wbt5845 said:

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canadiaggie said:

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wbt5845 said:

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RetiredAg said:

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wbt5845 said:

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When you start a war and lose, there are consequences.

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Ah, so you believe in moral relativism? Got it. Might makes right. Losing a war 50 years ago means you can be oppressed today.

Thanks for clarifying. Committing war crimes today is justified because they won a war 50 years ago.

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Use whatever phrases you like.

Israel rules that land. They rule it because Jordan lost the Six Day War.

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The holocaust would have been cool if Germany won World War 2?

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If the Jews were really like Nazis, there wouldn't be millions of "Palestinians" living as citizens of Israel and representing in the Knesset. The comparisons of Israel to Nazi Germany continues to be laughable.

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Those Arabs do not enjoy full equality with the Jewish Israelis.

I think fully equivocating the Israelis and Arabs is very wrong, but excusing Israel's abuses and the impact that has on the region is also very wrong.

No doubt. I think Buster was suggesting that the use of the phrase ethnic cleansing brings an implication of genocide. The words themselves don't mean the same things. Genos is used to denote a people group one joins by birth... such as a race, or an inherited religion like Judaism. Ethnos is a people group that can be joined, literally a nation, or any common group or class of people (serfs could be an ethnos, regardless of country, for example). Being an American is ethnos, and could be genos (we'd say naturalized vs natural to make the distinction).

Ethnic cleansing is precisely what is happening, it is a very, very etymologically accurate term for this. They are cleansing an area of anyone not of a specific nation. And, since they're doing it without regard to the genos of the people (Arabs can live in Israel, and not all in Palestine are the same ethnos - some are Christians, for example) genocide is not appropriate or applicable.

Yes they do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

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Israel's Declaration of Independence called for the establishment of a Jewish state with equality of social and political rights, irrespective of religion, race, or sex.

The rights of citizens are guaranteed by a set of basic laws (Israel does not have a written constitution). Although this set of laws does not explicitly include the term "right to equality", the Israeli Supreme Court has consistently interpreted "Basic Law: Human Dignity and Liberty" and "Basic Law: Freedom of Occupation (1994)" as guaranteeing equal rights for all Israeli citizens.

The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs states that "Arab Israelis are citizens of Israel with equal rights" and states that "The only legal distinction between Arab and Jewish citizens is not one of rights, but rather of civic duty. Since Israel's establishment, Arab citizens have been exempted from compulsory service in the Israel Defense Forces (IDF)." Druze and Circassians are drafted into the Israeli army, while other Arabs may serve voluntarily; however, only a very small number of Arabs choose to volunteer for the Israeli army.

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Now, the Arabs who have refused Israeli citizenship are another matter. And some Arabs who are citizens say they are "second class citizens" because it's a Jewish state. But they are akin to blacks in this country claiming they are second class citizens.

wbt5845 said:

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canadiaggie said:

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wbt5845 said:

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RetiredAg said:

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wbt5845 said:

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When you start a war and lose, there are consequences.

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Ah, so you believe in moral relativism? Got it. Might makes right. Losing a war 50 years ago means you can be oppressed today.

Thanks for clarifying. Committing war crimes today is justified because they won a war 50 years ago.

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Use whatever phrases you like.

Israel rules that land. They rule it because Jordan lost the Six Day War.

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The holocaust would have been cool if Germany won World War 2?

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If the Jews were really like Nazis, there wouldn't be millions of "Palestinians" living as citizens of Israel and representing in the Knesset. The comparisons of Israel to Nazi Germany continues to be laughable.

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Strawman. I'm attacking your idiot premise that war justifies consequences upon the defeated, not comparing Israel to Nazi Germany. Stick to what I said, not what you wanted me to say.

wbt5845 said:

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Yes they do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

Quote:

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Israel's Declaration of Independence called for the establishment of a Jewish state with equality of social and political rights, irrespective of religion, race, or sex.

The rights of citizens are guaranteed by a set of basic laws (Israel does not have a written constitution). Although this set of laws does not explicitly include the term "right to equality", the Israeli Supreme Court has consistently interpreted "Basic Law: Human Dignity and Liberty" and "Basic Law: Freedom of Occupation (1994)" as guaranteeing equal rights for all Israeli citizens.

The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs states that "Arab Israelis are citizens of Israel with equal rights" and states that "The only legal distinction between Arab and Jewish citizens is not one of rights, but rather of civic duty. Since Israel's establishment, Arab citizens have been exempted from compulsory service in the Israel Defense Forces (IDF)." Druze and Circassians are drafted into the Israeli army, while other Arabs may serve voluntarily; however, only a very small number of Arabs choose to volunteer for the Israeli army.

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Now, the Arabs who have refused Israeli citizenship are another matter. And some Arabs who are citizens say they are "second class citizens" because it's a Jewish state. But they are akin to blacks in this country claiming they are second class citizens.

