There is not enough water in the atmosphere to flood the world. It's just a fairy tale.

MidTnAg said:

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There is not enough water in the atmosphere to flood the world. It's just a fairy tale.

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You're assuming that the world today is exactly as it was back then.

Also, water came from underground not just from the heavens.

There is a mountain of evidence against a great flood. There's a reason scientists abandoned it early within the advent of modern science.

There is quite a bit written on this already, so instead of rehashing it I will post some links. I want to declare that I do not support everything associated with the group behind the link, but the information in the articles posted is good.


No One Knows the Day or the Hour

This also depicts ancient marriage practices.


Wedding


I completely disagree with concept of inserting the church in the last article, but it gives you the picture.

This is why it is so important to be following God's schedule, following God's moedim (festivals). Are you going to be the virgin who has no oil?

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What is your view/opinion on Matthew 24:36-44?

Matthew 24:36-44 English Standard Version (ESV)
No One Knows That Day and Hour
36 "But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. 37 For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left. 42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.


In Noah's time, the people were so oblivious to the coming flood; I'm sure some of them had been warned. yet they were incredibly lax and nonchalant about it; to the point, they didn't get on the ark and perished in the flood. I'm sure they were surprised when the rain didn't let up.

Same with Christ's coming. The believers will be in the new "ark." Everyone else, sad to say, will be caught in the new "flood."

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My view is no different than what I posted above. People gather with this passage that the Messiah will come back like a thief (surprise), yet 1 Thessalonians 5 says "But you, brothers and sisters, are not in the dark, so that the Day might overtake you like a thief."

So which is it? How do you reconcile these two passages?

This is a very detailed explanation, please take the time to read it and understand it. Pray about it. Ask God to show you the truth.

Yeshua is mentioning the day in vs 42 and the hour in vs 44, in addition to mentioning both in v36. Based on the articles I posted above, this is why Rosh Hashana / Yom Teruah is a two day festival. Technically, it is one day, but no one knows the day or the hour. Also, those who lived far from Jerusalem would not immediately know the declaration of sanctifying the new moon.

The parables after this give insight.

The faithful servant is the one doing what God said to do. His commandments. Those who don't do what he commanded, the day will come like a thief in the night b/c they have become lax.

The parable of the ten virgins is the same. It is important to know what the oil represents in a Hebraic mindset.

Exodus 35:4-5, 8 - Moses also said to all the congregation of Bnei-Yisrael, "This is the word which Adonai commanded saying: 5 Take from among you an offering for Adonai. Whoever has a willing heart, let him bring Adonai's offering: 8 oil for the light...

Exodus 39:32:33,37 - Bnei-Yisrael did everything according to what Adonai had commanded Mosesthey did it just so. 33 Then they brought the Tabernacle to Moses......37 the pure menorah with its lamps to be set in order, along with all of its utensils, and oil for the light;

So they were to WILLINGLY bring these items and oil for the light. This phrase oil for the light occurs 5 times in Scripture, which 5 is a number for the bride or woman.

Isaiah 42 speaks about the future Messiah who is the light. verse 6 - "I, Adonai, called You in righteousness,
I will take hold of Your hand,I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people, as a light to the nations,

We know Yeshua spoke about being that light in John 8, 9, and 12.

We also know the Torah is a light:

Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path. Psalm 119:105

For the mitzvah is a lamp, Torah a light, and corrective discipline the way of life, Proverbs 6:23

The light of the righteous shines brightly. The lamp of the wicked is snuffed out. Provebs 13:9

Here we see that the Word is both the Lamp, and the Light. Then we see that the Commandment the Word of God is the Lamp, but walking in obedience to the Torah, living out the Torah in our daily lives, is the Living Word, or the Light produced by the Lamp.

So the obedience that results in Light is simply the obedience of "Messiah-in-us," by His own strength, as we allow Him to keep the Torah in our daily lives.

We see in these passages that if we walk in His Light, and in His obedience, that His Righteousness in us becomes our Light.

This finding of the Light gives us an astonishing new definition, of exactly what it means to "Believe on" and to "Follow" Yeshua, as seen in John 8:12 and John 12:46. If we truly "Believe" Yeshua, and truly "Follow" Him, then we are allowing Him-in-us to provide our "Light" allowing us to keep the Torah.

The Messiah the light which is the Word - Torah. This is why in John 1:1 we are told the Word - Torah was made flesh.

Back to the oil in the lamp....

