Palestine - Jordan Valley

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PacifistAg
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The trip to the Jordan Valley was eye-opening and heartbreaking. This is the area where you can find Jericho and the Dead Sea. We visited a Palestinian village and an Israeli settlement while in the area. Our guide was an Israeli man that was involved with the Israeli Committee Against Home Demolitions (ICAHD).

Some notes on the area:
  • The Jordan Valley makes up approximately 1/3 of the West Bank. In 1967, the population was approximately 320,000. Now, the population sits around 56,000, with the bulk of those residing in Jericho.
  • Jordan Valley used to make up 20% of the West Bank population. Now just 2%.
  • 10,000 settlers consume 6.5 times more water than the 56,000 Palestinians
  • 95% of the Jordan Valley is classified Area C, which is under full Israeli military control. Area A = Palestinian control. Area B = joint Israeli/Palestinian control

This is a region that, for thousands of years, has been fed by natural springs. Our guide was telling us that in other areas of the West Bank, when the Israelis want to build another illegal settlement, they will demolish the existing Palestinian village and build on that site. In the Jordan Valley, however, their method is far more disturbing. Most of these villages are built on the springs. Instead of going in and kicking out the Palestinians, as they do elsewhere, they will actually build the settlement next to the Palestinian village. Then they will drill down into the water table and pump out the water that feeds the springs. This has caused those springs to dry up.

Here is one of the pumping stations that our ICAHD guide called "evidence of ethnic cleansing":



This is the settlement of Fatsa'el. See how lush and green everything is. This is a result of pumping out the water and using it solely for the settlement and it's date farms:






This is the Palestinian village of Fasayil that is literally right next door:





Now, since the Palestinian's source of water, which is primarily the springs, has been diverted to the settlements, Palestinian agriculture in the region has effectively died off. There are vast date farms in the region though. These are run by the settlements, however. For those that aren't too familiar with date trees, as was my case, date trees require a tremendous amount of water. For a region where water is already scarce, these settlement dates only exacerbate the problem.



These date farms primarily employ Palestinians and Thai workers. Since the Thai workers come over as part of governmental agreements, they are typically paid around the standard minimum wage in Israel, which is roughly 250 shekels/day. Our guide also said that the standard minimum age of a worker is usually no lower than 14. But, when it comes to the Palestinian workers, they are paid an average of 60-80 shekels/day, and children as young as 8 are being employed on these farms.

Here you can see the more of the effects of the settlements pumping out the water for their own use:



These channels used to be full of water 24/7/365. When we asked the goat herder (not sure what they are actually called) if he remembers the last time he saw water in there, he said around April. When asked when was the last time they were always full, and he said "oh, that was in the days of our grandfathers". As already mentioned, this has resulted in killing Palestinian agriculture, so many have shifted to goat herding.



One of the major problems they are now running into is with regards to grazing land. Obviously, this is an area with little vegetation, so grazing lands are vitally important. What the IDF has begun doing is to declare grazing areas a "firing zone", forcing the Palestinians out of that land. Another tactic used by the IDF is to declare the grazing lands a "nature reserve". The telling thing about that, however, is that when the Palestinians continue to graze the land, the IDF will come in and burn all the vegetation. That is not a "nature reserve" then.

You can see water tanks in some of the above pictures of the Palestinian village. Because their water has been stolen, they now have to have it shipped in in those tanks. This has created an enormous cost burden for the Palestinians that remain there. Water has become approximately 1/3 of their living expenses. It is costly to bring water in because road closures by the IDF increase the distance these water trucks must go, which drives up the cost. But, that's not been sufficient for the Israeli side. The IDF has, in the past couple years, begun to either seize the water trucks or to shoot holes into them.

One may ask why don't the Palestinians just drill into the water table as well. Under Israeli law, Israelis can drill down up to 800m for water, but Palestinians can only drill down to 150m. Since this is also the area we find the Dead Sea, the water at 150m contains large amounts of salt.



