Palestine - Military Court Watch

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PacifistAg
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AG
While in Ramallah, we met with an organization called Military Court Watch. This is a legal organization that monitors Palestinian children in the Israeli military court system.

Some notes:
  • Since 1967, over 750,000 Palestinians have been detained/prosecuted under the military court system
  • More than 10 Palestinians protesting is illegal. Organizer can receive up to 1 year in prison, even if the protest is nonviolent
  • According to rules of occupation, an occupying military's primary objective is to keep the occupied population safe. This has been flipped upside down with the creation of the illegal settlements. As a result, the IDF now focuses on keeping the settlers safe, often at the expense of the Palestinian people.
  • The IDF has been extremely effective in this task. In 2012, zero West Bank settlers were killed by Palestinians. The 7-yr average is roughly 5 per year. To put this into perspective, imagine the US created illegal settlements in Afghanistan and moved 600,000 Americans over there. The numbers killed would be exponentially higher. The IDF has been extremely successful in this task.
  • Primary means used to keep order are mass intimidation and collective punishment. They will threaten to pull work permits in order to create new informants
  • Children as young as 12 will typically be sentenced to 3 months in military prison for throwing stones, even if the stone is thrown only at the wall
  • Process for finding rock throwers: will immediately start with males 10-30 yrs of age from the nearest village. Guilt is unimportant. Often individuals will received "suspended sentences", creating a sense of dread of even going outdoors. If someone with suspended sentence is rounded up in a rock throwing arrest, often receive 5 yr sentence. Dust on hands is also one of the primary sources of "evidence" used.
  • Night raids are another form of intimidation being used to subdue the population. In a village north of Ramallah, there were 16 night raids in one month. Only 1 person was arrested in total, but these night raids will force all the residents to be awake for much of the night. The raids were conducted during the month the Palestinian children were going through their academic testing, and were simply a means to adversely impact the children during this time. There was no credible evidence to justify the raids, and as mentioned, only 1 arrest was even made during the 16 different night raids.
  • The military court system has a 99.74% conviction rate, which calls into question the "justness" of the system.
  • There are currently approximately 440 children in the Israeli military court system.
  • Settlements are considered a war crime under international law
  • Unlawful transfer of prisoners is a war crime under international law. Under international law that Israel is a signatory of, if a civilian is arrested in an occupied territory, their trial and detainment MUST take place in the occupied territory. Currently, 90% of convicted Palestinians are moved to Israeli prisons outside the occupied territories. This is considered a war crime.
  • US complicit in this due to providing a blanket Security Council veto for all things related to Israel
  • International Criminal Court has jurisdiction due to Palestine becoming signatory. Most obvious cases are the settlements and unlawful transfer of prisoners. Neither side denies these are taking place. Israel is not a signatory to the ICC, but can still be indicted due to the crimes taking place in an area that is a signatory.

I wanted to devote a special section just to Administrative Detention. This is a practice allowed under international law, but only under very strict circumstances. The example given to us was a fictional country's leader dies. As a result, the leaders of various factions start inciting their groups leading to destabilization of the country. The government could legally detain the faction leaders for up to 6 months in order to remove the catalysts for the destabilization.

This is not how Israel is using AD though. Israel is using this in a horribly broad way. The attorney we met with told us of a man who was wanted by the IDF. He was eventually tracked down and killed. The Israeli government then placed his two sons under AD. They were 14 and 16 years old. The two sons were held for 6 months, and as they were packing their belongings to leave, the Israeli government renewed their AD for another 6 months. Both sons ended up serving 18 months in Israeli prison, without charges ever being filed. The practice of renewing AD at the last second is a means of psychological warfare. They are basically telling these kids that "if you dare resist us, this is what your life will become". Keep in mind, these kids were not even suspected of violating any law.

Currently, there are 12 children being held under AD. The record for one person being held, without charges, under AD is 8 years. Yes, someone was forced to serve 8 years in prison without ever being charged with a crime.