Proverbs 21:20 - Precious treasure and oil are in a wise person's dwelling, but a foolish person devours all he has.

Oil and wise are connected.

Psalm 104:14-15 - He (God) causes grass to spring up for the cattle, and vegetation for man to cultivate, to bring forth bread out of the earth, 15 wine that makes man's heart glad, oil to make his face shine, and bread that sustains man's heart.

Ecclesiastes 8:1 - Who is like the wise person? Who knows the meaning of a matter? A person's wisdom makes his face shine, transforming the harshness of his face.

God is the one who brings forth the Oil that makes man's face to shine. But in the next passage, we are told that it is Wisdom that makes man's face to shine. Is this a Bible contradiction?

These two passages together reveal to us that the Oil that makes man's face to shine is indeed the Wisdom that Yeshua brings forth in man. Our conclusion is that the Oil that allows the Lamps to provide Light is WISDOM.

Ecclesiastes 13:1 - Wisdom is more beneficial than folly as light is better than darkness.

Wisdom and light is contrasted with folly and darkness.

Are the commandments of God wisdom?

Deuteronomy 4:5-6 - "See, just as Adonai my God commanded me, I have taught you statutes and ordinances to do in the land that you are about to enter to possess. 6 You must keep and do them, for it is your wisdom and understanding in the eyes of the peoples, who will hear all these statutes and say, 'Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.'

Job 28:28 - And He said to mankind, 'The fear of the Lordthat is wisdom, and to turn away from evil is understanding.

Psalm 111:10 - The fear of Adonai is the beginning of wisdom. All who follow His precepts have good understanding. His praise endures forever!

Psalm 112:1 - Halleluyah! Happy is the man who fears Adonai, who delights greatly in His mitzvot (commandments).

Proverbs 9:10 - The fear of Adonai is the beginning of wisdom and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

Wisdom is the fear of Adonai and which is related keeping the commandments.

How do we show that we fear God? Keeping the Shabbat and the commandments:

Ezekiel 20:12 - I also gave them My Shabbatot, as a sign between Me and them, so that they would know that I am Adonai who made them holy.

Ibid; 19-20 - I am Adonai your God. Walk in My statutes, keep My ordinances and do them. 20 Keep My Shabbatot holy, so they will be a sign between Me and you, that you may know that I am Adonai your God.'

So it is through God who keeps us holy and walking out His commandments tells people about God.

1 Corinthians 1:30 - But because of Him you are in Messiah Yeshua, who became to us wisdom from God and righteousness and holiness and redemption

So we see in the above passage that, not only is Yeshua our righteousness, sanctification, and our redemption but He is also our wisdom.

It is Messiah, living in us, who provides the Grace the ability to keep the Commandments of God and so we continue to acquire wisdom in accordance with the requirements of keeping them and doing them, as seen in Deuteronomy 4:5-6, which requirements have not changed. Thus we see again that it is "Messiah-in-us" who is the source of the Light. But notice what eventually happened:

Matthew 25:8 - Now the foolish ones said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil, since our lamps are going out.'

It is like the seed parable, some seed sprouted up (started following God) but quickly withered. They received bad teaching. They let their flame go out, they lost their saltiness.

But after the seed of righteousness sprouted within them, the foolish virgins heard some bad teaching, which affected their actions. By believing and embracing this false teaching, they actually prevented "Messiah-in-them" from growing from living in obedience to the same commandments Messiah kept 2,000 years ago, when He lived in His own flesh. Because this false teaching had convinced the foolish virgins to forsake the Torah, their actions were now considered wicked according to God. Notice the result of forsaking the Torah, seen in the following passages:

Psalm 119:53 - Burning indignation grips me, because of the wicked who forsake Your Torah.
Proverbs 13:9 - The light of the righteous shines brightly. The lamp of the wicked is snuffed out.

In the above pair of passages, we see a vivid illustration of the result of forsaking the keeping of God's Torah. Here we see the result: The lamp of those that forsake God's Torah will go out it will be extinguished! The fulfillment of this Proverbs passage is seen in the Foolish Virgins.

I have quoted Mattehw 7:23 many times in the past, but here it is so important:

Matthew 7:21-23 - "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord!' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in Your name, and drive out demons in Your name, and perform many miracles in Your name?' 23 Then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you. Get away from Me, you workers of lawlessness!'"