On one positive note, the BDS movement has been very successful in putting a dent in the settlement date farms. The Jordan Valley settlement farms have seen the biggest impact of BDS, as many European businesses will no longer buy settlement dates. The settlements have tried to get around this by channeling them through 3rd parties so as to get the settlement "label" removed from their products. Now, unlike most of the settlers in other areas of the West Bank, Jordan Valley settlers tend to not be Orthodox. These illegal settlements are heavily subsidized by the Israeli government, so there are a lot of financial incentives to move to them. Jordan Valley settlers tend to fall into the "financial incentives" group of settlers, and many honestly believe that the date farms are good for the Palestinians. They feel victimized by BDS because their rationale is "what will these people do for work if we get rid of the settlements"? Of course, this is flawed thinking and was similarly used in apartheid South Africa to justify their system.

Home demolitions are another major issue in the West Bank, and specifically the Jordan Valley. There were 70 home demolitions in February alone. Abu Sakr, a Jordan Valley Solidarity activist, has had his home demolished 8 times. These demolitions occur because these homes, schools, medical clinics (and yes, they also demolish schools and clinics) are built without permits. The catch, though, is that it is virtually impossible for a Palestinian to receive a building permit. This is seen throughout the entire West Bank.

Another issue in this region is the Hamra checkpoint. This is a checkpoint south of Nablus. One could simply go around the checkpoint by driving several hours out of the way. The purpose of this checkpoint is simply to harass. It is not uncommon for women to give birth at the checkpoint, as even women in labor will be held at the checkpoint for hours at a time. Our ICAHD guide had asked a military commander at the checkpoint one time about what the policy is regarding when the checkpoint is open and who can pass through. The military commanders answer is telling and reflective of the overall mindset we saw in our two weeks: "We have no official policy, and it's effective."

The Jordan Valley was heartbreaking because what we witnessed was a concerted effort to drive out the inhabitants by making their lives simply unlivable. It is why the population has plummeted in the area. Our ICAHD guide did not hide his thoughts on it. This man, an Israeli, bluntly calls it "ethnic cleansing". He said they are brilliant with how they do it because without body bags, people won't pay attention to what's happening. But, whether it's stealing the water and drying up thousand year old springs, burning grazing lands the IDF designates as a "nature reserve", unnecessary checkpoints, or destroying water tanks, the intent of the Israeli government here is crystal clear.

If you would like to know more about the work being done by Jordan Valley Solidarity, a nonviolent peace organization, feel free to check out their website: http://jordanvalleysolidarity.org/
wbt5845
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A Pan Am 727 flight, waiting for start clearance in Munich, overheard the following:

Lufthansa (in German): "Ground, what is our start clearance time?"

Ground (in English): "If you want an answer you must speak in English."

Lufthansa (in English): "I am a German, flying a German airplane, in Germany. Why must I speak English?"

Unknown voice from another plane (in a beautiful British accent): "Because you lost the bloody war!"


PacifistAg
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Huh? Care to clarify exactly what you're saying?
wbt5845
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When you start a war and lose, there are consequences.
PacifistAg
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wbt5845 said:

When you start a war and lose, there are consequences.
Ah, so you believe in moral relativism? Got it. Might makes right. Losing a war 50 years ago means you can be oppressed today.

Thanks for clarifying. Committing war crimes today is justified because they won a war 50 years ago.
PacifistAg
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Nmvd. My apologies for a comment that was not constructive.
wbt5845
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RetiredAg said:

wbt5845 said:

When you start a war and lose, there are consequences.
Ah, so you believe in moral relativism? Got it. Might makes right. Losing a war 50 years ago means you can be oppressed today.

Thanks for clarifying. Committing war crimes today is justified because they won a war 50 years ago.
Use whatever phrases you like.

Israel rules that land. They rule it because Jordan lost the Six Day War.
PacifistAg
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wbt5845 said:

RetiredAg said:

wbt5845 said:

When you start a war and lose, there are consequences.
Ah, so you believe in moral relativism? Got it. Might makes right. Losing a war 50 years ago means you can be oppressed today.

Thanks for clarifying. Committing war crimes today is justified because they won a war 50 years ago.
Use whatever phrases you like.

Israel rules that land. They rule it because Jordan lost the Six Day War.
Okay, thank you for at least being fine w/ the label of "moral relativist".

Do you honestly see no issue with the treatment that Palestinians in the Jordan Valley are receiving today? The IDF burning all the vegetation in a "nature reserve" simply to keep Palestinians from grazing there. Settlements, which are technically a war crime, where they literally steal the water right out from under the Palestinians. Different laws for Israeli than for Palestinian. Checkpoints meant for no reason other than to harass, to the point where women give birth at them simply because they aren't allowed to pass.

