Martin Q. Blank said:

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RetiredAg said:

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Once again, the point of the thread is not to discuss the specific issue of gender dysphoria. It's about being more thoughtful and respectful in how we engage. Let's not get bogged down in these rabbit trails. This is a problem far greater than this one specific issue.

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The problem is my idea of thoughtful and respectful dialogue you think of as treating someone like garbage. It's a useless phrase.

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You even said earlier that you could carefully craft your comments so as to avoid the use of pronouns altogether. That's what I'm talking about. It may take a little effort and thinking on your part, but if you want the person you are engaging to get the help you claim they need, then isn't that effort worth it?

If you don't know if it's "thoughtful and respectful", then don't say it. Pray about it. Let the Spirit lead you.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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RetiredAg said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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RetiredAg said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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RetiredAg said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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And also said "for you have had five husbands, and the one you now have is not your husband. What you have said is true."

And "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?"

Didn't shy away from facts because it might make someone feel bad.

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He also knows the hearts of people. We don't. As I said in my last post, this may require you to exert some energy and thought to engage respectfully and in a way that won't violate your conscience. But, is your concern getting them to accept that you are "right" about the pronoun issue, or is it to get them to seek help? The first one can become a pride issue. If you are uncomfortable using preferred pronouns, fine. This just means you may need to be more thoughtful in your choice of words so as to not shut down the dialogue while not violating your conscience.

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If I call Bruce Jenner a man, am I being prideful?

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I don't know your heart. FYI, her name is Caitlyn. I'm pretty sure she's legally changed her name.

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If I call Caitlyn Jenner a man with my heart's intent to use the English language properly, am I being prideful?

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I don't know your heart. Only you can truly say why you insist on calling her man, even it if means pushing those you believe need help further away from the help you claim they need. That's why I said it "can" become a pride issue. Is your priority on letting everyone know you are "right", or is it helping those you believe need help?

All I'm saying is be thoughtful about how you engage before you actually engage. Don't just consider your perspective, but consider how your words will be received by others.

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You used the female pronoun when you didn't have to. Is your priority on letting me know you are "right"? Is this a pride issue for you? Do you feel you are being thoughtful when you are engaging me?

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Okay, I'm not sure what you're looking to gain from our discussion. Are you simply wanting to argue? If so, I'm not going to participate any further. If you wish to fixate on the use of pronouns, then start a new thread. This thread is about engaging each other in respectful ways because we never know what the person on the other side of the screen is going through. Stop fixating on the example used in the OP. You're missing the forest for the trees.

If I wronged you, I do sincerely apologize. As I said multiple times, tone and how I engage others can be a blind spot for me, so I'm certainly working daily to practice what I preach. I'm not perfect, but clearly something has been done or said in the past that has led to some sort of animosity towards me. Whatever it was, I'm sorry.

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As a side note, the person cutting off a conversation over the use of offensive pronouns is being just as much of an ass as the person who won't stop using them. Two sides, same coin.

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I guess this thread is timely. It depends on how you are using "cutting off a conversation". You have a point if someone is playing the "if you dont call me exactly what I want to be called, then you can go play in traffic" card...then sure.

But if cutting off a conversation is just refusing to participate in discussions with this person because they don't respect you...then I don't see how that person is an ass.

The context of that comment was a caring discussion with someone who is trying to understand and help and not actively trying to offend.

But yes, getting out of an unsolicited anonymous conversation on the internet is not being an ass.

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Lots of times when someone says we need to engage each other with respect, love, civility, etc, what they really mean is "if you don't think like I do" or at least "if you don't adopt my worldview when we have a discussion", then you are "disrespectful, hateful, rude, etc."

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I've never defined "respect, love, civility" like that, so your issue is not with me, yet 99% of your posts are directed at me.

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As a rudimentary example, I used the pronoun. Such a basic form of language learned at 2-3 years old. Yet two people on this thread said that if I don't adopt trangenders' worldview on the matter (i.e. use the pronoun they want me to use), then I am treating them like garbage. You don't think that's a little extreme? If we can't even agree on what is respect, love, civil, etc. on such a basic form of language employed by the most early learners, what makes you think we can agree on more complicated matters?

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Yes, I think it's extreme to say you are treating them like "garbage" if you use a non-preferred pronoun. Depending on the context, I don't think it's a stretch to say it's rude. But, my point has consistently been that we should simply be more thoughtful in how we communicate with others. Surely you can agree with that, right? Before engaging, think about how our comments will be received. As you said, you could change your wording to simply avoid any pronouns. That way you are not violating your conscience and the other party is not immediately getting defensive over the use of pronouns. The point is that, with a little effort, you can maintain a clear conscience while also engaging in a way that will be viewed as respectful by the other party. It takes actual effort though. Shooting from the hip, trolling, etc take no effort and often lead to broken dialogue. Why would anyone want that?