After they were born again, and perhaps filled with the Holy Spirit, the foolish virgins' lamps eventually went out. They were now considered wicked by their actions.

The foolish virgins were initially given the measure of grace, but they did not grow in grace, which is given to all men for the purpose of obedience (Romans 1:5). Perhaps because of their doctrines, they trusted in the grace they were once given, but did not cease the behaviour defined in Scripture as wicked: they had forsaken the Torah (See Psalms 119:53).

This grace for obedience is given to all, that we might be able to keep the Torah. Without His grace for obedience, we would be just like the Israelites, who fell in the wilderness because of their disobedience to the Torah. We are told that the Israelites who fell in the Wilderness are examples for us, and are for our warning (1Corinthians 10:11; Hebrews 3:12; 4:1, 11).

At one time, when they had first received Messiah, the foolish virgins had oil, and their lamps provided light. This light was their wisdom and understanding, and was in plain view of the nations. But now the light of the foolish virgins had gone out. Their lamps remained, but there was no light to be seen. So, what do the foolish virgins do next?

Matthew 9:9-10 - But the wise ones replied, 'No, there won't be enough for us and for you. Instead, go to those who sell, and buy some for yourselves.'10 "But while they were going off to buy, the bridegroom came. And those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast, and the door was shut.

Proverbs 17:16 - Of what use is money in the hand of a fool since he has no intention of acquiring wisdom?

The Hebrew words in the above passage are very revealing. The Hebrew word mechir meaning "buying price, worth, gain or hire," is seen in the above verse as a "purchase price" of wisdom. This word appears 15 times in Scripture. The number "15" in Scripture speaks prophetically of "rest" and of "My Sabbaths."

The Hebrew word for get used in the passage above can have many meanings, including "buy, get, or purchase." Likewise, the Hebrew word for heart used in the passage above has additional meanings of "understanding and inclination." Thus from the root meanings of the Hebrew words in Proverbs 17:16, we see the above passage can be read alternately as:

"Why is there a purchase-price in the hand of a 'foolish one' to buy wisdom, since he has no heart no understanding nor inclination on his own?"

So we see from the many related Scriptures, that the oil for the lamps is speaking of Wisdom that is lacking among those that are foolish.

The foolish virgins had a genuine desire to go with the Bridegroom to the wedding. Yet they did not have the heart or inclination to follow Yeshua wherever He went.

Yeshua Himself kept all the commandments, precepts, and ordinances of God. But the foolish virgins refused to allow Yeshua and all the disciples, to be their example, as we are told in Scripture.

The foolish virgins had been influenced by the popular theologians and their twisted doctrines of sin, law, and grace, twisted beyond recognition of all of Scripture. They had become convinced that they no longer needed to keep the commandments, statutes and judgments of God. So while the foolish virgins were out to buy their oil, noticed what happened:

Mattehw 25:11-12 - Now later, the other virgins came, saying, 'Sir, Sir, open up for us!'
12 "But he replied, 'Amen, I tell you, I do not know you.' 13 Therefore stay alert, for you know neither the day nor the hour."

I don't know you? Matthew 7:23. They were the ones not following the commandments.

It is only by abiding in Yeshua that we truly know Him. But it is only by keeping Torah that we abide in Him. If we transgress the Torah (sin) we can NOT know Him.

Romans 2:13 - For it is not the hearers of Torah who are righteous before God; rather, it is the doers of Torah who will be justified.

1 John 3:6 - No one who abides in Him keeps on sinning; no one who sins has seen Him or known Him.

1 John 3:24 - The one who keeps His commandments abides in God, and God in him. We know that He abides in us by thisby the Spirit He has given us.

The wise virgins had oil in their lamps. The wise virgins had wisdom. The foolish virgins, on the other hand, had no oil in their lamps. They had no wisdom.

One more proof that Wisdom is Torah - read all of Proverbs 8. The Torah is better than gold and silver.
The Torah was brought forth before creation.

Proverbs 8:32-36 - "So now, children, listen to me! Blessed are those who keep my ways. 33 Heed discipline and be wise, and do not neglect it. 34 Blessed is the one who listens to me, watching daily at my gates,
waiting at my doorposts. 35 For whoever finds me finds life and obtains favor from Adonai. 36 But whoever fails to find me harms his lifeall who hate me love death."

Wisdom is Torah. Blessed are you for keeping it. May it be so...