Do you honestly have no issue with that? Do you not see that as immoral? You are okay with ethnic cleansing and apartheid because a war happened 50 years ago? Are you that okay with veering away from Christian teaching just so you can stand by your moral relativism?
Ernest Tucker
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Noticed lots of trees and green in the backgrounds and borders of your Palestinian shots. Was this how close the Jewish settlement was? Looks to be the same town.
wbt5845
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Hey RetiredAg - I know you are passionate about this and I respect that.

I work with the IDF and am passionate about the Jews right to exist. And the fact their neighbors have tried to kill every Jewish man, woman and child several times in the last few decades.

In Israel, those of Jordanian descent can live and work and own property. Hell, they can be elected to office. In Jordan, you cannot be a citizen, work, or own property if you are Jewish.

Seriously, there is no comparison of the human rights afforded by Israel vs. the other Middle Eastern countries. There are 1.7 MM "Palestinians" (to use your term) living in Israel. There are 0 Jews living in Jordan. There are 0 Jews living in Saudi Arabia. There are less than 50 Jews living in Syria.
PacifistAg
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But, if your position is that all is acceptable because a war occurred 50 years ago, then there's really no point in discussing anything related to this with you. Any offense, any crime, any violation will be defended with the "might makes right" defense. No dialogue that may help foster a greater understanding will occur with such a position. So, have a great day.
PacifistAg
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Quote:

Hey RetiredAg - I know you are passionate about this and I respect that.
Yes, I'm passionate about basic human rights being violated. I'm passionate about people being oppressed and war crimes being committed.


Quote:

I work with the IDF and am passionate about the Jews right to exist. And the fact their neighbors have tried to kill every Jewish man, woman and child several times in the last few decades.
I never once heard a Palestinian voice a desire to exterminate the Jewish people. I never once heard a single Palestinian put this conflict in religious terms. They were forced out of their homes in 1948, and they want their homes back. I only saw one side working to eliminate the other.


Quote:

In Israel, those of Jordanian descent can live and work and own property. Hell, they can be elected to office. In Jordan, you cannot be a citizen, work, or own property if you are Jewish.
Okay? That has absolutely nothing to do with the treatment of Palestinians in the occupied territories.
Quote:


Seriously, there is no comparison of the human rights afforded by Israel vs. the other Middle Eastern countries. There are 1.7 MM "Palestinians" (to use your term) living in Israel. There are 0 Jews living in Jordan. There are 0 Jews living in Saudi Arabia. There are less than 50 Jews living in Syria.
More relativism. How about both sides stop violating the other? And "Palestinian" isn't my term. That's what they are called. They are also some of the kindest, most generous people I've ever met. Yes, often times they resort to violence, which only makes the situation worse. But that certainly doesn't excuse the violations committed by Israel. It is an apartheid state.
wbt5845
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There are a lot of things the IDF has had to do to protect their people. There would be no wall or checkpoints except for the suicide bombers. There would be no burning of under brush and cover except for sniper fire that comes from them. Israel does not do these things because they're fun - they do it because they have to.

Once again, the "Palestinians" have no one to blame but themselves and their former rulers in Jordan for their situation. The suicide bombers continue to this day. The PNA needs to get their stuff together and help their people.
Martin Q. Blank
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You're not supposed to respond after he says "have a great day."
Martin Q. Blank
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Nice pics of southern California by the way.
PacifistAg
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Now, I plan on starting a thread on the school issue, but here's a great example:

We escorted these children to their kindergarten. We have to escort them because settlers in Hebron have a tendency to attack them:


Here's the path that they have to use. The clean, paved side is Israeli-only. The garbage strewn side is Palestinian only:



In the Old City district, the Israeli government put an illegal settlement along Shuhada St (closing the major Palestinian artery in the area, and forcing the closure of hundreds of shops). The settlement is on top of the shop area. You can see the fencing that was put up simply to catch the debris that settlers would routinely throw down onto the Palestinians below:



But yeah, a war was lost 50 years ago, so that's fine, right?
PacifistAg
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Quote:

There would be no burning of under brush and cover except for sniper fire that comes from them.
The burning of the vegetation in the Jordan Valley has nothing to do with sniper fire.