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Of course they're second class citizens. They would outnumber Israeli Jews if they were equal and then Israel would cease to be a Jewish state. Israel has a vested interest in that.

k2aggie07 said:

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Maybe they don't want to exterminate them. They just want them to be gone from their land, and if that means they die, they die.

This "cleansing" is happening on religious lines -- which, oddly enough, are also ethnic. (The Greek word for Gentiles used in the NT is "Of the [other] nations" -- literally ethnos).

Ethnic cleansing is perhaps the most accurate way possible to describe the purification of a certain area of gentiles.

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Exactly right. Also, I wanted to point out that it was an Israeli that used the term "ethnic cleansing". The current policies are meant to cleanse the area of a certain ethnic group. That's really undeniable, especially after having seen it on the ground and hearing from both Israeli and Palestinian.

I do get the hesitation in using that term because we typically link it to mass killings. But, I'd argue this is still ethnic cleansing, and it is being done in a way that allows them to keep their blanket US Security Council veto on anything critical of Israel.

wbt5845 said:

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Yes they do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

Quote:

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Israel's Declaration of Independence called for the establishment of a Jewish state with equality of social and political rights, irrespective of religion, race, or sex.

The rights of citizens are guaranteed by a set of basic laws (Israel does not have a written constitution). Although this set of laws does not explicitly include the term "right to equality", the Israeli Supreme Court has consistently interpreted "Basic Law: Human Dignity and Liberty" and "Basic Law: Freedom of Occupation (1994)" as guaranteeing equal rights for all Israeli citizens.

The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs states that "Arab Israelis are citizens of Israel with equal rights" and states that "The only legal distinction between Arab and Jewish citizens is not one of rights, but rather of civic duty. Since Israel's establishment, Arab citizens have been exempted from compulsory service in the Israel Defense Forces (IDF)." Druze and Circassians are drafted into the Israeli army, while other Arabs may serve voluntarily; however, only a very small number of Arabs choose to volunteer for the Israeli army.

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Now, the Arabs who have refused Israeli citizenship are another matter. And some Arabs who are citizens say they are "second class citizens" because it's a Jewish state. But they are akin to blacks in this country claiming they are second class citizens.

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This nation was not explicitly founded as a "white nation." Israel was founded as a Jewish nation. Arab citizens of Israel may legally have equal rights, but that does not mean practically that they are given equal rights. This article (yes, it has an agenda), is an interesting view of the other side.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2012/05/24/opinion/not-all-israeli-citizens-are-equal.html

https://twitter.com/hashtag/Israelburns?src=hash

#IsraelBurns

Yes, there are people on both sides who engage in vile rhetoric.

https://twitter.com/hashtag/deathtopalestine?s=09

wbt5845 said:

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BTW - I help design weapon systems used by the IDF to protect the nation of Israel. I love my job and am proud to be able to play some small part in protecting the people of Israel.

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I hope they are spending our tax dollars judiciously.

wbt5845 said:

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RetiredAg said:

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Yes, there are people on both sides who engage in vile rhetoric.

https://twitter.com/hashtag/deathtopalestine?s=09

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So it's hateful to post videos of their own people speaking hateful rhetoric?

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I'm saying people on both sides are engaging in hateful and vile rhetoric. Whether it's a twitter hashtag or the "Death to Muslims" that was spraypainted on the side of a kindergarten in Hebron, it is vile. This incessant need to turn a blind eye to Israeli abuses does nothing to promote peace.

schmendeler said:

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wbt5845 said:

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BTW - I help design weapon systems used by the IDF to protect the nation of Israel. I love my job and am proud to be able to play some small part in protecting the people of Israel.

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I hope they are spending our tax dollars judiciously.

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Welfare....international style.

Ethnic cleansing has a connotation of using violence to get people to leave. I guess it is this term used in juxtaposition with other activities that also used the term that causes me the most trouble.

The fact is that Israel is using a systematic approach of economic repression and encouraged relocation of Jews to facilitate a massive expulsion of people, while carefully trying to avoid violence.

Call that whatever you want, but it is very different from, for example, the situation in Syria, or the above mentioned German expulsion after WWII, where you create an environment where people are fleeing for their lives.

If you are going to use the term, I think you have to put in a caveat. Non-violent ethnic cleansing just doesn't have the same ring.

I wouldn't exactly call it nonviolent. They are demolishing homes, schools, medical clinics, burning "nature reserves" to destroy grazing, constant night raids as means to instill terror in people and settlers are basically allowed to use violence as they wish.

As stated before though, the term was one that was used by an Israeli. He used it because they are attempting to cleanse the area of an ethnic group. You are right in that it immediately makes us think of places like Syria, Kosovo, etc, but I wouldn't say that precludes us from using it here. It fits the definition.

Disregard.

If the Israelis have access to superior weapons, perhaps Hamas should try not starting fights with them.

BonfireNerd04 said:

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If the Israelis have access to superior weapons, perhaps Hamas should try not starting fights with them.

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That statement presumes that Hamas doesn't want to provoke Israel into invading Gaza.