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LOL keep moving those goalposts.

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I did not move the goalposts. BB made that statement to Palestinian leadership knowing they wouldn't accept it and they did not accept it.

There is lots of evil on both sides of this issue.

The settlements are against international law. Israel does it mostly just to spite Palestine, as they plan on eventually forcing everyone out of the West Bank, clearly.

However, I take BB at his word. I really do think that peace could be found if the current borders were acknowledged by all sides and hostilities stopped.

Both sides want the other side dead in the name of all that is holy. Sad situation. For the record, I condemn all involved.

I have no Christian based support of them. I don't believe in end times. I don't even think the US should be sending them or any of the countrise over there nearly as much money as we do. I don't think it's our business how Israel defends itself.

Aggrad08 said:

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There is definitely evil on both sides. I think a large part of retireds focus being on palistine is due to personal experience and the common lack of acknowledged wrongdoing on Israeli part by large swaths of Americans, Typically evangelical Christians who due to their eschatology see Israel playing a role in end times and turn a blind eye to objective facts that portray Israel negatively.

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Exactly. I've never denied wrongdoing on the Palestinian side, but as you alluded to, in terms of America and American Christianity, Israel essentially gets a free pass. I'm relaying what I personally witnessed though. That's really all I can do. Both sides are responding to evil with evil, but only looking at the issue from a one-sided perspective will do nothing to help.

That's one thing that both sides told us while I was over there. Once they sat down and actually talked to the other side, saw their humanity, saw their similarities, it completely changed their view of the other side. Unfortunately, we've been fed this narrative that Palestinians want to exterminate Israelis, which is a mindset I didn't see once while there. I saw people on both sides that are tired of the conflict and want peaceful resolution that's fair for both sides.

One thing the MCW lawyer told us was that the infamous 1990's offer rejected to Palestine wasn't what it was made out to be. Israel maintained military control all Palestinian borders and airspace. That's not a state if some other nation controls your borders and airspace. But, no matter what happened in the past, the present is dominated by the settlement issue. Settlements are dividing the WB in half and people are being removed from land they've lived on for generations. We went to the South Hebron Hills and stayed in the village of Susya. They've been removed from their land and are now living in tents. The Israeli military has ordered the demolition of the tents where over 500 live. It's things like this.

But, as the father of a murdered Israeli soldier told us, "neither side are all angels, and neither side are all devils". That's not how we've approached it here, which has given Israel tremendous cover for their actions. Denying both sides complicity will only make the situation worse.

My last thing today on this is, as a Christian, I believe we should stand with the oppressed and marginalized. That doesn't mean we excuse their wrong actions, but we can't forget that they are oppressed. As I said on another thread, I think both sides are enslaved. One physically. One spiritually (actually probably both, but the point being both sides are enslaved). I pray both the oppressed and oppressor are freed from what binds them. But the only way that'll happen is if we're willing to name the evil for what it is and work with both sides to a peaceful resolution.

Happy Thanksgiving to everyone here. And 7nine, my apologies for my tone yesterday. I was not showing much grace, and I apologize. Peace to you all.

Borders and airspace need to be earned. Iraq stayed it's own country after it was defeated but we still controlled it's airspace. The way Palestine demands things like that is like when you hold your brothers arms because he kept hitting you and he say he just wants his arms back so he can move freely and as soon as you let them go he starts hitting you again.

Yes there are bad things done by both sides but I cannot see it any other way than the Palestine side being at the root of it.

Like a little brother who will not stop pestering his older brother. Sure you may feel sorry for him when stronger big brother physically dominates him but you don't feel sorry for long because you know the little brother can stop it at any time by stopping his pestering.

I take no offense to your words. I've been in these debates for years and I know how emotional those that look mostly to the Palestinian plight can get.

You have a great Thanksgiving as well.

Texaggie7nine said:

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I have no Christian based support of them. I don't believe in end times. I don't even think the US should be sending them or any of the countrise over there nearly as much money as we do. I don't think it's our business how Israel defends itself.

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It's not all self defense. That's the part of this objection that's so poorly thought. They are doing things that do not facilitate their protection that are cruel.

I know you don't buy into the extreme but hypothetically if most of the Palestinians in the west bank had no intention of ever being at peace while the Jewish state existed at all and would do every possible deceiving thing to destroy them and kill as many as possible. If that were the case would you say what they are doing still did not do anything buy endanger them more?

To add to Texaggie7nine's points, I shall point out the fact that the PLO was founded in 1964. Three years before the Six Day War and the resulting Israeli "occupation".

This is defintely difficult situation because the anger and hate is so far reaching and deep seated. Before the Iraq war, Had sister in-law dating a Turkish Muslism who went to University of Houston getting his MBA. Nice guy, very kind hearted (not radical at the time). Whenever we brought up Israel and Jews- he went from 0 to a 10 on a scale of hate for them. Even though he had not been in the general region, been to Israel (He grew up in Turkey- not too far away).

Surprised me, he would be kind and calm, and if it was mentioned Israel/ Jew his tone was Kill them All (only half joking), them *******s. When I asked why he had such anger for the Jews, he did not really have specific answer other than they are bad.

My Thought- if he is so angry at Jews from 2000 miles away in Istanbul, Turkey. How much more so for those who live directly with them- Palestians.

Posted in another post, defintely lean toward Israel side . But also recognize Retired Ags and other comments are also valid. Bad, cruel behavior with no purpose is not good. Israel actions at times, make things worse.

But this picture does also show that the neighbors in the surrounding areas- do not want Israel there. They could easily solve the issue of Palestinians. But they want the problem to exist. Thorn in side of Israel.

To me it is miracle that Israel is still in existance today, they made it this long.

I knew American Christians would get blamed at some point on this thread.

Both sides are messed up. There won't be peace in that region unless the end times happen.

Frok said:

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I knew American Christians would get blamed at some point on this thread.

Both sides are messed up. There won't be peace in that region unless the end times happen.

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I find it intersting how Jews claim to be from Issac and Muslims are from Ishmael.

Message to Hagar (mother of Ishmael, slave to Abraham) Genesis 16 11-12 Besides," the LORD'S messenger said to her: "You are now pregnant and shall bear a son; you shall name him Ishmael, For the LORD has heard you, God has answered you. He shall be a wild ass of a man, his hand against everyone, and everyone's hand against him; In opposition to all his kin shall he encamp."

From Christian and Jewish perspective (we claim to follow Isaac), seems about right from Muslims.

Question, have you read "The Great War for Civilization" by Robert Fisk? I read it and found it to be quite enlightening. He has a very clear agenda that is different than my own in some ways. Nevertheless, I noted what I found to be off and learned from other parts. Very good book.