Quote:

Israel does not do these things because they're fun - they do it because they have to.
No, they really don't. And the wall that they are building doesn't even run along the border with the occupied territories. It cuts in and through the territories, conveniently leaving water sources on the Israeli side.
PacifistAg
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Martin Q. Blank said:

Nice pics of southern California by the way.
Moth to flame. Like clockwork. Be gone troll.
wbt5845
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So why does the IDF put up all these walls? For fun? Jollies? Keeping Jews from getting to the "Palestinians"? Or perhaps...... just maybe........ one of these groups has a long history of attacking and killing the other?
PacifistAg
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wbt5845 said:

So why does the IDF put up all these walls? For fun? Jollies? Keeping Jews from getting to the "Palestinians"? Or perhaps...... just maybe........ one of these groups has a long history of attacking and killing the other?
They both have a long history of attacking and killing each other. They put the walls up because walls to separate are common in an apartheid state.

It was eerie going to Yad Vashem in Jerusalem to see the horrors committed against the Jews in WW2, only to go into the West Bank and see many of the same tactics being used by the Israelis against the Palestinians. As our Israeli guide at Yad Vashem, who was a FT guide there, told us "shortly after WW2, the mantra went from "never again" to "never again to us", and they've used that for 70 years to justify their behavior".
agie95
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It is a fact, that basically any Muslim populated area in Israel is a dump. They don't care about the area they live in. They do the dumping themselves.

PacifistAg
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brd79 said:



Noticed lots of trees and green in the backgrounds and borders of your Palestinian shots. Was this how close the Jewish settlement was? Looks to be the same town.
Yes, the settlement is right next to the village.

We met with an organization called Roots. It is a Jewish man and a Palestinian man that work to bring people from both sides together. The Jewish man, Hanan, told us about a time he was driving 2 baptist preachers around while they visited the Holy Land. As they drove down the road, they saw a hitchhiker and Hanan pulled over to give him a ride. After they dropped him off, the baptist preachers were amazed. They couldn't believe he picked up a hitchhiker. He told us that as he said "I always pick up hitchhikers" he realized that was a lie. In that moment, he realized he only picked up Israeli hitchhikers.

He said that, in that moment, he realized that Palestinian people were like background scenery to him. They were like trees in the background of a movie. You're kind of aware that they are there, but you pay no attention. It wasn't until he sought out a group similar to the one he works with now that he actually talked to a Palestinian for the first time in his life. The man was in his 50's. It was through talking with them that he saw their humanity, and it revolutionized how he saw things.

The biggest problem, outside the settlements which is the real issue for the Palestinians we met, is that neither side ever sits down and talks to the other. They live next door to each other but are so completely ignorant of what the other is like. It's when they talk to each other face-to-face that they realize that they have the same fears and prejudices against the other that the other side has towards them.

That's what gave me a lot of hope. The fact that so many of these groups promoting nonviolence are joint efforts of Palestinians and Israelis.
PacifistAg
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agie95 said:

It is a fact, that basically any Muslim populated area in Israel is a dump. They don't care about the area they live in. They do the dumping themselves.
This is just false. Every single evening we watched Palestinians out on the streets sweeping up their areas in Hebron. They do that without the same waste resources that are afforded to the settlers.
Marco Esquandolas
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Martin Q. Blank said:

Nice pics of southern California by the way.


This man is a Christian, folks. Laughable.
Marco Esquandolas
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wbt5845 said:

Hey RetiredAg - I know you are passionate about this and I respect that.

I work with the IDF and am passionate about the Jews right to exist. And the fact their neighbors have tried to kill every Jewish man, woman and child several times in the last few decades.

In Israel, those of Jordanian descent can live and work and own property. Hell, they can be elected to office. In Jordan, you cannot be a citizen, work, or own property if you are Jewish.

Seriously, there is no comparison of the human rights afforded by Israel vs. the other Middle Eastern countries. There are 1.7 MM "Palestinians" (to use your term) living in Israel. There are 0 Jews living in Jordan. There are 0 Jews living in Saudi Arabia. There are less than 50 Jews living in Syria.