I will say that this meeting was the first day that I got back to our residence in Hebron and had lost all hope. When someone who is intimately aware of the powers at play here on the international level details all of this, it leaves one with this feeling of "how can we even defeat this?" He discussed a lot of the geopolitical issues at play and the international obstacles to peace, and it was quite disheartening. But, our delegation leader gave us a quote that evening in our daily "reflection" time that really helped. It was a quote from Mother Theresa: "God does not require that we be successful only that we be faithful." That completely changed my perspective. We may not be successful, but that isn't going to stop me from being faithful to the way of Christ.

If you would like to know more about Military Court Watch, here is their site: http://militarycourtwatch.org/index.php
PacifistAg
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AG
BTW, I know it's a lot of words, but there's just so much information and this wasn't really something that could be conveyed through pictures. I do hope that you will take the time to read it.
Texaggie7nine
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Hard to read anything about Israel from someone who if they were the leader of it, would quickly allow for the destruction of the jewish state by all surrounding countries.
7nine
PacifistAg
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AG
Okay, then why even respond? I am simply trying to relay what I witnessed and learned while in Palestine. If you don't wish to read something because you don't like the source, then simply don't click on the thread. You can see what the subject is and who it is that started the thread. If you'd like to actually read and discuss the information, then I'd love to do so.
Texaggie7nine
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Because I tried to read it with an open mind but saw the agenda.
7nine
PacifistAg
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Texaggie7nine said:

Because I tried to read it with an open mind but saw the agenda.
You are absolutely right. I do have an agenda. My agenda is to oppose oppression and point it out where it is seen. My agenda is to relay information and experiences we received while on the ground in Palestine. But if you have an issue with how I present it, fine. The tone of your original post, though, is entirely unnecessary and based on a gross misunderstanding of my beliefs. Your first post made it clear you didn't read it with an open mind because you made it clear that the "source" was something you couldn't get past.

But, when you want to actually discuss something, I'll be here. I would prefer you not make this about me.
Texaggie7nine
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So who are you posting for the benifit of? Others that agree that no matter what an enemy is going to do to you you should just sit there and take it? I think anyone like that would already agree that Israel is an oppressor.
7nine
PacifistAg
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AG
Texaggie7nine said:

So who are you posting for the benifit of? Others that agree that no matter what an enemy is going to do to you you should just sit there and take it? I think anyone like that would already agree that Israel is an opptesor.
I'm posting for anyone that wants to have a honest, open and mutually respectful dialogue on the issue. We don't need to agree, but approaching it with a closed mind, as you did, does not facilitate dialogue.

This thread is about the information presented by Military Court Watch. If you would like to discuss that, then great. This isn't about Christian nonviolence. One does not need to be a pacifist to also condemn oppression. This is about the facts presented by Military Court Watch. Trying to make it about me and pacifism does nothing to help.
PacifistAg
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Here, I will try to get it going. Do you see any problem with the information presented as it relates to Israel's behavior? Do you have any issue with administrative detention, as used, or with the war crimes being committed?
Texaggie7nine
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When your neighbors raise their kids to want to die while killing you off? When they hide behind hospitals women and old people so that they can die in retaliation fire so they have more fodder for propaganda on how oppressed they are?

I don't think I have much room to judge them when I am not under that threat.
7nine
PacifistAg
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Texaggie7nine said:

When your neighbors raise their kids to want to die while killing you off? When they hide behind hospitals women and old people so that they can die in retaliation fire so they have more fodder for propaganda on how oppressed they are?

I don't think I have much room to judge them when I am not under that threat.
Their neighbors aren't raising their kids like that. In fact, I never once met a Palestinian that wanted their children to die or even attack an Israeli. The vast majority just want to live their lives in peace and with even a hint at some sort of equal treatment under the law. This was echoed by those we met with.

