agie95 said:

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I am raising my hand. I was not apalled. Jewish lives are threatened everyday by the so-called peaceful Palestinians. Does every Palestinian threaten a Jewish life? No, but you can't weed through those that do, therefore you have to build walls and such. Jews are forbidden in certain parts of the West Bank b/c they would be killed if they went there.

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Yes, we also saw displays of similar reasoning at Yad Vashem when they talked of the ghettos created for the Jews.

RetiredAg said:

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Ah, so you believe in moral relativism? Got it. Might makes right. Losing a war 50 years ago means you can be oppressed today.

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So why do you only pick on Israel and not demand, for example, that China recognize Tibetan independence? Or that Russia give Karelia back to Finland and Koenigsberg back to Germany?

commando2004 said:

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RetiredAg said:

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Ah, so you believe in moral relativism? Got it. Might makes right. Losing a war 50 years ago means you can be oppressed today.

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So why do you only pick on Israel and not demand, for example, that China recognize Tibetan independence? Or that Russia give Karelia back to Finland and Koenigsberg back to Germany?

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Because I didn't go to those places and do not have any "on-the-ground" knowledge of what is going on over there. I'd be commenting out of ignorance. Heck, I have no idea what Karelia or Koenigsberg are. I did go to the West Bank and had the opportunity to see with my own eyes what is going on. Does that make me an expert? Absolutely not. But I did see enough to know that the narrative we're fed over here is simply false. All I can do is comment on what I saw.

Do the Palestinian people often resort to violence? Yes. Are they wrong for doing so? Yes. Do the Israeli people often resort to violence? Yes. Are they wrong for doing so? Yes. One side, however, holds all the power. As the father of an Israeli soldier that was killed in a suicide bombing told us, "don't go back and be pro-Israel. Don't go back and be pro-Palestine. Go back and be pro-peace." If I'm failing to do that, then my apologies. I believe I've been consistent in condemning all acts of violence. My prayer isn't just that the Palestinian people are freed from this oppression. My prayer is also that the Israeli people are freed from what is oppressing them and driving them to oppress others. I think both sides are enslaved.

I would think that any regular poster here would know me well enough by now to know that I'm consistent in my condemnation of violence and oppression though. But progress can never be made as long as we act like one side is blameless and the other side is guilty. Progress can never be made as long as we believe might makes right.

We met some amazing Israeli people, so I don't want that to be lost in all this. There are people on both sides that genuinely want this conflict to end. There are people on both sides, especially among the political class, that want this conflict to continue. From what we heard from both sides, neither trusts their political leaders at all.

agie95 said:

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I am raising my hand. I was not apalled. Jewish lives are threatened everyday by the so-called peaceful Palestinians. Does every Palestinian threaten a Jewish life? No, but you can't weed through those that do, therefore you have to build walls and such. Jews are forbidden in certain parts of the West Bank b/c they would be killed if they went there.

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Spare me the boilerplate.

agie95 said:

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Why are the checkpoints necessary though? B/c the people as a whole threaten to kill Jews.

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Your israel fetish is painfully obvious here and in every thread you have ever posted in.

You have no moral authority from which to argue.

commando2004 said:

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RetiredAg said:

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Ah, so you believe in moral relativism? Got it. Might makes right. Losing a war 50 years ago means you can be oppressed today.

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So why do you only pick on Israel and not demand, for example, that China recognize Tibetan independence? Or that Russia give Karelia back to Finland and Koenigsberg back to Germany?

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Retired gave a good answer but there are other good reasons to point out Israel's hypocrisy and oppression, e.g., the fact that the narrative and information we receive in this country about what happens over there has been highly one sided and it is always worthwhile to chip away at false conventional wisdom with truth. Then there is the fact that we send millions and millions of taxpayer dollars to support Israel. It's a unique relationship our country has w that country.

wbt5845 said:

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When you start a war and lose, there are consequences.

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Did not read thread, but this is one of the most uninformed posts I've ever seen on G&A. Americans are embarrassingly ignorant. In Jesus' name, too.

RetiredAg said:

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agie95 said:

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Yes, we also saw displays of similar reasoning at Yad Vashem when they talked of the ghettos created for the Jews.

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One, terribly insensitive. Two, totally different situation. Jews weren't oppressing or killing people for not being Jews....Jews were oppressed and killed for just being Jews..

Those stats are a bit skewed. Yes, I realize that during operations more Palestinians are killed. Why is this? B/c they continually are shooting rockets into Israel. What is Israel supposed to do? Just take it? I don't think so. I cannot be sympathetic to a group who continually makes things worse for themselves. It is not about land, it is about getting rid of the Jews entirely. Therefore, Israel has to go in with a heavy hand every once in a while. Most of those deaths are in Gaza, not the West Bank.

