What does "young" and "old" earth mean?

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Martin Q. Blank
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1:56p, 4/25/17
People have told me I'm a "young" earther because I believe God created everything in 6 days. The evidence against the earth being "young", of course, is because the earth appears "old." But that's really attacking a straw man, right?

What is it about God creating everything in 6 days that requires the earth to appear young? How should the earth appear right after creation?
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PacifistAg
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2:08p, 4/25/17
AG
I don't think that believing in a literal 6-day creation necessarily requires belief in YEC. I think the two get conflated because most people that I've ever known to believe in one also believe in the other.
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swimmerbabe11
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2:09p, 4/25/17
I think it is bizarre that people pretend there is no way that a 6 day creationist could believe that God created a mature Earth just as He created a mature man.
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Martin Q. Blank
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In reply to PacifistAg • 2:10p, 4/25/17
I don't think you grasped the concept of the OP. I reject the label of "YEC". The "young" part is misleading.
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PacifistAg
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2:17p, 4/25/17
AG
On a side note, my wife and I had a conversation today that was sparked by something in Crucifixion of the Warrior God. It seems that when we point to verses pertaining to creation, we're doing it w/ the intent to either support creation theory or combat evolution. I think that we're missing the most important aspect of creation. It's not the when or how that really matters. It's the fact that all things were created through Jesus and for Jesus. Every atom in this universe was created through and for Him, and Him alone. He's the center of everything...past, present and future. What is all this for? Jesus Christ.

Just wanted to add that because it really kind of hit me today. All the division that stems from these types of debates, and there's nothing wrong with discussing these things, pulls a veil over our eyes and prevents us from seeing what truly matters. And that's Christ. Everything speaks to Him. I wish we'd start focusing less on certitude of the mechanics and place our emphasis on the only aspect of creation that truly matters. I just wanted to share because it was a conversation we literally had an hour ago, and this post brought it back to mind.
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 2:20p, 4/25/17
PacifistAg
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 2:20p, 4/25/17
AG
Martin Q. Blank said:
I don't think you grasped the concept of the OP. I reject the label of "YEC". The "young" part is misleading.
What is it about God creating everything in 6 days that requires the earth to appear young? -- it doesn't. God could create the universe to look however old He wanted to.

How should the earth appear right after creation? -- Nobody knows. Impossible to answer.
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Star Wars Memes Only
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In reply to [removed post] • 2:34p, 4/25/17
AstroAg17 said:
If we can agree that the earth appears old and that life appears related by descent, I don't care what unfalsifiable claims you have about how it got that way. That would be a major improvement.
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Woody2006
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 2:34p, 4/25/17
AG
Martin Q. Blank said:
People have told me I'm a "young" earther because I believe God created everything in 6 days. The evidence against the earth being "young", of course, is because the earth appears "old." But that's really attacking a straw man, right?

What is it about God creating everything in 6 days that requires the earth to appear young? How should the earth appear right after creation?
I don't think I could argue against your assertion that God created a universe that appears 13.8 billion years old in a 6 day span. I could question why certain things exist as they do given that paradigm, but your answer could always be "because that's the way He wanted it".

For example, "why did God leave fossils from animals in the ground that appear hundreds of millions of years old or why can we count hundreds of thousands of years' worth of seasons directly via ice cores when the Earth was created in a 6-day span around 6000 years ago?"

If your response is "because that's the way He wanted it", how could I disprove your assertion?
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Martin Q. Blank
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In reply to Woody2006 • 2:38p, 4/25/17
Woody2006 said:
Martin Q. Blank said:
People have told me I'm a "young" earther because I believe God created everything in 6 days. The evidence against the earth being "young", of course, is because the earth appears "old." But that's really attacking a straw man, right?

What is it about God creating everything in 6 days that requires the earth to appear young? How should the earth appear right after creation?
I could question why certain things exist as they do given that paradigm
which is why I asked how the earth should appear right after creation. You're saying as it is minus fossils and (per AstroAg) life that appears related by descent?
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Sapper Redux
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In reply to swimmerbabe11 • 2:39p, 4/25/17
swimmerbabe11 said:
I think it is bizarre that people pretend there is no way that a 6 day creationist could believe that God created a mature Earth just as He created a mature man.


