Discuss.
Brian Earl Spilner said:
Discuss.
RPag said:
Free will is an illusion. It stems from a deeper illusion of the self; the idea that 'you' are someone pulling the levers inside a body. That is fundamentally false. This is available for anyone to see with a little bit of self inspection. Thoughts are springing up from a source that is ultimately mysterious to you. For example, if I asked you to think of a person in history and you say, for instance JFK, you cannot explain why you did not say FDR or Ghengis Khan. It sprung from a place you cannot control. And this is true for any and all thoughts you have. You are not pulling a lever; there's not even a lever to be seen.
RPag said:
His book on free will was an incredible read.
This makes our justice system completely unjust.TexAgs91 said:
No.
Let's say you believe free will does exist. Are you free to change your mind and now decide that it doesn't exist? You're probably thinking that you could decide whichever way you want, but you have chosen to believe that it does exist because of certain reasons.
hint: those reasons are what determines your "choice" so you really don't have a choice in what you believe. You are deterministic.
So then you're thinking you know these reasons, I know these reasons, but we chose differently. That's because in your upbringing, you've had experiences that make these reasons weigh more in your decision making than they do in mine. I've had experiences that make other reasons weigh more in my decision making. Again... deterministic.
So again, the question is, can you change your mind and honestly believe that free will doesn't exist despite any reasoning you have? Can you make a choice that you freely choose to make without anything determining that choice?
Perhaps this is hard anyways because of the paradox it brings up: Choosing to believe free will doesn't exist to show that it does.
Fine: Choose your favorite band. Can you choose to hate them?
Consider #4, safety.dds08 said:
I like Stephen Covey and his 7 habits deal.
Everyone needs these things:
1. Direction & Self-Management (Creativity - Right brain - Effectiveness & Efficiency - Left brain)
2. Knowledge & Wisdom & Skill
3. Power & Strength
4. Safety
The Lord gives all these things and more.
Not everyone consciously thinks about all these things though.
Woody2006 said:RPag said:
His book on free will was an incredible read.
The longer I've paid attention to him the less interesting I've found him.
Yes, I forgot this one that also always comes up whenever we have this discussion. (this thread should be a sticky). The consequences of our justice system is also an input to decision making, so it is still a deterrent and it is reasonable to punish someone for violating a law.Martin Q. Blank said:This makes our justice system completely unjust.TexAgs91 said:
No.
Let's say you believe free will does exist. Are you free to change your mind and now decide that it doesn't exist? You're probably thinking that you could decide whichever way you want, but you have chosen to believe that it does exist because of certain reasons.
hint: those reasons are what determines your "choice" so you really don't have a choice in what you believe. You are deterministic.
So then you're thinking you know these reasons, I know these reasons, but we chose differently. That's because in your upbringing, you've had experiences that make these reasons weigh more in your decision making than they do in mine. I've had experiences that make other reasons weigh more in my decision making. Again... deterministic.
So again, the question is, can you change your mind and honestly believe that free will doesn't exist despite any reasoning you have? Can you make a choice that you freely choose to make without anything determining that choice?
Perhaps this is hard anyways because of the paradox it brings up: Choosing to believe free will doesn't exist to show that it does.
Fine: Choose your favorite band. Can you choose to hate them?
Quote:
I don't think free will is possible in a universe created by an omnipotent and omniscient deity, however I also don't think we live in such a universe.
I don't think free will exists, but we cannot tell whether God controlled an event or not so it's the same as having free will from our perspective. Add in the command that we live like we have free will, and it becomes a moot point.
Why is it reasonable if they didn't have a choice to do the crime?TexAgs91 said:Yes, I forgot this one that also always comes up whenever we have this discussion. (this thread should be a sticky). The consequences of our justice system is also an input to decision making, so it is still a deterrent and it is reasonable to punish someone for violating a law.Martin Q. Blank said:This makes our justice system completely unjust.TexAgs91 said:
No.
Let's say you believe free will does exist. Are you free to change your mind and now decide that it doesn't exist? You're probably thinking that you could decide whichever way you want, but you have chosen to believe that it does exist because of certain reasons.
hint: those reasons are what determines your "choice" so you really don't have a choice in what you believe. You are deterministic.
So then you're thinking you know these reasons, I know these reasons, but we chose differently. That's because in your upbringing, you've had experiences that make these reasons weigh more in your decision making than they do in mine. I've had experiences that make other reasons weigh more in my decision making. Again... deterministic.
So again, the question is, can you change your mind and honestly believe that free will doesn't exist despite any reasoning you have? Can you make a choice that you freely choose to make without anything determining that choice?
Perhaps this is hard anyways because of the paradox it brings up: Choosing to believe free will doesn't exist to show that it does.
Fine: Choose your favorite band. Can you choose to hate them?
Martin Q. Blank said:Why is it reasonable if they didn't have a choice to do the crime?TexAgs91 said:Yes, I forgot this one that also always comes up whenever we have this discussion. (this thread should be a sticky). The consequences of our justice system is also an input to decision making, so it is still a deterrent and it is reasonable to punish someone for violating a law.Martin Q. Blank said:This makes our justice system completely unjust.TexAgs91 said:
No.
Let's say you believe free will does exist. Are you free to change your mind and now decide that it doesn't exist? You're probably thinking that you could decide whichever way you want, but you have chosen to believe that it does exist because of certain reasons.
hint: those reasons are what determines your "choice" so you really don't have a choice in what you believe. You are deterministic.
So then you're thinking you know these reasons, I know these reasons, but we chose differently. That's because in your upbringing, you've had experiences that make these reasons weigh more in your decision making than they do in mine. I've had experiences that make other reasons weigh more in my decision making. Again... deterministic.
So again, the question is, can you change your mind and honestly believe that free will doesn't exist despite any reasoning you have? Can you make a choice that you freely choose to make without anything determining that choice?
Perhaps this is hard anyways because of the paradox it brings up: Choosing to believe free will doesn't exist to show that it does.
Fine: Choose your favorite band. Can you choose to hate them?
So what's the difference?k2aggie07 said:
I don't think what you're describing is determinism.
You're describing causality. They're related but not identical.
then you have free will.Quote:
If you decide
What is a decision and how do you make it?Martin Q. Blank said:then you have free will.Quote:
If you decide
LOL Brilliant. Parachute into the R&P board, start a thread on free will and leave.Brian Earl Spilner said:
Discuss.
We know right and wrong are not meaningless. I'd be happy to hit you in the face until you agree.TexAgs91 said:
So the reason that there is free will is because if there isn't then right and wrong are meaningless. Seems like that's the consequence (which is debatable), not the reason.
dds08 said:
I like Stephen Covey and his 7 habits deal.
Everyone (every being) needs these things:
1. Direction(creativity / right brain / effectiveness) & Self-Management (efficiency / left brain)
2. Knowledge & Wisdom & Skill
3. Power & Strength
4. Safety
The Lord gives all these things and more to every being.
Not everyone consciously thinks about all these things though.