My statement was regarding your everyday type of killing. Palestinians on a every day basis kill or injure more Jews than Jews Palestinians.

You can be sympathetic all you want, but remember who started the 6 day war. Remember who continually shoots rockets into other people's living spaces. Remember the suicide bombers. Remember the chants of killing all Jews. Remember the supposedly peaceful ships bringing supplies to Gaza, yet they have loads of military supplies - guns, rockets, etc.

The Israeli army actually will send notices to people that a place is about to be bombed. They cannot help it if people do not heed. In operations/wars there is always collateral damage, but the Israeli Army goes out of its way to give warnings to citizens. Do the Palestinians do this? No.

I cannot and will not have any sympathy for such people.

7thGenTexan said:

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wbt5845 said:

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When you start a war and lose, there are consequences.

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Did not read thread, but this is one of the most uninformed posts I've ever seen on G&A. Americans are embarrassingly ignorant. In Jesus' name, too.

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What is uninformed about it? Or does it just feel good to make broad, generalized statements?

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Those stats are a bit skewed. Yes, I realize that during operations more Palestinians are killed. Why is this? B/c they continually are shooting rockets into Israel. What is Israel supposed to do? Just take it? I don't think so. I cannot be sympathetic to a group who continually makes things worse for themselves. It is not about land, it is about getting rid of the Jews entirely. Therefore, Israel has to go in with a heavy hand every once in a while. Most of those deaths are in Gaza, not the West Bank.

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We don't get to just ignore the stats that don't support our position. As for the rocket attacks, since 2001, they've killed 50 Israelis. I understand Israel wanting to respond, but anyone can see their response is grossly out of proportion. But, as you mentioned, most of that is related to Gaza which is a whole different mess. My posts have been in regards to the West Bank. You know how many settlers were killed in the West Bank in 2012? Zero. The 7 year average is 5/yr. Is that too many? Of course. Does that pale in comparison to the number of West Bank Palestinians killed by Israelis? Absolutely.

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You can be sympathetic all you want, but remember who started the 6 day war. Remember who continually shoots rockets into other people's living spaces. Remember the suicide bombers. Remember the chants of killing all Jews. Remember the supposedly peaceful ships bringing supplies to Gaza, yet they have loads of military supplies - guns, rockets, etc.

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I am sympathetic because I saw what's happening to them now. We don't get to keep brutalizing people because of something that happened 50 years ago. Using that reasoning, the Palestinian people are justified in their actions because of the land that was stolen in '48. But talking about sins of the past doesn't help the situation. I'm concerned about men like Daoud Nasser, a Palestinian Christian that is constantly having his land attacked by settlers and the IDF. He has 20 demolition orders for his property and has had to spent over 100,000 shekels fighting these orders in court. The IDF destroyed 1,500 fruit trees on his land. He replanted 4,000 with the help of American Jews. His family has owned the land since 1916, along with papers detailing ownership. He left his land for 2 days and came back to find settlers had opened a road across his property. The IDF has cut the road that leads to his property, and he now has settlements on every hill surrounding him. He wasn't part of the 6 day war. He hasn't taken up arms against anyone. He has never fired a rocket. He preaches nonviolence. He has a sign at the entrance of his land that says "We refuse to be enemies". Yet, it's the Israelis that insist on making him an enemy. It's the Israelis that are trying to drive him out, not the other way around.

Oh, and you mention the chants, yet on 3 separate occasions, I saw walls with spray paint on them that read "Death to Muslims". One was on the wall of a Palestinian kindergarten. Neither side is innocent. But only one side has power. That's the point.

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The Israeli army actually will send notices to people that a place is about to be bombed. They cannot help it if people do not heed. In operations/wars there is always collateral damage, but the Israeli Army goes out of its way to give warnings to citizens. Do the Palestinians do this? No.

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Wow. Just wow. Human beings are not "collateral damage".

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I cannot and will not have any sympathy for such people.

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Then don't call yourself a follower of Christ. Because our entire faith is centered on a Man that not only had sympathy for His enemies, but willingly gave His lives for them.

agie95 said:

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Palestinians are peaceful right?

Peaceful? lol

Kids show

Another one
Plus many many more

Any help with these people just aids them in their continued violence and hatred towards the Jews.

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You do realize that both sides can post these types of videos, right?

Your bias is blinding you. You refuse to see Israel's complicity in what is going on.