Then again, your last sentence could easily be turned around to the Palestinian side. How can you judge them when you don't live under the threat that they live under?

But, nothing you posted actually addressed the information provided, and didn't answer any of the questions I asked. Can you please answer those? Do you see no issue w/ a "justice" system that has a 99.74% conviction rate? Please address the actual information in the thread.
Texaggie7nine
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Just use some common sense. Who benefits most from a peace? Israel would. Israel has arab muslims living in there with equal protection except for voting rights. Israel would love a peace with Palestine. Why would Palestine not benifit from peace? Well most importantly they wouldn't have the land back that they demand. Jerusalem wouldn't be ruled by Muslims. They would no longer have the world of liberals crying out about their mistreatment and how mean Israel is. The UN would stop catering to them.

So why in the world would Israel be the one to prevent peace when they would fair much better if there was peace? And why would palestine be for peace when the would have to give up on all that they demand, and stop being the poor victim in the eyes of the UN?
7nine
PacifistAg
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So you aren't going to actually address the subject of this thread?

As for your claim that Israel wants peace, I disagree. At least in terms of the political class. The political class of both sides really have no desire for peace because it just helps them solidify their power. The political class on both sides get to play the victim card and engage in fearmongering of the other side. I do believe that the average Israeli and average Palestinian want the conflict to end. They may disagree with the best way to achieve that, but I think most are tired of the unnecessary death and destruction that both sides are to blame for.
Martin Q. Blank
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Quote:

that both sides are to blame for.
You keep saying this. What do Palestinians do to deserve blame?
PacifistAg
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AG
Martin Q. Blank said:


Quote:

that both sides are to blame for.
You keep saying this. What do Palestinians do to deserve blame?
The cycle of violence takes two. Both sides are answering evil with evil. Both sides are complicit in the cycle of violence.
Martin Q. Blank
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RetiredAg said:

Martin Q. Blank said:


Quote:

that both sides are to blame for.
You keep saying this. What do Palestinians do to deserve blame?
The cycle of violence takes two. Both sides are answering evil with evil. Both sides are complicit in the cycle of violence.
I'm looking for bullet points like your OP. Is it 12 year olds throwing rocks at check points?
Texaggie7nine
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Quote:

So you aren't going to actually address the subject of this thread?

I did. I cannot judge of any of those things are truly unjust unless I know every single case and every single person affected by it. I'm not just going to look at stats and say "well that has to be unjust". All I have to go by is what common sense tells me from the facts. I know for a fact Palestinians voted in a terrorist organization to lead them when they had the opportunity to select their own government and make ways towards peace.

You say the Israeli political class wants to keep the conflict up for power? What power? Power over their own people? They are willing to keep up a conflict that puts the entire nation at risk when you have nations like Iran gaining nuclear technology, just so they can keep their political position because they are afraid if there is peace then they will lose their job?
7nine
PacifistAg
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Quote:

I did. I cannot judge of any of those things are truly unjust unless I know every single case and every single person affected by it. I'm not just going to look at stats and say "well that has to be unjust". All I have to go by is what common sense tells me from the facts. I know for a fact Palestinians voted in a terrorist organization to lead them when they had the opportunity to select their own government and make ways towards peace.
This is such a cop out. You can't say that holding someone without charges for 8 years is unjust? You can't say that holding teenagers in prison for 18 months for no reason other than the fact that their father was wanted is unjust? Seriously? Using your reasoning, you can never say anything in this world is unjust.

As for voting for a terrorist organization, that's the funny thing about perspective. To the other side, men like Netanyahu are terrorists. At the very least, they are war criminals. So, we have a terrorist organization vs war criminals.


Quote:

You say the Israeli political class wants to keep the conflict up for power? What power? Power over their own people? They are willing to keep up a conflict that puts the entire nation at risk when you have nations like Iran gaining nuclear technology, just so they can keep their political position because they are afraid if there is peace then they will lose their job?
Yes, I believe people like Netanyahu want to maintain their political power, and they want the conflict to continue in order to do so. It's not something unique to this situation. Political powers throughout history have played up fear of the "other side" in order to maintain their position.

