mixed church is somehow bad for the Gospel.

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Not suggesting anything. I'm asking.

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Why wouldn't it?

I attend the church my wife grew up in We are active participants in the church my wife grew up in. She is one of the people in charge of the Nursery. I am an usher and children's Sunday school teacher.

I help teach the children with:

• a Black man and his white wife (the wife is the head of the children's church)
• A Singaporian man and his white wife
• Hispanic Man who is married to a white woman
• A Black woman with a white husband (who just passed his police officer exam)
• Black couple
• White couples

Regarding Ushers:

• Our head Usher is black
• We have multiple black, hispanic, and white men as ushers

I've never seen any issues arise from it. All of those people have different income and educational levels. Our kids represent all colors of the earth. The only major divide that I see within the children (and teenaged groups) is not due to race, but due to closer friendships between the children who attend the churches private school and those who do not. As someone who attended a church that primarily featured students of another school district, I can completely understand and relate.

While I'm not to say that my church is completely devoid of any racial tensions, I have not seen nor heard of any in the past five years.

This is a picture of what the church should be.

TXK said:

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Doc Daneeka said:

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The cause of the abandonment is their politics. You can't be progressives and Christian at the same time.

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First, that is not factual by any means. Second, if you've read the article, they show how it's the church's refusal to abandon politics as being the main touchstone.

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It is true.

I read the article. It didn't say that.

I finally read the whole article which I should have done before knee jerk comments. I went to a "moderate" Baptist Church for years because it was the one I was born into and had great people in the congregation. The pastor, who is a dear friend of mine, was pretty liberal and very outspoken on political and racial matters. And this was with a congregation that was 99% white. So it goes both ways as far as political leanings.

We now go to a non denominational church where politics are never mentioned. We are much happier. There is enough politics and pettiness in churches without injecting national politics into the equation imho.

And edited to add my new Church is much more diverse than my old one.

So what is your point? Are you using examples of those on the far left to try and make the point that it doesn't exist at all?

Why is this even surprising to anyone? When your politics is based on eroding traditional values it's obvious over time religious values would be eroded.