We should be lifting others up with our words. We can do that, even with competing worldviews. How? Think before you speak. But not just about whether what you are saying is "right" or not, but also about how your words will be received. If there's a question about how they will be received, then think about changing the wording so as to avoid offense while maintaining your conscience.

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As a rudimentary example, I used the pronoun. Such a basic form of language learned at 2-3 years old. Yet two people on this thread said that if I don't adopt trangenders' worldview on the matter (i.e. use the pronoun they want me to use), then I am treating them like garbage. You don't think that's a little extreme? If we can't even agree on what is respect, love, civil, etc. on such a basic form of language employed by the most early learners, what makes you think we can agree on more complicated matters?

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I think this is the discrepency: They aren't asking you to adopt their worldview by calling them by their pronoun. They are simply asking you to address them how they want to be addressed. Maybe a more appropriate analogy are nicknames or short versions of names. If someone asks you to call them Bill, you seem to want to keep calling them William because their real name is William.

I think this is where we get off track in discussions like this. There's an assumption you are working off of that might not be what everyone agrees with.

T said:

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This coming from someone who last week said a person's position was "antichrist." Yah, you really think hard about how your words are going to be received and try to avoid offense.

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How many times must I say that this is also a struggle for me, especially recently? Obviously I fail at this, and when I do I seek to make amends with the person.

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No matter. How do I get my point across that Caitlyn Jenner and Ag_of_08 are men and should seek professional help to treat their dysphoria while

• thinking about how my words will be received
• avoiding offense
• maintaining a clear conscience
• being respectful, loving, etc.

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That's where the effort come in to play. That's where the thoughtfulness and contemplation come into play. Perhaps pray and seek His guidance if you come into situations like this. He's going to give much better advice than any person will. Just because it's hard doesn't mean we get a waiver on how we treat others.

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No matter. How do I get my point across that Caitlyn Jenner and Ag_of_08 are men and should seek professional help to treat their dysphoria while

• thinking about how my words will be received
• avoiding offense
• maintaining a clear conscience
• being respectful, loving, etc.

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"Diplomacy is the art of telling people to go to hell in such a way that they ask for directions." - supposedly Winston Churchhill.

The question is always "how much do you care?" in terms of where to put your energy. People that are skilled in relationships can be principled on matters that are important to them while still honoring the humanity of others and avoid being offensive.

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The fact is, what you are asking is impossible on a plethora of subjects,

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No, it's never impossible to be respectful and kind with how one communicates. To veer from that is a personal decision to do so.

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The question is always "how much do you care?" in terms of where to put your energy. People that are skilled in relationships can be principled on matters that are important to them while still honoring the humanity of others and avoid being offensive.

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As I said before:

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That's where the effort come in to play. That's where the thoughtfulness and contemplation come into play. Perhaps pray and seek His guidance if you come into situations like this. He's going to give much better advice than any person will. Just because it's hard doesn't mean we get a waiver on how we treat others.

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If you can't address those points without treating the Ag_of_08 with respect and kindness, then I'd recommend simply not engaging her.

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A lot of people view anti-transgender views as intolerant and offensive, regardless of what kind of bow or wrapping paper you put them in.

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I think "how" it's done matters in terms of people's perceptions. For instance, MQB's first comment in the post he references about his respect level has this statement:

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"Transgenders can never become the opposite sex no matter what they "feel"."

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And, given most commonly-held beliefs of what defines genders, he would be right. But, we have to know that if someone goes to great lengths to change just about everything they can to be closest approximation, making a definitive statement that someone will never get there will be hurtful to them. It's just how we humans are. Some will get past that and not be offended.

This is what I mean by it depends on how much you care. How important is this topic? If one really wants dialogue on the subject, then one has to refrain to making statements that you know will incense the other side. This is where the skill comes into play. It's easy to just put it on the other person for being too sensitive. You can see that in the thread...but it may not lead to the dialogue you want to have.

AstroAg17 said:

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I think he's asking for an example, because he doesn't believe it can be done. I tend to agree with him. You cannot convey the ideas he listed in an inoffensive manner because the ideas themselves are what offend.

