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Are you saying '2' doesn't have a definition? Is it up for personal preference, like preferring ketchup over mustard?

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Are you saying wizard has an objective definition? You keep running toward the problems in nominalsim while doing nothing to address the glaring issues in your own view

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This is a nice summary of the Catholic position . But, for the OP, we aren't to the point of discussing being itself, with its mind.

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Well then we are done discussing the point of argument if youn are not going to address this.

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Again, a good nod to the Catholic position, but I would ask- are you claiming the laws of physics didn't exist before humans?

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The real thing no, it exists independent. As we attempt to describe and approximate them yes.are you saying elves exist independent of human thought?

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Good folks get perfect bodies and communion with God

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Body and soul are united in one person. Death is the unnatural separation of body and soul. Those united to Christ will one day be resurrected to eternal glory. Those not will be judged for what they did in this life and condemned to eternal hell.

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This doesn't make any sense to me. So, a person, who is "united to Christ," will end up on some other planet and have eternal glory. The rest of us will end up on some other planet and will be condemned to eternal hell.

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Any conjecture regarding an after-life is mere speculation, supported by absolutely nothing.

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To me, this is more realistic.

Seems like a lot of people believe that we have a soul inside us and when we die, it is somehow separated from our dead body.

I just don't see it. To me, this is just wishful thinking.

Explain to me: what is our soul, where is it stored in our body, what information does it contain, what process separates it from us, where does it go, what process is used to reunite it back with our body?

Pro Sandy said:

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MidTnAg said:

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What do most Christians believe is resurrected?

If a person has a deformity (e.g., no left arm), do they get a new left arm after death?

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It is in a glorified form and there will be no more sickness or corruption. I wouldn't think there would be deformities. Granted Jesus still has his piercings, but he can also walk through walls.

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I still consider this to be wishful thinking. You are going to put millions of people on some far away planet for billions of years and think everyone will be given a perfect body and there will never be any sickness or corruption? WOW!

itburns2018 said:

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At least for the time being, we don't have anything definitive. There are always the unverifiable reports of children having "memories" from a past life, or people learning things that they supposedly would have no way of knowing after a near-death experience.

I'm Catholic, so I like to believe in an afterlife, I have hope that I'll get to spend an eternity with my wife communing with the big guy (gal?) upstairs, but I'm also a scientist who realizes that at the end of the day, you're primarily four different elements in various conformations (carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, and nitrogen). Humans have an innate inability to understand death, and we try to rationalize it as best we can, typically with some thought of a happy ending afterwards. However, as far as we're concerned for the time being, those are all just hopes based on a fear of nothingness.

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That would be nice and I hope you get your wish. To me, since it is unverifiable, afterlife is just wishful thinking. Most people rationalize to verify their unverifiable beliefs.

You are asking posters on here to rewrite books that have been written and read for centuries.

MidTnAg said:

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Seems like a lot of people believe that we have a soul inside us and when we die, it is somehow separated from our dead body.

I just don't see it. To me, this is just wishful thinking.

Explain to me: what is our soul, where is it stored in our body, what information does it contain, what process separates it from us, where does it go, what process is used to reunite it back with our body?

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You still seem unable or unwilling to think about something outside of space and time. Again, if a spirit, mind, soul, or whatever is OUTSIDE of space and time, then it is inaccurate to use words like 'stored in'.

Here's another tack...

Your name is MidTnAg. You have a personality. You have preferences. You have a history. You probably claim to have rights and exist.

What is MidTnAg? Does he/she exist? Is he/she just a material composite of cells? What about the skin cells you dump off within the next second? Are they MidTnAg? When you cut hair, is that MidTnAg? Time changes MidTnAg, but is that still MidTnAg? What if you are unconscious?

The concept, the person of MidTnAg exists. You are more than your material makeup. The question and answers you seek can be found in thinking on what makes MidTnAg more than the material. In order to claim you have any ability to make decisions, you must believe there is an aspect that is beyond the material, not caught in the chain of cause/effect within the material, or else it wouldn't actually be making decisions, but just chemically/physically reacting to pre-existing conditions.

Now, as I stated before, if you start to deny that you are anything beyond the material, then you have no more rights than a rock. And you also, to be intellectually honest, must realize that then rape, slavery, murder are unable to be claimed as wrong or evil, and should not be punished.

If you are honest, and take this position, realize that you will not be popular with others . Also, you'll be wrong .

k2aggie07 said:

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You are asking posters on here to rewrite books that have been written and read for centuries.