You are part of the problem.
PacifistAg
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You know, that's one thing I don't get. The organization I went with, Christian Peacemaker Teams, is quick to condemn violence on both sides. Yes they make a point of standing with the oppressed, but we really work with groups to promote nonviolent resistance. But what I don't get is how so many American Christians are quick to turn a blind eye to evil simply because it's being committed by Israel.

Especially when there are as many Palestinian Christians as there are that are being oppressed on a daily basis.

Marco Esquandolas
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Thanks for typing all that up, Retired. Too bad your posts attract the biggest azzholes on the forum.
PacifistAg
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Marco Esquandolas said:

Thanks for typing all that up, Retired. Too bad your posts attract the biggest azzholes on the forum.
Thanks. Perhaps I'm a bit naive in thinking that surely nobody can see this and at least not feel some sympathy for the Palestinian people. It took me an hour of being in Hebron to realize just how wrong the American media narrative about this conflict is. I thought surely the pictures would help convey what I witnessed and wasn't expecting a "might makes right" response out of the gate. I have so much more that I plan on posting over the coming week or so. I gave a presentation at my church that last 45 minutes and I had to cut out over an hour of additional information. It was such an eye-opening experience.

I fully expected MQB's response because that's what he does. Every. Single. Time.
agie95
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Every time I have been to Israel, each of the areas that are Muslim populated are dumps. Every time.

How can there be sympathy for people who continually hurl bombs at Israel? They want to kill, destroy anything Jewish. It is on video after video. How many thousands of tunnels have been destroyed from Gaza into Israel? No, I don't have any sympathy.

For the most part those who live in Israel that is Israeli controlled, they like living as it is. They like the Israeli control b/c it is a far better life than they would otherwise live. I have had a number of Palistinian's tell me so.

Israel is a land that belongs to the Jewish people.
Marco Esquandolas
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RetiredAg said:

You know, that's one thing I don't get. The organization I went with, Christian Peacemaker Teams, is quick to condemn violence on both sides. Yes they make a point of standing with the oppressed, but we really work with groups to promote nonviolent resistance. But what I don't get is how so many American Christians are quick to turn a blind eye to evil simply because it's being committed by Israel.

Especially when there are as many Palestinian Christians as there are that are being oppressed on a daily basis.




They dont give a rats ass about justice and oppression even though their prophets were so emphatic in Scripture about how much God cares about such things. They hide behind a convenient blind loyalty to political state violence, justifying it to themselves in the name of God.

You know, I can honestly say I don't know a single person who, after visiting that area, doesn't return appalled at Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, and that includes both Jews and non-Jews.
PacifistAg
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agie95 said:

Every time I have been to Israel, each of the areas that are Muslim populated are dumps. Every time.
Not having access to adequate waste disposal doesn't mean they don't care about their areas. Do you not understand how even the logistics of getting trash out of the area are insanely difficult, given the sheer number of military checkpoints that the people are routinely harassed at? Like I said, they do what they can. They are out there every evening sweeping up.
agie95
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I am raising my hand. I was not apalled. Jewish lives are threatened everyday by the so-called peaceful Palestinians. Does every Palestinian threaten a Jewish life? No, but you can't weed through those that do, therefore you have to build walls and such. Jews are forbidden in certain parts of the West Bank b/c they would be killed if they went there.
agie95
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Why are the checkpoints necessary though? B/c the people as a whole threaten to kill Jews.
PacifistAg
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It was telling just how angry settlers got at us simply for escorting children to school. I was physically assaulted by a settler, literally no more than 5 minutes after a Palestinian child ran up to me and gave me a hug. It was the first time this child ever saw me.

PacifistAg
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agie95 said:

Why are the checkpoints necessary though? B/c the people as a whole threaten to kill Jews.
No, the people as a whole don't threaten to kill the Jews. For a Palestinian to go to Ibrahimi mosque, he had to go through 3 checkpoints. The last two are entirely unnecessary. It's a simple, yet grotesque show of force. Why are there so many checkpoints around Ibrahimi mosque? Because a Jewish settler went in and gunned down 29 Muslims during prayers. Yet the restrictions get placed on the Palestinians. Baruch Goldstein is a murderer, yet the boot gets clamped down even tighter on the people he murdered.
 
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