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This is where I think building relationships with people becomes vitally important. Perhaps build a relationship with the person before even discussing issues like that. Let both sides see the humanity of the other, which will make both far less likely to assume the worst about the other. Obviously, that's more difficult on an internet forum. In that case, the reputation one has from their posting history is going to factor heavily into it. Do you have a history of being boorish or a troll? Then yeah, it may be impossible for the other person to see the pure intent of your comments. It doesn't mean it's impossible for one to try to convey those thoughts with respect and kindness though. It will affect how they are received, which is why it's so vitally important to always be on guard with what we say and how we act, even here. Others are watching and developing an opinion of us based on what we say here. That opinion is going to impact how receptive they are to the more "controversial" issues.

I'll use Beer Baron as an example. Unfortunately he doesn't post here much anymore, but I know that he and I have always had respectful engagements. He knows my view on homosexual actions, but I would like to think that I have a history of being kind and respectful to him to the point that he knows my statements on homosexual actions isn't coming from a place of disrespect.

You can't be an ass nonstop, then expect people to give you the benefit of the doubt when it comes to the intentions with which you approach them.

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I think he's asking for an example, because he doesn't believe it can be done. I tend to agree with him. You cannot convey the ideas he listed in an inoffensive manner because the ideas themselves are what offend.

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Exactly.

That's why I stay off those threads.

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I agree with your post, but I think you're ignoring a crucial fact. The points that you suggest Martin avoid are his main points. They are his opinion on the matter.

Your example was of something that both sides can likely agree on if they're really being objective. This isn't the case for the assertion that their dysphoria is a problem, and that's an important distinction. Your example statement is one which doesn't need to be said. This does need to be said, since it is his entire assertion. If you believe dysphoria is a problem that needs to be corrected, you must either keep that entirely to yourself or you will offend some people. There is no way around this.

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I don't know that I agree quite yet with this. I mean, I get it if you reach a value-based impasse...like a pro-rapist not valuing consent. Someone might not value the sovereignty of another person, and the conversation will not move forward.

Maybe that's the crux of it: is their desire to be the opposite sex really a problem? To win them over, you'd have to use values they ascribe to do so...so back to effort/caring.

AstroAg17 said:

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That's a good example of a successful dialogue, but there are many cases where dialogues fail due to content rather than tone even with a loving relationship. For an example look no further than the multitude of gay people with Christian parents who have attempted to "rebuke with love" only to absolutely destroy their relationship. The concept that "you're broken, we need to fix you" that's at the core of these messages cannot be well received by some people.

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Agreed. And that's understandable. I think the problem many make is with this concept of "you're broken, we need to fix you". As a Christian, I think this misses the mark. To me, the concept should be "we're all broken, let's go to God to have Him remake us". Too often, especially on issues related to homosexuality, we seem to view the "other" as broken and forget that we too are broken.

Fortunately, or unfortunately, I'm so unbelievably broken that if I am faced with this situation as a father, I'll be able to share the areas so it becomes not about fixing my child, but about both of us growing closer to our Lord in our brokenness. But, our kids also know that we don't view it as a choice to be gay, so it really becomes an issue of what's the Godly way forward.

Personally, on that issue..I just avoid pronouns if at all possible. I've done some grammar gymnastics to accomplish this too.

I don't know of any other way to express that you are not condoning while shoving it in someone's face that you don't agree.

I think the religious overtones are the most damaging with this issue.

While I also think there is a lot of evidence out there that sexual reassignment doesn't not really help in the long run and sometimes makes it much worse, I am not offended in any way by trans people and I only hope for them to find peace no matter what it means as far as what sex they ultimately live as.

The religious aspect brings with it animosity in many cases. The idea that they are offending God. That what they are doing is somehow an abomination. The same way we see it arise in the homosexual issues. It is a deep seeded, "we hate folks that are different than us" mentality that people find an excuse to have in religion. "Well not only am I disgusted by gays but God is to, so I'm right to subjugate them to shame."

It is this whole bully attitude that so many close minded people have, and we see advocated for on this very forum (mainly on the Politics and Gen board). The idea that bullies serve a purpose to make the weak, the "freaks" the weirdos straighten up and join the cookie cutter way God made us to be.

As much as I dislike liberal agendas, the one that told people that they are ok being who they are was one we desperately needed as a country. It is just unfortunately that it apparently might not be such a good idea for everyone that thinks they are a different gender to seek out changing their bodies as opposed to seeking out emotional help.

So, seeing the history of how so called "Christians" have treated homosexual with the "love the sinner but your sin is an abomination", it's no wonder why trans people do not want to hear what you have to say about them getting help when you come from a point of view that what they are doing is offending God.

Any God that would be upset over a person who suffered from emotional distress over their gender, changing it, as opposed to being upset that the person was distressed in the first place would be an awful God.