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True, but...

it's fun to talk about in our own amateur-ish words so we can interact with others and harden/soften our own positions and misconceptions.

When you die, you sleep till the Lord comes back. The Lord comes back and judges everyone and puts them where they belong. If they desired a relationship with Him, they live with Him for eternity. If they don't desire a relationship with Him then they go on without Him for eternity.

It's that easy.

By the way, no one knows the day or hour He will come back. He may come while we are yet still alive. He may come after we have passed away. He will come back.

We must have faith even in death, while asleep, He will come back.

After all, what else could anyone do in death, but hope? There's nothing else left to do but hope. Nothing more to do, but be patient. No energy left to draw upon, but be still and know that He is the Lord!

To this end we either believe in the metaphysical or we don't. I think very few people seriously discount the metaphysical entirely. At some point I'm not even sure that the distinction even makes sense, to be honest, so to discount something merely because we can't currently characterize it seems reckless at best.

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Now, as I stated before, if you start to deny that you are anything beyond the material, then you have no more rights than a rock. And you also, to be intellectually honest, must realize that then rape, slavery, murder are unable to be claimed as wrong or evil, and should not be punished.

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None of this follows at all. I need not have a soul to consider rights valid and useful. We grant animals certain rights and most don't think they have souls. Further, even if free will is some fine illusion (which by the way theism suffers the same issue with an omnipotent omniscient god removing any room for libertarian free will), we would still be more than justified in punishing crime. Even if the choices are fundamentally beyond people, we could very casually see that we can positively influence behavior and protect people from harm.

We take the same position for the criminally insane or ******ed. We don't consider them in control of their actions and yet do take away their rights for the protection of others.

Anyway science without an epistemologically sound truth normative is an exercise in circular logic.

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You still seem unable or unwilling to think about something outside of space and time. Again, if a spirit, mind, soul, or whatever is OUTSIDE of space and time, then it is inaccurate to use words like 'stored in'. You still seem unable or unwilling to think about something outside of space and time. Again, if a spirit, mind, soul, or whatever is OUTSIDE of space and time, then it is inaccurate to use words like 'stored in'.

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If something is OUTSIDE of space and time, then it is not going to have any effect on things INSIDE space and time. So it is irrelevant.

Does things OUTSIDE of space and time have any effect on any other whatevers that are also OUTSIDE space and time?

I don't think you can prove that in any logical way.

I'm outside the operating system of my computer but I can have an effect on it.

dds08 said:

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When you die, you sleep till the Lord comes back. The Lord comes back and judges everyone and puts them where they belong. If they desired a relationship with Him, they live with Him for eternity. If they don't desire a relationship with Him then they go on without Him for eternity.

It's that easy.

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That is definitely NOT what many Christians believe. Many believe that unless you believe in Jesus, you will NOT be going to a good afterlife (e.g., Heaven). Instead, you will go to a bad afterlife or not go anywhere at all.

A lot of Christians have a very poorly defined eschatology and soteriology. Most haven't given it much thought other than "go to heaven / hell".

I don't find your argument very forceful because it's a kind of logical fallacy (appeal to authority except instead of authority is common knowledge). You wouldn't accept a "most people don't even believe in relativity" line of discussion, would you?

dds08 said:

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By the way, no one knows the day or hour He will come back. He may come while we are yet still alive. He may come after we have passed away. He will come back.

We must have faith even in death, while asleep, He will come back.

After all, what else could anyone do in death, but hope? There's nothing else left to do but hope. Nothing more to do, but be patient. No energy left to draw upon, but be still and know that He is the Lord!

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No one knows for sure if there actually is a He or if He will ever come back.

You are hedging your bet so to speak. I don't blame you.

Now if somebody wakes me up after I die, I will believe anything them tell me and follow them anywhere they want me to go. But I don't think that will happen.

After death, I will not have faith, hope, or anything else except a decaying body. I will not be asleep. I will be dead. That is why you do NOT tell young kids at their granddad's funeral that he is just sleeping. Then they are scared to death they might end up like granddad when they go to sleep again.

k2aggie07 said:

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A lot of Christians have a very poorly defined eschatology and soteriology. Most haven't given it much thought other than "go to heaven / hell".

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I agree. If you believe in Jesus, you go to Heaven. If you don't, you go to Hell.