We had Israelis say this very thing to us. Of those we met, on both sides, none trusted their political leaders.
Texaggie7nine
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BB is amazing. I've listened to him speak and read his writing extensively and the man is one of the best things to ever happen for Jerusalem. Wish we had as brilliant of leaders over here.

If he is a reason for the continuing conflict then why didn't it get better when he went out of power? They elected in their own version of Obama there with Barak. He made things extensively worse.
7nine
PacifistAg
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Oh brother. Okay. It doesn't look like we're going to actually discuss the subject of the thread, and clearly have different views on a war criminal like Netanyahu. There's really no point to continue, especially since you seem incapable of calling anything in this world unjust, unless of course you know every single person impacted by it.
Texaggie7nine
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Of course we aren't. You are always going to be apt to support anyone who isn't an aggressor, even if they are deceiving about it because you never see any just reason for aggression. The palestinians play people like you like fiddles.
7nine
schmendeler
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Texaggie7nine said:

Of course we aren't. You are always going to be apt to support anyone who isn't an aggressor, even if they are deceiving about it because you never see any just reason for aggression. The palestinians play people like you like fiddles.
does netanyahu and his group play people like you like fiddles?
Texaggie7nine
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schmendeler said:

Texaggie7nine said:

Of course we aren't. You are always going to be apt to support anyone who isn't an aggressor, even if they are deceiving about it because you never see any just reason for aggression. The palestinians play people like you like fiddles.
does netanyahu and his group play people like you like fiddles?
Well you see to make sure that doesn't happen. What you do is not only listen to what they say but watch what they do.
7nine
PacifistAg
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Quote:

What you do is not only listen to what they say but watch what they do.
Agreed. When did you go over there and see what they do? Or are you just relying on media reports? I've been and that's helped my understanding tremendously, at least as it pertains to the West Bank. I've talked to people on both sides. I've seen actions on both sides. I've been harassed by Israeli soldiers. I've been physically assaulted by Israeli settlers. Did you know the Israeli government is clamping down on peace activists from coming into the country?

And how can you make such a judgement of whether the Israeli government's actions are "just" or not if you do not know every single case and every single person impacted? Or does that standard not apply now? How can you be sure you aren't being played like a fiddle if you are incapable of making any judgement on the actions of either side?

It's just odd. I'm willing to call out the wrong actions of Palestinians. I'm willing to call out the wrong actions of the Israelis. You are entirely incapable of calling out the wrong actions of the Israelis, yet seem willing to point out the wrong actions of the Palestinians. Yet, I'm the one being "played like a fiddle"?
Texaggie7nine
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I watch who the palestinians choose as leaders. I read and listen to what they say. I see how even muslim countries want no part of Palestinians. I have spoken to people who have lived there.

Are there some a hole Jewish settlers, I have no doubt there are. But overall looking at the actions of each side it is far in the favor of Israel in rationality.
7nine
PacifistAg
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Texaggie7nine said:

I watch who the palestinians choose as leaders. I read and listen to what they say. I see how even muslim countries want no part of Palestinians. I have spoken to people who have lived there.

Are there some a hole Jewish settlers, I have no doubt there are. But overall looking at the actions of each side it is far in the favor of Israel in rationality.
But you haven't actually seen anything. You are simply relying on media reports. You have no actual clue about the day-to-day life of people there. I posted a list of actions, on this thread, that are being done. But, you immediately dismiss them because they are critical of Israel. You are blinded by your own biases here, because any evidence contrary to those biases is immediately dismissed.