No one says it's impossible. It's just not logical. Or necessary. Or honest.
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Martin Q. Blank
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In reply to Sapper Redux • 2:41p, 4/25/17
Dr. Watson said:
swimmerbabe11 said:
I think it is bizarre that people pretend there is no way that a 6 day creationist could believe that God created a mature Earth just as He created a mature man.
No one says it's impossible. It's just not logical. Or necessary. Or honest.
Right up your alley.
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swimmerbabe11
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In reply to Sapper Redux • 2:41p, 4/25/17
Why not? It is consistent with man's creation? It is consistent with how the earth has continued to age.
Completely logical to put a system together that 'makes sense' scientifically..just as everything now operates in a logical and meaningful way.
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Star Wars Memes Only
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 2:47p, 4/25/17
Martin Q. Blank said:
Woody2006 said:
Martin Q. Blank said:
People have told me I'm a "young" earther because I believe God created everything in 6 days. The evidence against the earth being "young", of course, is because the earth appears "old." But that's really attacking a straw man, right?

What is it about God creating everything in 6 days that requires the earth to appear young? How should the earth appear right after creation?
I could question why certain things exist as they do given that paradigm
which is why I asked how the earth should appear right after creation. You're saying as it is minus fossils and (per AstroAg) life that appears related by descent?

You would not expect artifacts of age.

https://texags.com/forums/15/topics/2626017

https://texags.com/forums/15/topics/2628447

https://texags.com/forums/15/topics/2624162

I might have made more...I don't know.
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Star Wars Memes Only
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2:50p, 4/25/17
A lot of this was discussed here: https://texags.com/forums/15/topics/2615250/0
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Woody2006
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 2:50p, 4/25/17
AG
Martin Q. Blank said:
Woody2006 said:
Martin Q. Blank said:
People have told me I'm a "young" earther because I believe God created everything in 6 days. The evidence against the earth being "young", of course, is because the earth appears "old." But that's really attacking a straw man, right?

What is it about God creating everything in 6 days that requires the earth to appear young? How should the earth appear right after creation?
I could question why certain things exist as they do given that paradigm
which is why I asked how the earth should appear right after creation. You're saying as it is minus fossils and (per AstroAg) life that appears related by descent?
What would be the point of a universe expanding away from itself and light appearing from billions of light years away if the Earth was created 6000 years ago?

To your question, I would imagine a new creation should appear as though it actually were a new creation.

That doesn't change that I certainly can't disprove your assertion that in 6 24-hour periods, God created the universe to appear as though it had been around for 13.8 billion years. However, I can't disprove Russel's teapot, either.
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Martin Q. Blank
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In reply to Star Wars Memes Only • 2:52p, 4/25/17
dargscisyhp said:
Martin Q. Blank said:
Woody2006 said:
Martin Q. Blank said:
People have told me I'm a "young" earther because I believe God created everything in 6 days. The evidence against the earth being "young", of course, is because the earth appears "old." But that's really attacking a straw man, right?

What is it about God creating everything in 6 days that requires the earth to appear young? How should the earth appear right after creation?
I could question why certain things exist as they do given that paradigm
which is why I asked how the earth should appear right after creation. You're saying as it is minus fossils and (per AstroAg) life that appears related by descent?

You would not expect artifacts of age.

https://texags.com/forums/15/topics/2626017

https://texags.com/forums/15/topics/2628447

https://texags.com/forums/15/topics/2624162

I might have made more...I don't know.


Yes, all have a common theme. The assumption that a 6 day creation "would not expect artifacts of age." Why?

What is it about God creating everything in 6 days that requires the earth to appear young? How should the earth appear right after creation?
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Martin Q. Blank
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In reply to Woody2006 • 2:53p, 4/25/17

Quote:
To your question, I would imagine a new creation should appear as though it actually were a new creation.
Which is?
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Star Wars Memes Only
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2:54p, 4/25/17
I'm trying to respond to the question "How should the Earth appear right after creation." You're right that a six day creation doesn't necessitate a young Earth.
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2:56p, 4/25/17
Martin Q. Blank
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In reply to [removed post] • 2:58p, 4/25/17
Had I been there on day 6, I would not use the word "young" to describe the earth. Nor does the Bible.
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Woody2006
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 2:58p, 4/25/17
AG
Martin Q. Blank said:

Quote:
To your question, I would imagine a new creation should appear as though it actually were a new creation.
Which is?
One that appears new rather than old.
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Martin Q. Blank
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In reply to Woody2006 • 3:00p, 4/25/17
Woody2006 said:
Martin Q. Blank said:

Quote:
To your question, I would imagine a new creation should appear as though it actually were a new creation.
Which is?
One that appears new rather than old.
Cute
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Star Wars Memes Only
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 3:00p, 4/25/17
Martin Q. Blank said:
Had I been there on day 6, I would not use the word "young" to describe the earth. Nor does the Bible.

It's a descriptor relative to what is the scientific consensus.
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Sapper Redux
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In reply to swimmerbabe11 • 3:15p, 4/25/17
swimmerbabe11 said:
Why not? It is consistent with man's creation? It is consistent with how the earth has continued to age.
Completely logical to put a system together that 'makes sense' scientifically..just as everything now operates in a logical and meaningful way.


