amercer said:

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Ha.

I would really like to come up with a good experiment though. I'm not a dualist, I see no evidence of the supernatural, but the world still doesn't seem deterministic.

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Matter probably doesn't seem like mostly empty space either.

Maybe only Canadians have free will?

TexAgs91 said:

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amercer said:

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Ha.

I would really like to come up with a good experiment though. I'm not a dualist, I see no evidence of the supernatural, but the world still doesn't seem deterministic.

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Matter probably doesn't seem like mostly empty space either.

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It's not empty. It's a frothing sea of energy.

dargscisyhp said:

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Quote:

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If I say "I can't choose to hate my favorite band" you say "determinism! "

If I say "I chose to hate my favorite band " you say "something made you do it, determinism! "

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This is consistent with the central thesis of the wise philosopher Geddy Lee where he claims that if he chooses not to decide he still has made a choice in his seminal work titled Free Will.

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The diversity of decisions made by people when an obvious external force is absent. People living under oppressive governments do what they are told. Those in free societies do a nearly infinite number of things.

AstroAg17 said:

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The brain is a chaotic system. Small changes in initial conditions can have large effects. What's confusing about that? Besides, experience plays a huge role in decision making, and no two people have had the same experiences.

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How does that universe look different than one with free will?

amercer said:

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The diversity of decisions made by people when an obvious external force is absent. People living under oppressive governments do what they are told. Those in free societies do a nearly infinite number of things.

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There's internal forces too... like Dopamine, Norepinephrine and Serotonin that makes people do crazy things.

AstroAg17 said:

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I've always loved the phrase "nearly infinite".

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Some people don't believe in true infinities. It does make certain philosophical problems go away.

It's not testable. You can't objectively measure the magnitude of a particular inputs influence on a decision. This is why it is largely philosophical and not answered by science.

TexAgs91 said:

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amercer said:

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The diversity of decisions made by people when an obvious external force is absent. People living under oppressive governments do what they are told. Those in free societies do a nearly infinite number of things.

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There's internal forces too... like Dopamine, Norepinephrine and Serotonin that makes people do crazy things.

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BUT ther is an internal dialogue where one may act a certain way but verbal expressing a desire not to.... one who can act upon their values and deny themselves temptations, has exercised free will.

bmks270 said:

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It's not testable. You can't objectively measure the magnitude of a particular inputs influence on a decision. This is why it is largely philosophical and not answered by science.

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Presumably at some point we'll be able to build a human brain in a lab (or in a computer) . So it might be testable.

I do feel like there is something to be learned on the subject from the actions of populations in different circumstances. I'm just not sure what question to ask.

I will concede that I've wanted to turn this football game off for the last two hours, and yet I'm still watching it, so -1 point for free will.

bmks270 said:

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It's not testable. You can't objectively measure the magnitude of a particular inputs influence on a decision. This is why it is largely philosophical and not answered by science.

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Careful. You can prove a positive.
http://discovermagazine.com/2004/apr/whose-life-would-you-save

I think it's the ability to contemplate a choice before making it.

bmks270 said:

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TexAgs91 said:

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amercer said:

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The diversity of decisions made by people when an obvious external force is absent. People living under oppressive governments do what they are told. Those in free societies do a nearly infinite number of things.

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There's internal forces too... like Dopamine, Norepinephrine and Serotonin that makes people do crazy things.

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BUT ther is an internal dialogue where one may act a certain way but verbal expressing a desire not to.... one who can act upon their values and deny themselves temptations, has exercised free will.

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Nope. See the Discover article I posted in my other response.

I'd recommend this article for others on this thread as well. Very interesting...
http://discovermagazine.com/2004/apr/whose-life-would-you-save

I don't think contemplate is enough. I can have a computer contemplate a choice. It needs to be a non-deterministic, non random choice and sufficiently uncoarced decision.

If you think about what a creature or machine with libertarian free will would look like I don't see how you don't run a blank. Setting up a reflective process that evaluates input, is changed by the input and makes choices seems more than doable, in fact we have done it to a modest degree. But to have something like free will as an emergent phenomena seems to require magic.

But I concede I'm working off way incomplete info. We simply don't understand consciousness, which is why an impressive AI is stupid far away.

I think this is basically something where a person with any sense of humility simply shrugs.

We just don't know enough to have any idea definitively for a dualist or pure materialist perspective based on scientific observation. The past century alone should provide sufficient evidence for this on both sides.

It's an article of faith either way, which is fine. What's annoying is the tendency for materialists to use words like "magic" and pretend their way is a defined system.

Also, I think free will may be in some way linked to what we observe as inconsistency. Accordingly, inconsistent mathematics may be a good avenue for characterizing such a thing. But inconsistency and traditional experimental design don't really mix.

If that's the definition of magic then there are a lot of modern aspects of physics that fall right in.

I like how compulsiveness and impulsiveness seem to end at surrender.




Once surrender happens, faith begins! Someone else is driving then.




I dunno how free will and freedom are any more or less talked about when it comes to impulses. Something firing like a synapse or an emotion/feeling dictating an action.

For one to experience powerlessness, all one has to do is admit being powerless!

Aggrad08 said:

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I don't think contemplate is enough. I can have a computer contemplate a choice. It needs to be a non-deterministic, non random choice and sufficiently uncoarced decision.

If you think about what a creature or machine with libertarian free will would look like I don't see how you don't run a blank. Setting up a reflective process that evaluates input, is changed by the input and makes choices seems more than doable, in fact we have done it to a modest degree. But to have something like free will as an emergent phenomena seems to require magic.

But I concede I'm working off way incomplete info. We simply don't understand consciousness, which is why an impressive AI is stupid far away.

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I agree with what you said about computers. They can "contemplate a choice". I think when we contemplate a choice it's not as easy to follow the steps of how you came to a conclusion as a computer is, but it's the same idea.

And yea, when you stop and think about what "free will" really means, you're thinking about a person will who makes decisions completely disconnected from existing facts, brain structure and chemistry and sensory inputs. Is that even desirable? And do you know anyone like that including yourself?

The Lord practices His faith on us by hoping that we will choose a relationship with him, yet, unfortunately, not everyone chooses to have a relationship with him.

He can hope too.

He can love.

He can choose to not know and know all together.

dds08 said:

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For one to experience powerlessness, all one has to do is admit being powerless!

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I've seen a lot of little dogs that have no idea they're powerless. Nevertheless, they experience it.

dds08 said:

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The Lord practices His faith on us by hoping that we will choose a relationship with him, yet, unfortunately, not everyone chooses to have a relationship with him.

He can hope too.

He can love.

He can choose to not know and know all together.

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I see the thread derailer has found us.

This is a good example though. dds08 is predetermined to make only these types of posts.

Mysterious and supernatural are subject to whatever definitions you apply to natural.

Is dark matter / dark energy natural?