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What I find most interesting is Christ referenced Noah and the great flood. How can a Christian question the flood when our savior talked about it?
The majority of the flood water came up from the earth, it had never rained before Noah's time.
so that was an awakening in itself.

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Wait, what? The water cycle didn't exist before Noah? How did rivers get their source?

Daniel 9:25 "So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks.."

This worked the first time. Why not the second?

Balfour Decree November 1917

Of course we'll be long gone by then, so not so interesting to folks.




Also, right, wrong or indifferent, I prophesy there will be great gobs of people "freaking out" about End Times stuff in 12-15 years. Why? Do the math. That's 2030 - 2033; 2000 years after Yeshua "came" in His public ministry and was "cut off" by hanging on the tree. I suspect this one might even be bad enough to have a measurable mark on the economy. Remember, you heard it here first.

FriscoTxAggie said:

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Wait, what? The water cycle didn't exist before Noah? How did rivers get their source?

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My best guess is when God created the heavens and earth, He did so with the oceans & rivers full of water. Scientists have also discovered large bodies of water deep within the earth. I see more proof that there was a Great Flood about 4400 years ago versus no flood at all.

According to a controversial theory proposed by two Columbia University scientists, they believe that the now-salty Black Sea was once an isolated freshwater lake surrounded by farmland, until it was flooded by an enormous wall of water from the rising Mediterranean Sea. The force of the water was two hundred times that of Niagara Falls, sweeping away everything in its path.

Fascinated by the idea, Ballard and his team decided to investigate.

"We went in there to look for the flood," he said. "Not just a slow moving, advancing rise of sea level, but a really big flood that then stayed... The land that went under stayed under."

Four hundred feet below the surface, they unearthed an ancient shoreline, proof to Ballard that a catastrophic event did happen in the Black Sea. By carbon dating shells found along the shoreline, Ballard said he believes they have established a timeline for that catastrophic event, which he estimates happened around 5,000 BC. Some experts believe this was around the time when Noah's flood could have occurred.

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Not to derail this into another flood/no-flood thread because there are more than enough of them here, but I can't let this stand.
I'm assuming you are referring to this: http://www.columbia.edu/cu/pr/00/09/blacksea.html

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Four years ago, Columbia University marine geologists William B.F. Ryan and Walter C. Pitman 3rd inspired a wave of archaeological and other scientific interest in the Black Sea region with geologic and climate evidence that a catastrophic flood 7,600 years ago destroyed an ancient civilization that played a pivotal role in the spread of early farming into Europe and much of Asia.

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Drs. Ryan and Pitman argued their provocative theory in a 1999 book, "Noah's Flood: The New Scientific Discoveries About the Event That Changed History" (Simon & Schuster). Ryan and Pitman theorized that the sealed Bosporus strait, which acted as a dam between the Mediterranean and Black seas, broke open when climatic warming at the close of the last glacial period caused icecaps to melt, raising the global sea level.

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Also see: https://www.whoi.edu/oceanus/feature/noahs-not-so-big-flood

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When Earth's last ice age waned, water frozen into vast ice sheets melted and returned to the ocean, elevating sea levels. About 9,400 years ago, Mediterranean waters rose above the dam, reconnecting the two seas. They surged over the now submerged Bosphorus Sill with the force of 200 Niagara Falls, according to a controversial theory proposed in 1997 by Columbia University marine geologists Bill Ryan and Walter Pitman.

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Now, a new study in the January 2009 issue of Quaternary Science Reviews suggests that if the flood occurred at all, it was much smallerhardly of biblical proportions. Liviu Giosan of Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution (WHOI) and Florin Filip and Stefan Constantinescu of the University of Bucharest found evidence that Black Lake/Sea water levels rose only 5 to 10 meters around 9,400 years ago, not 50 to 60 meters as Ryan and his colleagues proposed. The flood would have drowned only about 2,000 square kilometers of land (about half of Rhode Island), rather than 70,000 square kilometers (more than the entire state of West Virginia).

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Combining the more precise dating technique with a more reliable sea-level marker, the researchers could be confident and conclude that the "Black Lake" water level at the time of the flood was around 30not 80meters lower than present, and the flood raised the level by only 5 to 10not 50 to 60meters.

A more modest flood "still could have put an area of 2,000 square kilometers of prime agricultural land in the Danube delta under water, which has important implications for the archaeology and anthropology of Europe," Giosan said. But was it enough to prompt an ark?

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I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you did not intentionally misstate the Columbia University findings to help prove your belief.