Again, we can measure the amount of time that has passed since the Big Bang because of scientific constants in the speed of light and the decay of certain isotopes. For your position to be right, God had to fabricate these constants and the age of the universe. He also fabricated whole galaxies, since their light could not have reached us in 6,000 years. There's nothing logical about that. Or necessary. Or honest. God exists outside of time and space. 13.4 billion years is the same to him as 6000 years. So why create a universe that has all the hallmarks and evidence of one billions of years old if the universe is not billions of years old? The only answer you have, is "because of what Genesis says." That's not actually an argument. That's a conclusion for which you must now contort reality and the nature of God.
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TexAgs91
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In reply to Sapper Redux • 3:47p, 4/25/17
AG
Quote:
So why create a universe that has all the hallmarks and evidence of one billions of years old if the universe is not billions of years old? The only answer you have, is "because of what Genesis says." That's not actually an argument. That's a conclusion for which you must now contort reality and the nature of God.
Good question. Wasn't the bible written by what we are always told: flawed humans? Nature is God's direct word. What does nature say about the age of the Earth?
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DirtDiver
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4:01p, 4/25/17
In the Genesis account we see that:
1. It's a mature creation: birds of the air vs birds in an egg. Tree's vs seeds, etc
2. Describing a mature creation and telling us He did it that way elimates the possibility of deception.
3. He was making a place for humanity to enjoy. My opinion is that the stars at night would be enjoyable and useful now vs later.

Someone was right above in mentioning that the "why" questions are hard to answer because like anyone creating anything it's up to the Creator as to why they chose to do things that way.

To me it's not reasonable that fossils were put in the ground upon creation. My opinion is that fossils were a result of a flood.
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Aggrad08
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In reply to swimmerbabe11 • 4:12p, 4/25/17
AG
swimmerbabe11 said:
I think it is bizarre that people pretend there is no way that a 6 day creationist could believe that God created a mature Earth just as He created a mature man.
No one claims there is no way. Only that it's absurdly deceptive, unnecessary and more than a little dumb. To make the analogy more accurate, it wouldn't just be god creating adam mature, but with clear signs of age and decay unrelated to function.

For instance, was adam born with tooth decay? Was he already starting to bald or grey? Were his joints deteriorated? Did he have scars? Lost vision or hearing capacity? Early signs of clogged arteries?

This is exactly what we see with out universe, signs of age completely unrelated to good function and "maturity". Why would we have vestiges of evolution. Why bury fossils that never lived? Rocks with decay they do not require? Why fake light from distant galaxies? Don't you find that openly deceptive?
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Aggrad08
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4:14p, 4/25/17
AG

Quote:
To me it's not reasonable that fossils were put in the ground upon creation. My opinion is that fossils were a result of a flood.
This is casually discredited while looking at the evidence. So is the very flood itself. At every turn creationists have to explain why nothing points in their favor in terms of hard evidence.
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Martin Q. Blank
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4:23p, 4/25/17
I would think it would be more deceptive to make the earth from the Big Bang and then tell Moses to write down you did it in 6 days and to base the week/Sabbath off of it and to have multiple genealogies back to Adam and...
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fwheightsboy
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4:25p, 4/25/17
AG
"13.4 billion years is the same to him as 6000 years."

Can you tell me what your authority is for that statement?
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Martin Q. Blank
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In reply to Aggrad08 • 4:26p, 4/25/17

Quote:
To make the analogy more accurate, it wouldn't just be god creating adam mature, but with clear signs of age and decay unrelated to function.
How many wrinkles is Adam allowed to have in order to have signs of age, but not "clear" signs of age? How many hairs? Can he consume vegetables or only milk?
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swimmerbabe11
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In reply to Aggrad08 • 4:29p, 4/25/17
Decay in humans was a result of the fall, so he was a perfectly healthy aged adult male. With all of his adult teeth.
The earth doesn't have the same type of issue. Erosion doesn't mean the Earth is dying.
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TexAgs91
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In reply to DirtDiver • 4:34p, 4/25/17
AG
Quote:
2. Describing a mature creation and telling us He did it that way elimates the possibility of deception.
That's after the fact. If the bible pre-dated the Earth, then you'd be correct.
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TexAgs91
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 4:37p, 4/25/17
AG
Martin Q. Blank said:
I would think it would be more deceptive to make the earth from the Big Bang and then tell Moses to write down you did it in 6 days and to base the week/Sabbath off of it and to have multiple genealogies back to Adam and...
Perhaps Moses is deceptive? Remember, humans are fallible.
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