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I don't find your argument very forceful because it's a kind of logical fallacy (appeal to authority except instead of authority is common knowledge). You wouldn't accept a "most people don't even believe in relativity" line of discussion, would you?

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Which argument are you referring to?

"That is definitely NOT what many Christians believe. "

I don't see the relevance.

k2aggie07 said:

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You wouldn't accept a "most people don't even believe in relativity" line of discussion, would you?

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I like this a lot. Many people will look at you cross-eyed when you try to explain the impact on spacetime that happens to keep C constant for all observers.

MidTnAg said:

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What is afterlife? What exists after death?

Wikipedia: "The afterlife (also referred to as life after death or the hereafter) is the belief that an essential part of an individual's identity or consciousness continues to exist after the death of the body."

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One thing is for sure. One thing that will survive your death is the consequences of your actions (on other people) while you were here.

More and more, I believe that this has to be part of what Jesus was trying to teach us about. I still don't have my finger on it, but it is easy to see how good or bad a person can impact their family and community for generations.

k2aggie07 said:

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A lot of Christians have a very poorly defined eschatology and soteriology. Most haven't given it much thought other than "go to heaven / hell".

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Most Christians don't care to have a well defined eschatology (guilty) or soteriology (not guilty), nor is one needed for a good foundation or belief that Jesus was right.

To stick with the Einstein theme, I am way over my head in the maths related to relativity, but I always bet on Big AL when it comes to physics. That doesn't make me ignorant.

BusterAg said:

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MidTnAg said:

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What is afterlife? What exists after death?

Wikipedia: "The afterlife (also referred to as life after death or the hereafter) is the belief that an essential part of an individual's identity or consciousness continues to exist after the death of the body."

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One thing is for sure. One thing that will survive your death is the consequences of your actions (on other people) while you were here.

More and more, I believe that this has to be part of what Jesus was trying to teach us about. I still don't have my finger on it, but it is easy to see how good or bad a person can impact their family and community for generations.

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Most people will probably have some impact after their death. But I doubt that the vast majority of individuals will have an impact on anything generations later.

MidTnAg said:

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BusterAg said:

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MidTnAg said:

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What is afterlife? What exists after death?

Wikipedia: "The afterlife (also referred to as life after death or the hereafter) is the belief that an essential part of an individual's identity or consciousness continues to exist after the death of the body."

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One thing is for sure. One thing that will survive your death is the consequences of your actions (on other people) while you were here.

More and more, I believe that this has to be part of what Jesus was trying to teach us about. I still don't have my finger on it, but it is easy to see how good or bad a person can impact their family and community for generations.

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Most people will probably have some impact after their death. But I doubt that the vast majority of individuals will have an impact on anything generations later.

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I disagree.

You either leave the world better off or worse. I have seen the pain a particularly rotten person has had on their grand kids, because the grand kids parents were broken. I have seen the opposite, where a particularly special matriarch or patriarch had set the path for an extended family to be impressive.

Those consequences are set in stone, you don't get to take the triggering actions back.

Luckily for us we don't have to personally pay for the costs of all those bad decisions in our life, but I believe they are still connected somehow with our eternal consequence. Just not sure how.

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Yes, But I'm asking you what happens to people who die today. Their bodies are still in the ground and haven't been raised yet, so who's body are they in?

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Here's how I currenlty see things but could easily be wrong.

-human dies who belongs to Christ
-spirit is with Christ (Hebrews: absent from the body is to be present_
-natural body decays
-at some point in the future maybe last trumpet the natural body is resurrected and made imperishable

50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written,

anothter option is after the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. Rev 20.

Transfiguration Moses and Elijah were with Jesus. No telling what physical/spiritual state Moses. and Elijah were in but would conclude that whatever body they were in belonged to them.
2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.

BusterAg said:

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MidTnAg said:

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BusterAg said:

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MidTnAg said:

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What is afterlife? What exists after death?

Wikipedia: "The afterlife (also referred to as life after death or the hereafter) is the belief that an essential part of an individual's identity or consciousness continues to exist after the death of the body."

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One thing is for sure. One thing that will survive your death is the consequences of your actions (on other people) while you were here.

More and more, I believe that this has to be part of what Jesus was trying to teach us about. I still don't have my finger on it, but it is easy to see how good or bad a person can impact their family and community for generations.

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Most people will probably have some impact after their death. But I doubt that the vast majority of individuals will have an impact on anything generations later.

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I disagree.

