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Using pronouns doesn't shove it in anyone's face. They know you disagree, they don't need to be insulated from that fact and it doesn't need to be downplayed. You disagree. She thinks she's a she, you think she's a he.

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I don't know that you can answer this for someone else. If someone would like to be called "she" and you keep saying "he", I am not sure how that's not shoving it in their face.

I guess, if he was a egomaniac.

So, to go down another rabbit trail....is trolling "unChristian"?

Here's where I stand on the whole "we shouldn't acquiesce to mentally ill people and call them the gender that they are biologically not just like we shouldn't agree to call anorexics fat."

You can visibly see if a person is fat or not. If they are bone thin of course you shouldn't agree to call them fat if they insist they are. However, biology is not so easily assessed. It would be foolish to say that gender is black and white when we know for a fact there are mutations among humans all the time. Hermaphrodites are not made up. They exist. There are mixed up genetics all the time that cause havoc in humans where things that should only happen with females can happen to males and visa versa.

How can you truly know for a fact that the person you are addressing that was born and raised as one sex and now asks to be called another has absolutely no mixed biology? Hell I don't think even biologists can fully say for sure since we still don't know conclusively what all constitutes the two sexes when it comes to exact biology. Do you know exactly what their genitals look like? Can you say for sure they have a complete set? Why do you insist to know what true biology they are?

To me it would seem that by at least going along with their request, not treating them differently, and being respectful of their requests so far as what to call them and what bathroom they are in, you would remove all their external excuses for mental anguish. If they no longer can blame their depression on how they are treated by society, then they would be left with only to look inward.

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How can you truly know for a fact that the person you are addressing that was born and raised as one sex and now asks to be called another has absolutely no mixed biology?

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Good point. How are we to know at the start of the conversation that they are not intersex? It's making an assumption that will set the tone for the entire engagement.

Just saw a tweet from theologian Miroslav Volf that seemed relevant for this discussion:

RetiredAg said:

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So, to go down another rabbit trail....is trolling "unChristian"?

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I'd say yes. As I see it, it's an attempt to draw attention to yourself, which would seem to be grounded in pride. Also, it often provokes others to anger. Maybe I'm missing a perspective on this though.

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Do you have a responsibility to hide your opinions? That's what you're implying, I think. You're not going out of your way to do anything. You are speaking as you would to anyone else. I think "rubbing it in their face" implies that you're treating them differently than you normally would. You aren't rubbing a cis person's gender in their face by calling them by the pronouns you think best describe them, and it's not intentionally offensive when you do it to a trans person. You just disagree, and it's going to be apparent in the conversation.

In a more concise phrasing, I don't think "rubbing something in someone's face" is dependent on the person you're speaking to. If I rubbed X in Y's face, then saying the same thing to Z should also be rubbing X in Z's face.

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Maybe I am not getting your point. A trans person doesn't think it's intentionally offensive to be called by a pronoun they don't believe they are, after they explicitly tell you what to call them?

I am not sure how a cisgender's opinion matter. Of course a man is not going to be upset to be called he. The fact that they don't has no bearing on whether someone else might.

Maybe it's the speaking in hypotheticals...or trying to globalize it to make sure we include all cases, but I am struggling to understand why we need to tell someone they are a "he" if they don't want to be regardless of your opinion on transgender. It's like "he" needs someone to stick up for him lest it's rendered powerless.

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I think Caitlyn Jenner is a man. She should seek professional help to treat her dysphoria.

Better? I could get used to this respect thing

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I am not sure what your goals are. if you are talking to someone whos TG, this statement is softer than your previous one about them never being a man now matter how they "feel".

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If words change definition based on each persons' feelings, language becomes meaningless.

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I disagree. We rely on communication and will always adapt to whatever thoughts we need to express. Words change meaning over time and as scopes change. I don't see the state of language being threatened if we call people by the pronouns they want to be called by.

No one's advocating that all dogs shall now be called cats because it's hurts my feelings otherwise.

Using the global "we" makes your point?

I did not see this posted, and I'm not sure after the way things have gone, I'm going to much.

My friend was laid to rest on her parents property in a private ceremony, and I'm staying in touch with them.

I attended the funeral of a good friends 2 month old baby yesterday.

Thus last week has tested my ability to deal with people

Martin Q. Blank said:

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If I use pronouns according to nature, is that a derogatory name? If I encourage Ag_of_08 to seek help to correct his dysphoria, am I treating him like garbage?

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And if I no longer experience dysphoria after getting professional help BECAUSE I transitioned, is that pro, and myself wrong? That we've established nature is not always clear cut as the definition you assign to them.