It is real simple. If the Palestinians would stop shooting rockets and digging tunnels into Israel, then the operations would stop.

and yours. This continues to show your anti-semitism. You rank right up there with old Golden Mouth and Martin Luther.

agie95 said:

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You don't understand Scripture. An enemy wasn't someone trying to kill you, but someone who was a neighborhood who for what ever reason was against you.

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Really? Because I'm pretty sure they were trying to kill Christ and what did He do? He prayed for their forgiveness and willingly gave His life for them.

But if you are going to start this nonsense of "you don't understand Scripture", then we're done here. You, once again, show that you simply do not listen to other sides. You ignore and preach.

agie95 said:

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and yours. This continues to show your anti-semitism. You rank right up there with old Golden Mouth and Martin Luther.

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This right here is a great example of the problem. Criticism of the obvious evil committed by Israel = "anti-semitism". I've been consistent in my statements that both sides bear blame in the violence. I've condemned the violence on both sides. You excuse Israeli violence because of your prejudices. But, when criticism is met with baseless charges of anti-semitism, then there's no discussion to be had.

Just, please, don't present your lack of sympathy as anything remotely Christ-like. This will be my last post to you, as this is clearly a fruitless effort with the likes of you.

Most Christians in this country don't give a flip about the Palestinians. They don't care because it's obvious they've brought their plight upon themselves.

So I guess you're saying most Christians in this country aren't Christians?

BTW - there's a path forward for the Palestinians out of their situation. Stop violence in the name of Allah. Recognize Israel's right to exist.

wbt5845 said:

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Most Christians in this country don't give a flip about the Palestinians. They don't care because it's obvious they've brought their plight upon themselves.

So I guess you're saying most Christians in this country aren't Christians?

BTW - there's a path forward for the Palestinians out of their situation. Stop violence in the name of Allah. Recognize Israel's right to exist.

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If they don't care about the plight of the oppressed, then they are certainly not reflecting Christ. My views on the state of Americanized Christianity are no secret though. Also, since when do Christians only care about the marginalized only if they didn't bring "their plight upon themselves"? That's not a Christian perspective.

Also, I never once met a Palestinian that believes Israel should cease to exist. Not once. Typically when they talk about the "right to exist", it's in relation to the Nakba. Their position is that Israel had no right to take their land in the first place. But they don't promote ethnic cleansing to drive them out. Of course, ethnic cleansing is exactly what the Israelis are engaging in....at least according to actual Israelis that we spoke to.

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BTW - there's a path forward for the Palestinians out of their situation. Stop violence in the name of Allah.

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BTW, this is a myth. All violence could stop today and it will get the Palestinians no closer to ending the apartheid state they live under. The Israelis will continue with the illegal settlements. The Palestinian people won't get their land back. They will still be forced to live under different sets of laws.

As people on both sides told us, the only way change is going to come is from outside pressure through movements such as BDS or the ICC charging Israeli leadership with war crimes. The settlements and unlawful transfer of prisoners are considered war crimes and neither side denies these things are taking place.

agie95 said:

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The problem is that is not their land. God gave that land to the Jews, not the Palestinians.

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Says you. Buddha gave it to Jim Preston of South Dakota.

Says the Bible, not me. Buddha is a pagan god that does not exist.

I was taught in my basic weapons and tactics course that you never close off an enemy's avenue of retreat completely because he will fight to the death and increase casualties on both sides unecessarily. Instead you give him an avenue of retreat you can control and attrit him as he withdraws or until he surrenders.

The reality of this situation is happening in Palestine. If you put people in a cage and poke them with sticks eventually they will act like animals. They will be like the surrounded enemy and fight to the death. It's bad warfighting; it's worse political policy; it's inexcusable morality.

God may have given that land to the Jews. But I am not Jewish and I see no reason for the United States to be beholden to the desires of Israel. And I cannot support what I see happening there.

The citizens of our nation would never condone our government doing what Israel does. There is a very strange relationship between American Evangelicals and Israel, and a lot of it is basically aligning / rationalizing religious beliefs to government policy.

RetiredAg is 100% right.

Also, from the only religious standard that matters Jews and Muslims are so close as to be effectively identical. They both have distorted views of God that are not compatible with Christianity. Why most evangelicals blindly view one side as bad and the other as good I will never understand.

RetiredAg said:

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BTW - there's a path forward for the Palestinians out of their situation. Stop violence in the name of Allah.

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As people on both sides told us, the only way change is going to come is from outside pressure through movements such as BDS or the ICC charging Israeli leadership with war crimes.

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If that is true, then it is never going to change. The State of Israel has come too close to being exterminated too many times for them to give two flips what the international community thinks. And as long as there's a sizable Jewish community in this country, the US's support will not waver.