You don't know the actions of either side, and you clearly have no desire to learn about them. If you did, you wouldn't have approached the information above with the closed mind that you did.
PacifistAg
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Quote:

But overall looking at the actions of each side it is far in the favor of Israel in rationality.
How can you make such a judgement? Your own standard above doesn't allow it. You have not studied every single case. You have no idea how every single person is impacted.

Your standard is changing, which is exposing your hypocrisy. In reality, you will bend your standard in whatever way is necessary to blindly support Israel.
Texaggie7nine
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Quote:

You are simply relying on media reports.
HA. If I did that I would hate Israel. The media doesn't report fairly on what happens. The media is completely anti-Israel.

I've followed the conflict for at least 17 years. I've had to search long and hard to find actual Palestinian attacks on Israel, of which there have been countless in the past 20 years.

BB has offered to take away all settlements if it would immediately end the conflict. Palestine won't accept it because they consider all of Israel to be an illegal settlement.

I have read the transcripts of Palestinian leaders when they speak to their people for years. They want no peace until Israel is gone. They repeat it. They play nice to the media and the media buys it.
7nine
PacifistAg
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AG
Oh, and one last note about who "they elect". The last presidential elections in Palestine was 11 years ago. I'm assuming you are alluding to Hamas' election in the Gaza Strip in 2007. My comments on Palestine are based solely on the West Bank. Hamas is not in control of the West Bank.
PacifistAg
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AG

Quote:

BB has offered to take away all settlements if it would immediately end the conflict. Palestine won't accept it because they consider all of Israel to be an illegal settlement.
False: http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Politics/Netanyahu-I-wont-evacuate-settlements-339353

The settlements are the core of the problem for every single Palestinian we met. It's not the existence of Israel. It's the settlements that continue to be placed in the West Bank. Your statement shows just how little you know of the situation.

The fact that you are incapable of saying that holding someone in prison for 8 years without a single charge being filed is "unjust" exposes your biases for what they are. Of course, you don't actually hold such a standard that you referenced above. You are just holding it for this because it conveniently allows you to excuse Israeli behavior.
Texaggie7nine
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I purposefully didn't just say "elect" I said "choose" as leaders because there are Palestinian leaders in both areas.

The leaders in the West Bank also do not recognize Israel's right to exist.
7nine
PacifistAg
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The city government of Hebron invites Christian Peacemaker Teams to operate there as international observers.

The Israeli government actively seeks to prevent peace activists from entering the country.

Yeah....sure it's the Israeli government that wants peace. But, you are clearly relying on the media for your information, because when facts are relayed that run counter to the media narrative, you simply shove your fingers in your ears and accuse others of being played like a fiddle.
Texaggie7nine
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Quote:

The settlements are the core of the problem for every single Palestinian we met. It's not the existence of Israel. It's the settlements that continue to be placed in the West Bank. Your statement shows just how little you know of the situation.
Many settlements are in areas that weren't being used. They are on areas that Palestinians cannot occupy because it poses too great a military threat.

Of course BB has no intention of removing the settlements because he knows what the Palestinian leaders answers were.
7nine
Texaggie7nine
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RetiredAg said:

The city government of Hebron invites Christian Peacemaker Teams to operate there as international observers.

The Israeli government actively seeks to prevent peace activists from entering the country.

Yeah....sure it's the Israeli government that wants peace. But, you are clearly relying on the media for your information, because when facts are relayed that run counter to the media narrative, you simply shove your fingers in your ears and accuse others of being played like a fiddle.
What media? For the love of all that is holy, go google search anything about the issue. 99.9% of any media is against Israel. What media are you talking about?
7nine
PacifistAg
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AG
Quote:


Of course BB has no intention of removing the settlements because he knows what the Palestinian leaders answers were.

LOL keep moving those goalposts.

Well, I'm off for the evening. I'm hoping someone actually wants to have an actual discussion, as it is clear you have no such desire to. I understand though. I mean, you have put yourself in a situation where you can't call any action "unjust". Have a fantastic Thanksgiving.
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