I know, thay can't be right, that the genome thay took us decades to even map, and aren't close to deciding fully, can have rare variables that make people different.

Ag_of_08 said:

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I did not see this posted, and I'm not sure after the way things have gone, I'm going to much.

My friend was laid to rest on her parents property in a private ceremony, and I'm staying in touch with them.

I attended the funeral of a good friends 2 month old baby yesterday.

Thus last week has tested my ability to deal with people

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Sorry to hear about the losses.

The friend who lost the baby was my trainer, and became a beloved friend.

Her husband is currently one of my shift mates. He is older than her, and this was his first, and likely the only child he will ever have.


To many people dying....to much pain

diehard03 said:

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Using the global "we" makes your point?

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Yes, there must be a consensus on words' meanings otherwise the hearer will interpret your words incorrectly. Such as:

Ag_of_08 said:

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The friend who lost the baby was my trainer, and became a beloved friend.

Her husband is currently one of my shift mates. He is older than her, and this was his first, and likely the only child he will ever have.


To many people dying....to much pain

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I have no idea how Ag_of_08 is using "husband", "he", or "her". The words are essentially useless and shouldn't be used anymore.

What doesn't make sense?

That were still discovering things about genetics and gender, or that just because someone is trans, does not mean they experience dysphoria?

Martin Q. Blank said:

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diehard03 said:

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Using the global "we" makes your point?

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Yes, there must be a consensus on words' meanings otherwise the hearer will interpret your words incorrectly. Such as:

Ag_of_08 said:

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The friend who lost the baby was my trainer, and became a beloved friend.

Her husband is currently one of my shift mates. He is older than her, and this was his first, and likely the only child he will ever have.


To many people dying....to much pain

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I have no idea how Ag_of_08 is using "husband", "he", or "her". The words are essentially useless and shouldn't be used anymore.

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You're using me talking about two people who's 2mo old baby just died to justify your point.

Do you realize what kind of a monster I consider you right now? I did not post that for you to effing make fun if, I posted to clarify something for the poster that had expressed remorse.

Really, I don't care if I'm banned, you are an awful person for even going there.

Ag_of_08 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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diehard03 said:

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Using the global "we" makes your point?

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Yes, there must be a consensus on words' meanings otherwise the hearer will interpret your words incorrectly. Such as:

Ag_of_08 said:

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The friend who lost the baby was my trainer, and became a beloved friend.

Her husband is currently one of my shift mates. He is older than her, and this was his first, and likely the only child he will ever have.


To many people dying....to much pain

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I have no idea how Ag_of_08 is using "husband", "he", or "her". The words are essentially useless and shouldn't be used anymore.

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You're using me talking about two people who's 2mo old baby just died to justify your point.

Do you realize what kind of a monster I consider you right now? I did not post that for you to effing make fun if, I posted to clarify something for the poster that had expressed remorse.

Really, I don't care if I'm banned, you are an awful person for even going there.

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You're right. I honestly didn't read the post about the baby dying or even the one I just quoted. I just saw the words "husband", "he", and "her" and quickly used it to reply about word meanings. I should have been more careful. I can't imagine going to a 2 month old's funeral, especially for a close friend.

I'm sorry for going ballistic, but that hurt.


I try to be civil posting over here, is not politics, and I appreciate the way most people, even yourself, handle them.

AstroAg17 said:

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I didn't understand the words you wrote.

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seconding this.

The grammar is really confusing in that post. I'm not sure I followed.

Ag_of_08 said:

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The friend who lost the baby was my trainer, and became a beloved friend.

Her husband is currently one of my shift mates. He is older than her, and this was his first, and likely the only child he will ever have.


To many people dying....to much pain

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That's horrible. If you need anything, or just someone to vent to, please feel free to email me any time....christianpacifist@hotmail.com.

Thank you for the offer. I have spent the week reflecting on a lot of things, and have committed to try and be a bit more positive in my outlook, to fight the depression head on, and help the families as I can.

Death comes painfully, and swiftly, but I think both have moved on to better fields.

I will clarify the other post later.

Which leads right back to Retired's original post.

In the same breathe, sometimes this place can be a great comfort, and prove that some people are really wonderful.


I made that on politics in anger. I had just gotten done trying to console her father and deal with my own grief, knowing that the societal pressures she faced that had driven her into this level of depression, are commonly displayed there.


I should not have made the post when I did, but I hope her story means something to people.


I spoke with her parents Wednesday, they are surviving, but struggling a great deal with self blame and loss. I miss my friend, but am more worried about the living right now.