You either leave the world better off or worse. I have seen the pain a particularly rotten person has had on their grand kids, because the grand kids parents were broken. I have seen the opposite, where a particularly special matriarch or patriarch had set the path for an extended family to be impressive.

Those consequences are set in stone, you don't get to take the triggering actions back.

Luckily for us we don't have to personally pay for the costs of all those bad decisions in our life, but I believe they are still connected somehow with our eternal consequence. Just not sure how.

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True for a generation or two. But rarely for "generations".

DirtDiver said:

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Yes, But I'm asking you what happens to people who die today. Their bodies are still in the ground and haven't been raised yet, so who's body are they in?

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Here's how I currently see things but could easily be wrong.

-human dies who belongs to Christ
-spirit is with Christ (Hebrews: absent from the body is to be present_
-natural body decays
-at some point in the future maybe last trumpet the natural body is resurrected and made imperishable

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human dies who belongs to Christ: What does this mean? What happens to humans who don't belong to Christ?

natural body decays: what is your difference between dies and decays? If our body decays, what is eventually resurrected?

Brief overview of the orthodox perspective: Christ defeated death. Hades was a state of being dead, not hell. It was a non-living state, but also not heaven/hell. Christ entered the state of death and could not be dead because He is the source of Life and is Life.

The Resurrection of Christ is a separate event from the resurrection of all.

In the meantime, when we die we still do not go to heaven or hell in a temporal sense because that is temporally after the final judgment.

On the other hand, there is no reason why the eschatological now needs to be on our own timeline, so from our perspective it may be immediate even if it is not temporally immediate.

I believe personally that heaven and hell are the same "place", that is, the presence of God in a sense which is pleasant to some and unpleasant to others. This of course is based on us and not on Him, because He is unchanging and loves all men.

To me, it is interesting that people have so many different concepts of what happens after we die. No one knows for certain. I guess we all hope there is something after death. I sincerely doubt there is.

Without using magic, how can anyone explain that we really don't die when we die? Or that some parts of us don't actually die.

Some believe that we will be transported to some other planet with similar properties like our earth has and be united with our love ones to spend eternity with.

I often wonder how people believe we will be transported there and in what form. Will it be on the same planet as all other humans that have died prior to our own death?

Will we share a planet with other advanced life forms from other planets?

If I really thought that I was going to live eternity on some other planet, I would work as hard as I could to become the smartest and healthiest person that I could possibly be and die around the age of 26. Then when I got to this other planet, I could still be a healthy, active person for eternity. If I waited until I was 80 to die, I would not be as active, healthy, or as good looking as I was when I was much younger.

You can't look at any particular thing in isolation. If we took a single point on the mesh of science without its supporting nodes you could ridicule it.

You're taking a single feature of Christianity - a belief in the resurrection - and ridiculing it versus your conclusions drawn independently. But you're not looking at any of the reasons why.

And truthfully, the "why" is the question you asked, except it is not about the afterlife. Avoiding your needlessly childish use of the word "magic" what you've essentially asked is a special form of the universal question "how can anyone explain anything metaphysical?"

The postmodern worldview robs us of things like Truth, Goodness, and Beauty and leaves us with an ontology of pragmatism. Study the basic assumptions of your ontology and you'll find the answer to all kinds of neat questions. That is, after all, the foundation of philosophy.

I believe we can win them over with love.

Let's focus and emphasize love.

Hard to argue with love.





Is there funk after death? Is 7 up?


Is there love after death? Is 7 up?

I know personally two people who have had near death experiences, and then another trustworthy second hand account of someone's final words the moment before they died after being flatlined that was really bizarre and indicative of a spiritual realm.... I do believe in a spiritual afterlife.

All we have are accounts of near death experiences. Science discounts them because they aren't repeatable or testable. isn't that the definition of supernatural?

MidTnAg said:

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What is afterlife? What exists after death?

Wikipedia: "The afterlife (also referred to as life after death or the hereafter) is the belief that an essential part of an individual's identity or consciousness continues to exist after the death of the body."

I have been involved in science most of my life. I believe in the laws of nature.
I do not believe in magic.

Thus, I do not believe that after we die, magic occurs and somehow some part of us continues to live.

Question: What lives after we die?
What does it do and where does it go?

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Your definition of magic and mine are way different.

An acorn becoming an oak tree only when mixed with dirt is magic to me. A heart that beats every second without intervention is magic to me. There is no root, scientific explanation for those things.